Never too old to learn something new?

[theonemanband]

After over 25 years of playing exclusively 12 string guitar and having played various makes, models & string combinations in that time, my favourite is without doubt my new Taylor T5z-12c; however, recently I tried something "new"!
I have always been aware but never really too bothered about, where the octave G sits in the mix, sometimes adding to that wonderful 12 string sound but sometimes in many tunes and solos sounding completely out of place.
I recently came across John Butler, an Australian player who has recognised the same issue, so much so that he now plays a Maton, made for him, with only 11 strings (single G), so I thought I'd investigate.
After a bit of thought, I have now fitted a heavier (plain/.018) "octave" string but, have tuned it in unison with the concert pitch G.
The result is excellent, no great loss of THAT 12 string sound, but a much smoother transition across soloing & fingerpicking and it seems to suit the whole genre of songs I cover with a much more balanced sound.
Having now investigated further, I have found all sorts of strange and wonderful experiments and re-stringing arrangements on our beloved 12 strings; (which I won't be pursuing)! 
I absolutely understand that it's a case of "horses for courses" but, I just thought I would post this for any other 12 string players who may be looking for a way of slightly taming that octave G!!

[mgap]

That sounds interesting.  Did you have to do any resizing of the nut?  I might have to give it a try.  Which guitar did you do it on, acoustic or electric?

[theonemanband]

That sounds interesting.  Did you have to do any resizing of the nut?  I might have to give it a try.  Which guitar did you do it on, acoustic or electric?

NO mods needed to nut or bridge saddle height, just simply replaced the octave G (6th. - .010) with a plain .018 and tuned it in unison with the concert pitch 5th (wound .022.) The guitar is a T5z-12c.
Did a gig last night, sounds (in my opinion) better, so have done the same to my Dano 12 string; again, no mods necessary.

[mgap]

That sounds interesting.  Did you have to do any resizing of the nut?  I might have to give it a try.  Which guitar did you do it on, acoustic or electric?

NO mods needed to nut or bridge saddle height, just simply replaced the octave G (6th. - .010) with a plain .018 and tuned it in unison with the concert pitch 5th (wound .022.) The guitar is a T5z-12c.
Did a gig last night, sounds (in my opinion) better, so have done the same to my Dano 12 string; again, no mods necessary.

Have you ever just left off the octive string altogether?  So that you have just a 11 string guitar.

[theonemanband]

That sounds interesting.  Did you have to do any resizing of the nut?  I might have to give it a try.  Which guitar did you do it on, acoustic or electric?

NO mods needed to nut or bridge saddle height, just simply replaced the octave G (6th. - .010) with a plain .018 and tuned it in unison with the concert pitch 5th (wound .022.) The guitar is a T5z-12c.
Did a gig last night, sounds (in my opinion) better, so have done the same to my Dano 12 string; again, no mods necessary.

Have you ever just left off the octive string altogether?  So that you have just a 11 string guitar.

No. This is the first time I've moved away from the "standard" twelve string arrangement and I thought the single string option might feel odd. As it is, the plain & wound strings in unison sound AND feel right to me; I did another gig with the T5 last night and I'm convinced it sounds better across all genres, so I'm sticking with it!!

[Gordo in OZ]

Interesting that you found a Maton player. Maton make great guitars. Their guitars from the 70's are really very good and if you find one for sale you should just buy it. The usual description here was "the Australian Martin". The reality was that they were way better than any Martins. Somewhere in the 80's they lost their way a bit and the quality went down. They still make very good guitars but the really good ones only come from their custom shop. A custom shop Maton is probably about as good as a production line Larrivee 05 that has been set up to your specs. Left handed people are at an advantage as LH guitars are less likely to be standard off the production line models.

[theonemanband]

Interesting that you found a Maton player. Maton make great guitars. Their guitars from the 70's are really very good and if you find one for sale you should just buy it. The usual description here was "the Australian Martin". The reality was that they were way better than any Martins. Somewhere in the 80's they lost their way a bit and the quality went down. They still make very good guitars but the really good ones only come from their custom shop. A custom shop Maton is probably about as good as a production line Larrivee 05 that has been set up to your specs. Left handed people are at an advantage as LH guitars are less likely to be standard off the production line models.

Hi Gordo,
As it happens, we have a local retailer here in the UK, who carry a few Matons in stock. As you say, excellent instruments and a buddy of mine who is a very fine player indeed, was very impressed with one in particular that he tried, and I'm pretty sure he'll end up buying it!

As for me, I am cured of my GAS disorder..........................(at least until next week)!!

[Minnesotaman]

I knew a guy who played his Taylor JUMBO this way, called it "Leo Kottke style." I've sat within spittin' distance of Leo and never seen him play this way though.

[donlyn]

Actually, this practise is something quite old, maybe close to a century.

Among some other exotic tunings he employed, Lead Belly often strung/tuned his 12 string with unison wound G strings. He was also known to have strung/tuned his bass octave E string 2 octaves higher, that is, with the same gauge and pitch as the treble E strings. As he favored heavier gauge strings, he also commonly tuned down a couple/few steps overall.

edit> I do like the idea of the unwound unison G string, however.

[theonemanband]

Actually, this practise is something quite old, maybe close to a century.

Among some other exotic tunings he employed, Lead Belly often strung/tuned his 12 string with unison wound G strings. He was also known to have strung/tuned his bass octave E string 2 octaves higher, that is, with the same gauge and pitch as the treble E strings. As he favored heavier gauge strings, he also commonly tuned down a couple/few steps overall.

edit> I do like the idea of the unwound unison G string, however.

Thanks Donlyn for your input into the thread........I really appreciate it and have learned something new again, (endorsing the thread title)!!

Having done a few gigs with this new (preferred) tuning arrangement; I WAS having issues keeping the plain unison third (0.18) perfectly in tune with the wound third (0.22). I have now replaced that with another (wound .022) and after a very slight nut adjustment...........BINGO!!.......perfect sound, tuning and intonation!

I might never be as good as Leadbelly, but at least I've got a similar tuning!! 

Cheers.........Brian

[donlyn]

You're welcome; glad to help.

Don

* * *

theonemanband wrote,
"Having now investigated further, I have found all sorts of strange and wonderful experiments and re-stringing arrangements on our beloved 12 strings; ..."

I knew a folksinger way back when named Michael Cooney. Having just played a 12-string in open tuning, he was proceeding to retune it while keeping up some verbal patter on stage. His remark of "it's like trying to tune a centipede" stuck with me. Makes perfect sense in an odd sort of way.

Something that I had suspected for years was confirmed after I got an early digital tuner. I habitually tune from bass to treble. When I was finished tuning my 12, I had to go back and re-tune because the pitch of the bass strings was slightly off from that of the treble strings, due to the evolving changes in string tension.


 

[donlyn]

Interesting codicil:

My February issue of Acoustic Guitar recently arrived. On page 32 there's a short article about Roger McGuinn. Seems that he had Martin build a 7 string guitar partly as a replacement for a destroyed 12 String. It is based on an existing 6 string dreadnought and the key feature is adding an octave G string. Seems McGuinn really likes to solo using the G String on his 12, and decided that was the feature he wanted most, the wound G string and its octave, for his new guitar.

McGuinn later found out this was pioneered by Spider John Koerner in the 60's. Hello Club 47.

A delicious bite of food for further thought:
Playing a 12 string is your Phil Spector method of accompaniment; instant wall of sound.