614ce 2012 and 2008 models and playability question

[michaelw]

now, ya got me thinkin, Gary
uh-oh
hmm ... possible year-model weight differences (614c/ce)

here goes nuthin

96 & 97 models 614c -
no headstock binding on the 96
mahogany preNT neck
(less dense than hard rock maple, likely more hand-sanding than NT)
3 ring ab rosette (narrower ring of ab, larger diameter rings)
gold Grover tuners/gold buttons (heavier than Taylor tuners)
no electronics or matrix active UST (no onboard preamp)
no neck heel strap pin (standard)
heel block label (thru early 98) - smaller than soundhole label

98-early 00 614ce
fishman prefix blender pre-amp

later 00
NT neck (shims/additional fretboard extension bolt)

01-02
hard rock maple NT neck
single ring ab rosette vs 3 ring
fishman stereo blender pre-amp

03-early 04
early 03 grover tuners, then Taylors
2AA ES (lighter than Fishman on-board ?)

late 04-06
standard II bracing w/relief rout
around 06 - electrostatically applied finish (thinner ?)

07 - early 10
9V ES, 2 body sensors
scarfjoint headstock (less surface area than fingerjoint? less glue?)
bridge plate string ground/fuse link
change in wood thicknesssing (especially back) 09 (?)

10-11
9V ES, 1 body sensor

12
engraved pearloid twisted oval fretmarkers w/inlay on 16th fret
(lighter than MOP 'leaf' ?)

flat-sawn quilted maple is likely not quite as dense
as quarter sawn flamed/curly/tiger-stripe
2 pc back has single centerstrip. 3 pc back has 2 (more glue ?)

SMO options (modify-a-model)
gotoh 510 tuners with metal buttons (heavier than Taylors ?)
bone nut & saddle vs Tusq (bone less dense ?)
short-scale

finish (transparent stain, edgeburst, sunburst, vintageburst) -
W&S V69 pg28 (3 to 6 oz 'paint' tobaccoburst X12ce top only)
depending on how much remains (hand-sprayed) after sanding, vintageburst
body & neck would seem to have the 'most' finish, relatively speaking

factory cases -
96-97 SKB case standard, much lighter than 5 ply el cajon
made pink poodle with leather handle (optional upgrade) -
certain year model cases were much heavier than others
01-early 06 monkey butt
07- early 11 3 ply tecate
late 11- 12 redesigned case

BTO options
figured (flamed) maple neck (more dense than no-figure ?)
CV bracing (less mass ? greater rigidity ?)
adi vs sitka bracing

with the relatively 'standard' stuff in mind ...
perhaps an extreme-performance, ultra-lightweight 614ce 'R' -
A grade quilt sides & back (2 pc, no centerstrip purfling)
all satin finish (open pore, no stain, varnish preferable)
mahogany neck (1 11/16" nut/slim carve)
short scale
rosewood headstock overlay (less dense than ebony)
ivoroid headstock logo
chrome Taylor tuners (no gold plating)
no end pin installed (tail block hole drilled/loose chrome end pin)
no heel strap button
maple rosette (lighter than ab or plastic ?)
white fiber binding (no black dye)
bone nut/saddle
loose pickguard (clear)
no electronics

alternate -
12-fret with slotted headstock
(improved aerodynamics for better handling )

aftermarket performance 'upgrades' -
Tusq or titanium bridge pins
carbon fiber truss rod cover
titanium truss rod cover screws
Gotoh stealth tuners with black buttons (18:1 open back, 11.9g each :O )
Rohrbacher titanium strings (likely not the best choice, tone-wise)
fretwire (TBD)
h.m. mcintyre feather passive p'up

karura carbon fiber case -
heavier than accord case (5.2 kg vs 3.0)
but less deflection under compression (2200 lb)

sorry for the spec overload

i used to be a car (5.0 mustang drag race) nut & i was
a Ford tech for several years (specs were the 'norm') -
less weight (88 notchback, no power options), goes faster ...
run whatcha brung & hope ya brung enuff (heh)

[Giraku]

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html
This ought to keep you busy reading for about a week. :-)

Thanks, tamiller1952.
It's an incredible site with tons of information.
I will try improving nut slots on my guitar (one on the W14ce is catching the strings a bit).

[egkor]

@Michaelw,

Wow, posts like yours that detail differences, running changes, updates in models over the years should be made a sticky/FAQ.  That's the kind of data I look for when I find a used Taylor and want to understand how it compares to a current model specs/build.

Actually I would like to see that on the Official Taylor web site. Having it here as a sticky would be fantastic.  I have made buying decisions based on @michaelw Taylor model timeline data.

[michaelw]

right back @ cha Gary
the only way was i able find running changes in relatively recent specs (98-current) was when
it was still possible to access previous iterations of Taylor's site & that came to an end June 9th -
the model dating gave a good bit info regarding the phase-in of new models, Fadal CNC, UV finish,
new series, NT neck, revoicing & all serial #'s from 74-00 & series/models were archived & the
main revamps i recall were 98-00, 01-03, 04-06, 07-11 (i'm sure there were other revisions too)

to me, the time-line seemed like a 'virtual extension' of the 30th anniversary book -
i don't believe it was ever quite finished (from 74-04), but the stories, pics & factoids were cool

older hard copies of W&S, catalogs & price lists help too -
i didn't know the retail on the babyT has yet to change (in 15 years)

one other change i remember, but it could  very minutely affect weight, is the 96-99 models
had the bridge pin holes in an arc ('smiley' bridge), rather than them being arallel to the saddle -
i believe the distances from the E & e pins to the saddle were the same, but the D & G were
furthest away & then the  A & B (just a little more length on the D, G, A, & B strings ... gnat eyelashes )

there are some little things that 'stand out' on some series, provided the specs were 'standard'
(no options when new) & no upgrades made later - 96 514c had chrome Grovers, & 97s had gold
hmm ... just found an interesting link to a 97 514cw LTD  (rosewood binding, green purfling)

also, i did a little looking & found a really great handout from Stanford

thanks for the heads-up, Gary

[egkor]

Update:

I weighed both 614ce models, a 2008 and a 2012.

2008: 3.5 lbs

2012: 2.8 lbs

Comments:  Unscientific.  Each guitar hung from luggage scale via simple string loop @ headstock.  Scale is "cheap" analog dial type. Each guitar is configured as similar as possible, for example, each has same gauge stringset Elixir 80/20 Nano lights, Duracell 9V installed in each.

All this does is confirm my feeling that the 2008 model I am evaluatiing is heavier than the 2012 model I already have.  I am not saying one is better than the other, just pointing out and confirming a difference.  I'm not focused on exact weights at this time, just (relative?) difference in weights.  As long as they sound good then for my purposes "normal" weights don't matter.  It did come as surprise in handling both guitars in A/B testing and get that "Wow this one is heavier than that one" feeling.  At least now I can confirm that feeling with some evidence. 

Edit:  I realized too, I had the pickguard removed from the 2012 since it is "new" and the top hasn't darkened yet.  The 2008 still has its pickguard.
 

[Giraku]

I weighed both 614ce models, a 2008 and a 2012.

2008: 3.5 lbs

2012: 2.8 lb.

Wow, that's a big difference. 2008 is 25% heavier than 2012.
Are the woods on 2012 milled thinner? Does anyone know about the actual thickness of the production specs (maybe different year by year and wood by wood)?

[Giraku]

The action at the nut has more to do with making your fingers hurt than any other factor in my opinion.  That is excluding ridiculously high action at the saddle or a bowed neck.   You can check it by pressing the string down to the fretboard between the second and third fret and holding it, then push the string down on the first fret and see if there is a difference.  You should only have about the thickness of a sheet of paper between the first fret and the string when it is fretted at the third fret.  The only right way to check it is with a good gauge, but you can eyeball it and tell if there is a marked difference.

Thanks, Tom.
I also suspected that and checked the action at the nut. It was not identical but more or less the same.
In fact, I felt the same difference even with a capo on 1st or 2nd fret, which should make this difference even.
So I'm still puzzled.

Now I got a feeler gauge, so I measured the action at the nut.
To my surprise, the harder-to-play guitar indeed had a higher action on 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings.
I could not see the difference without using the feeler gauge.
I also bought a set of nut files from StewMac.com. My first nut adjustment is going to be a project for this weekend.

[tamiller1952]

The action at the nut has more to do with making your fingers hurt than any other factor in my opinion.  That is excluding ridiculously high action at the saddle or a bowed neck.   You can check it by pressing the string down to the fretboard between the second and third fret and holding it, then push the string down on the first fret and see if there is a difference.  You should only have about the thickness of a sheet of paper between the first fret and the string when it is fretted at the third fret.  The only right way to check it is with a good gauge, but you can eyeball it and tell if there is a marked difference.

Thanks, Tom.
I also suspected that and checked the action at the nut. It was not identical but more or less the same.
In fact, I felt the same difference even with a capo on 1st or 2nd fret, which should make this difference even.
So I'm still puzzled.

Now I got a feeler gauge, so I measured the action at the nut.
To my surprise, the harder-to-play guitar indeed had a higher action on 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings.
I could not see the difference without using the feeler gauge.
I also bought a set of nut files from StewMac.com. My first nut adjustment is going to be a project for this weekend.

Take it slowly, and file small amounts.  It's very easy to get too deep and create a buzz.  As long as there is a gap you'll probably be alright, but we're talking thousandths here, not 32nds.  File a little, re-tension the strings and check, then file a little more if needed.  No need to remove the strings, just loosen it a little and lift it over and set it behind an adjacent string.  You can use the feeler gauge at first, but allow yourself around .008 and make sure the feeler gauge is tight against the nut, and the file is parallel to the fretboard when deepening the slots.

[Giraku]

Take it slowly, and file small amounts.  It's very easy to get too deep and create a buzz.  As long as there is a gap you'll probably be alright, but we're talking thousandths here, not 32nds.  File a little, re-tension the strings and check, then file a little more if needed.  No need to remove the strings, just loosen it a little and lift it over and set it behind an adjacent string.  You can use the feeler gauge at first, but allow yourself around .008 and make sure the feeler gauge is tight against the nut, and the file is parallel to the fretboard when deepening the slots.

I did it just now. I did it very carefully and slowly. After working on 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings, the action at the nut is very even, about 0.006 on all 6 strings.
And I don't get any buzz. Most importantly, it has improved the playing feel quite a lot.
Thank you, Tom, for giving me courage to do this.

[michaelw]

Update:

I weighed both 614ce models, a 2008 and a 2012.

2008: 3.5 lbs

2012: 2.8 lbs

Comments:  Unscientific.  Each guitar hung from luggage scale via simple string loop @ headstock.  Scale is "cheap" analog dial type. Each guitar is configured as similar as possible, for example, each has same gauge stringset Elixir 80/20 Nano lights, Duracell 9V installed in each.

All this does is confirm my feeling that the 2008 model I am evaluatiing is heavier than the 2012 model I already have.  I am not saying one is better than the other, just pointing out and confirming a difference.  I'm not focused on exact weights at this time, just (relative?) difference in weights.  As long as they sound good then for my purposes "normal" weights don't matter.  It did come as surprise in handling both guitars in A/B testing and get that "Wow this one is heavier than that one" feeling.  At least now I can confirm that feeling with some evidence. 

Edit:  I realized too, I had the pickguard removed from the 2012 since it is "new" and the top hasn't darkened yet.  The 2008 still has its pickguard.

0.7 lb
i didn't think the pickguard would make that much of a difference

seriously though, to get a better idea, a digital scale could
come closer to showing a more accurate reading/difference -
that's over 11 ounces disparity (maybe the 08 has non-wood neck/tail blocks ) ...

i'm just wondering, if you knock lightly on the back & sides with
your knuckle, how the 08 compares to the 12 (resonance-wise)