12-string question

[CoryB]

I just got a 562ce V-class (NGD post coming soon) and have a Taylor question.

It’s common to find recommendations on Martin, Guild, etc. boards to tune the guitar down a half or full step to help prevent bellying of the top, bridge separation or necks needing resets. Is this true for a Taylor 12-string as well? I know the neck reset is not as much of a problem due to the bolt-on neck, but what about the other concerns?

Thanks for any advice here.

[prezmc]

I'm sure there are 12 string owners that will chime in, but I would point out that your new guitar has the newer V brace.  When you look at how that lays out under the top, vs X brace, I would anticipate that its stronger in that regard.  Both brace arms pass right through the area that would traditionally bulge up.

[TaylorGirl]

I have owned 4 Taylor 12 strings, even one with a cedar top.....a GS, a GC, a DN, and a Jumbo. Taylor knows what they are doing with their designs and what they can take. I never tuned down any of mine....no problems whatsoever. I even asked about the one with the cedar top in the "Ask Bob" column of W&S. He responded saying, don't worry, just tune it normally and it will be fine (basically). If you want to detune, it's your choice, I'm just saying it's not necessary.

[DennisG]

I agree with Susie's post that Taylor 12-string guitars are built to be tuned to concert pitch ... without incurring any damage.  One thing I would add is that there is another reason to tune a 12-string down a half or full step: to slightly slacken the strings, thus lowering the string tension, making the guitar even more comfortable to play.  I always tuned my 12-string down a full step (D-d).  And if I needed the guitar to be at concert pitch, I just put a capo on the second fret.

[Earl]

I owned a 354-LTD twelve string for several years.  It almost always was tuned up to standard E-e pitch, with no issues at all.  They can take it, assuming normal light gauge strings (47-10).  Tuning down a half step or a whole step makes it easier to play, but then you have to capo to "play well with others".   

[Edward]

Hey Cory,

Zero concerns whatsoever about Taylor's 12 strings exhibiting problems tuned to standard.  Not only have I had my '08 tuned to standard since then, I have not once, ever, heard or read any maladies reported on any Taylor 12er.  Anecdotal, to be sure, but contrast this with the numerous issues reported with other 12ers I (and doubtless others) have heard/experienced over the decades. 

Moreover, I love 12s, but never owned one until this Taylor because every 12er I had my hands on back in the day never played half as well as a Taylor, and always seemed to exhibit this or that problem, and this even when tuned down a half.  This has been my personal experience, so take it fwiw.  But it was this continual "let down" with 12s that prevented me from ever owning one, despite how good many sounded.  So when I got my hands on this one Taylor back then, whooaaa ...it was an eye opener and a game changer.  Fast forward to now, and that guitar not only plays just as well as back then, but just as well as today's Taylor 12s, which is to say better than every other 12er I've personally had hands on.  All imo and meager experience, mind you, but you did ask

Enjoy that 12 with abandon ...and post pics, will ya?!! 

Edward

[CoryB]

Great! Thanks for all of the encouraging replies. I had a Martin 12-string a few years back and pretty much everyone said to tune it down.

I understand that it will make it easier to play but I’ve only got 12 frets to the body already so I’ll try it as-is for a while and see what happens.

[donlyn]

Bad habits, or is that just nun-sence or too much caution?

I've owned 12 strings since the 60s. Learned a long time ago to tune them down. Used to be from 'E' to 'D'. With the newer 12 string guitars nowadays, it's from 'E' to 'D#'.

Something about an ounce of prevention . . .

I will admit, it may be mostly just a habit, but see last (unfinished) sentence.

I also like the sound and ease of play at D#. Or to put it another way, I guess I'm also just used to it.

I use a G7th Newport 12 string capo with the compensated string pad to capo '1' and bring the pitch back up to 'standard', or 'E', if needed. There is no need to re-tune your guitar when using this capo, either putting it on or taking it off. But as you may infer, I mostly just play mine at 'D#'.

Don

[CoryB]

I just looked at the G7th capo and I’m confused. 

How does compensating the capo keep the tuning from changing? The strings are still all going across a straight fret. Does it change the tension on the strings prior to them crossing the fret?

[donlyn]

The G7th with the compensated pad does not lie straight across the fretboard, but has sawtooth cuts in the pad so that the same amount of pressure is put on each string according to it's needs. It is designed so that there is little or no need to re-tune due to the capo applying the same pressure to all strings. A capo with a flatter pad will apply a general amount of pressure overall, which means that some strings are depressed more than others; hence the need for a re-tune.

Consider the difference between an octave 'a' string and an 'A' string. They are strung next to each other, but the straight capo's pressure will require all strings to be pressed to the fret to prevent buzzing. But the capo will contact the 'A' string before the 'a' string in the same course. This means more pressure is required to fret the 'a' string too. But this depresses the 'A' string further and pulls it sharper relative to it's course mate. Hence requiring a re-tune, which will extend to all the strings. While the compensated pad will pull all strings a bit sharp (all capoes and your fingers will normally do this), they are all sharp to the same slight degree, so it is hardly noticeable.

It sounds a little weird, but it works. I am not employed or represent G7th, but I also like their Performance 3 six-string capo with the Adaptive Radius Technology, which curves the pad evenly across/around the radius of the fretboard.

Don
.

[Edward]

The "trick" with any capo is using only enough clamping force such the the string is fretted and the note will ring well, but not so much that the string is pulled sharp.  This is true with using any capo on a 6 string, but presents an even greater challenge with a 12 string.  The thickness of a wound string compared to the thinness of its octave presents a difficulty for the capo: clamp just barely enough to keep the E string to sound good, but that E octave is still buzzy.  So clamp more to get the E octave to ring true and now the E wound is getting pulled sharp with all that force.  Moreover, every different guitar may have a slightly different fretboard radius which adds yet another wrinkle to the capo's ability to perform its task.

The solution is in the capo's ability to conform to the thicker string and not "push" so hard as to make it go sharp while still providing enough "push" to the thinner string so that it will ring clearly.  FWIW, I've used the 1st-gen G7th capo for 12strings successfully these many years ...it simply works well for me.  But G7th supposedly improved their compound and design of their capos, and thus their current 12string capo is allegedly better.  I also have a Gen2 for the 6 strings.  And now they have the "ART" design.  Mine all work as needed so I have no need to try the current one.  But for those who use the G7th, or other capos, they can chime in on their experience. 

edit: donlyn beat me to it ...sorry for the redundancy

Edward

[donlyn]

Hey Edward,

No problem. Actually I think we each said the same thing differently, which hopefully means the message is easier to understand one way or another.

Also, here are a couple of reviews of this 12 string capo, the first by Susie, and the second by me:


Susie review:

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=9090.0


Don review:

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=9206.0


Don

[ericjungemann]

Having owned a number of Taylor 12s including 562e, 855e, K65ce, 150e etc. . .
My opinion is that the shorter scale on the 562 (v class or older) makes detuning less necessary.
it already has very nice comfortble easy to play action.
Tuning down a full step wouldn't be a problem.  Lower than that gets sloppy for me.  And I don't really want to change string gauges.
My 'normal' scale length Taylors can go down 2 full steps and still play well.
I love the G7 12 string capo.
All my experience has been with Elixir 12 string lights . . . I've never felt the need to change (pun intended).

Eric

[Earl]

.....My opinion is that the shorter scale on the 562 (v class or older) makes detuning less necessary.
it already has very nice comfortable easy to play action.....

I'm working with a custom short-scale guitar right now.  It is 24.6" scale and that makes the total string tension about 7% less according to string tension calculators.  The Taylor 24-7/8" scale would be a roughly 5% decrease, so a light gauge (47-10) twelve-string set drops from ~250 pounds to ~ 238 pounds.  Playing feel to my hand verifies those numbers.  Tuned E-e the short scale feels very much like the regular scale length tuned down a half-step to Eb.

[beachbum205]

I have owned 4 Taylor 12 strings, even one with a cedar top.....a GS, a GC, a DN, and a Jumbo. Taylor knows what they are doing with their designs and what they can take. I never tuned down any of mine....no problems whatsoever. I even asked about the one with the cedar top in the "Ask Bob" column of W&S. He responded saying, don't worry, just tune it normally and it will be fine (basically). If you want to detune, it's your choice, I'm just saying it's not necessary.

+1 to what Susie and others have said. I have owned three Taylor 12-strings over the years, and never tuned down, and never experienced any problems whatsoever. I think the only exception to this would be if for some reason you wanted to use heavy gauge strings- then and only then would you need to tune down.

On a side note, it was Pete Seeger who once said “When you play the 12-string guitar, you spend half your life tuning the instrument and the other half playing it out of tune”.