614ce 2012 and 2008 models and playability question

[egkor]

I have a 2012 614ce, a keeper.  Very happy with it.

I found a used 2008 614ce, priced right.  I'm in a 30-day evaluation, return permitted, of the 2008.  I replaced its strings with fresh factory standard Elixir 80/20 nano lights.  I tightened the truss rod nut a bit to reduce an excessive amount of relief.

Between the new 2012 and used 2008 models, here are the differences I'm experiencing:

1)  The 2008 model is harder to play.  After a while it hurts my fingers to play it.  The 2012 model plays with less effort, and no finger pain.

2)  The 2008 model feels heavier than the 2012.  Both have a battery installed. One difference could be less/different ES hardware with the 2012 vs. 2008.  It seems to me the 2008 woodset is heavier than the 2012 woodset.

3)  The 2012 seems more alive/resonant.  I can more readily feel the bass notes through the body of the 2012 compared to the 2008.

The biggest issue, and it is a show-stopper, is (#1 above) the 2008 just hurts to play after a while.  The 2008 looks to be set up like the 2012, same neck relief, same strings.

Have you ever had this happen?  I am pretty surprised by this, and will probably be returning the 2008.

614ce, 2008 (left), 2012 (right):


2008 614ce Fretboard at Nut:


2008:


2012:

[Giraku]

I had a similar experience. Same GA body, same relief amount, same action, same strings, still quite a different playing feel; one being easy and another a chore, especially barre chords. I also want to know why. Any idea?

[tamiller1952]

The action at the nut has more to do with making your fingers hurt than any other factor in my opinion.  That is excluding ridiculously high action at the saddle or a bowed neck.   You can check it by pressing the string down to the fretboard between the second and third fret and holding it, then push the string down on the first fret and see if there is a difference.  You should only have about the thickness of a sheet of paper between the first fret and the string when it is fretted at the third fret.  The only right way to check it is with a good gauge, but you can eyeball it and tell if there is a marked difference. 

[egkor]

@tamiller,

Thanks I will do this check on both 614s!

Gary K

[Giraku]

The action at the nut has more to do with making your fingers hurt than any other factor in my opinion.  That is excluding ridiculously high action at the saddle or a bowed neck.   You can check it by pressing the string down to the fretboard between the second and third fret and holding it, then push the string down on the first fret and see if there is a difference.  You should only have about the thickness of a sheet of paper between the first fret and the string when it is fretted at the third fret.  The only right way to check it is with a good gauge, but you can eyeball it and tell if there is a marked difference.

Thanks, Tom.
I also suspected that and checked the action at the nut. It was not identical but more or less the same.
In fact, I felt the same difference even with a capo on 1st or 2nd fret, which should make this difference even.
So I'm still puzzled.

[egkor]

... You can check it by pressing the string down to the fretboard between the second and third fret and holding it, then push the string down on the first fret and see if there is a difference.  You should only have about the thickness of a sheet of paper between the first fret and the string when it is fretted at the third fret.  ...

I checked this on both the 2012 and 2008 614ce guitars.  The 2012 is as you describe (paper thickness).  The 2008 has a noticeable gap between the string and the first fret.  This is using the big E string fretted between the 2nd and 3rd fret, and testing clearance at the first fret.  Both guitars check "ok" with the small E doing the same test.

So now what, does this mean if I want to keep the used guitar and have it play easy, take it to a tech for a setup?

Thanks!

[tamiller1952]

... You can check it by pressing the string down to the fretboard between the second and third fret and holding it, then push the string down on the first fret and see if there is a difference.  You should only have about the thickness of a sheet of paper between the first fret and the string when it is fretted at the third fret.  ...

I checked this on both the 2012 and 2008 614ce guitars.  The 2012 is as you describe (paper thickness).  The 2008 has a noticeable gap between the string and the first fret.  This is using the big E string fretted between the 2nd and 3rd fret, and testing clearance at the first fret.  Both guitars check "ok" with the small E doing the same test.

So now what, does this mean if I want to keep the used guitar and have it play easy, take it to a tech for a setup?

Thanks!

Yes, unless you have a set of files and can do it yourself.  I've got a nice set of files and do a setup on all my guitars, but it's cheaper if you're only working on one to take it to a tech.  There are lots of resources to show you how to do a good job of it if you choose to do it yourself.   

[Giraku]

Yes, unless you have a set of files and can do it yourself.  I've got a nice set of files and do a setup on all my guitars, but it's cheaper if you're only working on one to take it to a tech.  There are lots of resources to show you how to do a good job of it if you choose to do it yourself.

I'm interested in doing setups by myself.
Could you share some of the resources you mentioned?
Thanks!

[michaelw]

the 08 model has the second body sensor, 'op-amps' preamp & the humbucking
dummy coil was still located underneath the fretboard extension (i believe) -
also it has a 2 piece back with amber stain back, sides & neck

the 12 model has the single body sensor, discrete amp, the 'dummy coil'
is installed on the soundboard, a 3 piece back (extra backstrip) & natural finish (no stain)

i believe there would be very little change in weight, based on these differences & that the
08 MOP 'leaf' inlays would weigh much more than the 12 engraved pearloid 'twisted ovals'

even if the 08 model was severely overhumidified, save for standing water,
the difference in weight shouldn't be substantial ... at least on paper anyways

on-the-other-hand, if a different wood thicknessing spec was phased in after the 08 model was made
then there might  be a perceptible difference (with all the other variables taken into account)

congrats on the 08
i hope that with a little work on the nut slots, it will play as easy as your 12

[tamiller1952]

Yes, unless you have a set of files and can do it yourself.  I've got a nice set of files and do a setup on all my guitars, but it's cheaper if you're only working on one to take it to a tech.  There are lots of resources to show you how to do a good job of it if you choose to do it yourself.

I'm interested in doing setups by myself.
Could you share some of the resources you mentioned?
Thanks!

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html
This ought to keep you busy reading for about a week. :-)

[cjd-player]

I agree with the nut issue above.  It does not take much difference in nut slot heights to make a guitar an effort to play versus a joy to play.  I've lowered the nut slots on all of my Taylors.  The factory setups are not always optimum, especially if they just pop in the standard prefab Tusq nut.

If you have the proper size files, its fairly easy to do using the feeler gage method with the feeler gage being the stop for the bottom of the nut slot.

Another neat trick is to use feeler gages as the slot cutters.  Pick the six feeler gages you want for the widths of the nut slots.  Then gang the six feeler gages together and use a triangular jeweler's file to file teeth in one edge of the gages, across the gage thickness.  Keep the file at an angle so that the cutting edge of each tooth is perpendicular to the edge of the gage.   File the teeth about 1/16 inch or less from each other.  When complete, you just draw these cutters through the nut slots to deepen them, using other feeler gages under the strings to stop the cutting when you reach the right depth.   If you're just doing a few guitars, this is a great inexpensive method.  Just costs you two sets of feeler gages (pretty cheap at Walmart, and a triangular jeweler's file.

[egkor]

i believe there would be very little change in weight, based on these differences & that the
08 MOP 'leaf' inlays would weigh much more than the 12 engraved pearloid 'twisted ovals'

even if the 08 model was severely overhumidified, save for standing water,
the difference in weight shouldn't be substantial ... at least on paper anyways

on-the-other-hand, if a different wood thicknessing spec was phased in after the 08 model was made
then there might  be a perceptible difference (with all the other variables taken into account)

Hi @michaelw,

I'm thinking the weight difference between the two 614ce guitars is possibly due to a natural variance in the weight of the woodsets used.  I A/B test the two guitars, changing them out frequently, and I perceive the '08 to be heavier and more "stiff", where the '12 is lighter and "looser".  However, they do sound mostly alike IMHO.

I don't think the weight difference is a humidity difference in this case.

Somewhere I have a luggage scale, where you hang the luggage on the scale to measure.  I think I can make that work with the guitars.  I plan to do that and I will post the results.

Thanks!

-Gary K

[egkor]

I agree with the nut issue above.  ...

Thanks @cjd-player!  I think I'm going to take it to my "go to" techs which is a Taylor authorized sales dealer and repair shop.

Thanks again! 

[michaelw]

Hi @michaelw,

I'm thinking the weight difference between the two 614ce guitars is possibly due to a natural variance in the weight of the woodsets used.  I A/B test the two guitars, changing them out frequently, and I perceive the '08 to be heavier and more "stiff", where the '12 is lighter and "looser".  However, they do sound mostly alike IMHO.

I don't think the weight difference is a humidity difference in this case.

Somewhere I have a luggage scale, where you hang the luggage on the scale to measure.  I think I can make that work with the guitars.  I plan to do that and I will post the results.

Thanks!

-Gary K

hi gary,
if nothing else, the 08 614ce should be lighter than the 615ce you had previously

in terms of the luggage scale hanging, i would suggest weighing a case then
weighing each of the guitars in the same case & subtracting the case weight -
also using some sort of retention device on the scale hanger & heavily padding the area
below where the guitar will hang & keeping some hands very close to the guitar may
help prevent potential mishaps ... luggage scale, hanging & a 614ce (me, a little nervous)

[egkor]

@michaelw,

I hear you! 

I visualize it like this:  I can make a loop of string and loop it on the headstock/tuners in some manner so that the loop will be what I hang on the luggage scale.  You know how you see some new display guitars hung on the wall on a hook using a leather strap attached across the top 2 tuner buttons/shafts of the peg head.  Mine would be the string loop, but same idea.

I would do the weighing on a padded/carpeted floor.  I don't expect there to be a mishap.  I might try it first on the least costly guitar in the place, a beginner Fender (Squire?) acoustic that was maybe $89 new.

I'm now actually curious abouts weights of different guitar models, even of the same model but different years.