ES2, LR Baggs Venue

[reddogmorgan]

Good Morning!

Before I explain, let's get the caveats out of the way (YMMV, depends on your space, redundant topic, we hate ES2, etc).  I know, but it's a forum so let's chat

I have a 2016 Taylor 714CE with the ES2 system and play it primarily at my church through the PA.  Our music team is an electric bass, keyboard, mandolin, drums, and second acoustic guitar. We play primarily from key of G to key of C so I do use a capo often (a lot in E with a cut capo, too).

I don't know enough to know if my ES2 is the bass-heavy version of ES2 or not, though I suspect I think it is based on my ear.  I run my guitar through a LR Baggs Venue before it goes to the Behringer x32 board.  Primary sound response back to me comes through a Behringer Eurolive floor wedge.  I have little experience mixing things nicely so EQ'ing is a challenge to know if what I'm doing is "right".  I'm looking for some specific guidance.

I leave the Bass and Treble knobs on my guitar at noon (in their detentes) and when I first got the Baggs, I spent time fiddling with the knobs to get something decent (though I think I EQ to extremes, heavy bass and heavy treble).  My Baggs settings were (o'clock):
Bass (90Hz): 9:30
Low Mid: 8:30 with its frequency knob at 120 Hz
Hi Mid: 9:00  with its frequency knob at 750 Hz
Presence (3kHz): 1:00
Treble (10kHz):  2:00

Someone remarked hearing a lot of pick slap on the strings and it was also feeling quite trebly.  So based on a few remarks here from Edward, I rebalanced alternating with the mute switch to compare to un-Picked Up sound to:
Bass: 8:30
Low Mid: 8:00 with its frequency knob at 110-120 Hz
hi Mid: 12:30 with its frequency knob at 1100 Hz
Presence: 12:00
Treble:  11:30

Without the other instruments, it actually sounded somewhat close to my natural sound.  But then when we all played, I felt like it wasn't quite as sharp and it might've been just a touch mid-muddy.  I was also getting some chimey-ness or overtones that I don't know how to clean up. My problem is that I don't have enough experience with EQ'ing other than lots of fiddling and no one else on our team does either.  Any thoughts?

[Edward]

Without the other instruments, it actually sounded somewhat close to my natural sound.  But then when we all played, I felt like it wasn't quite as sharp and it might've been just a touch mid-muddy.  I was also getting some chimey-ness or overtones that I don't know how to clean up. My problem is that I don't have enough experience with EQ'ing other than lots of fiddling and no one else on our team does either.  Any thoughts?

Sounds like you're on the right road ...well done!  A few thoughts, since ya asked

1. This is a biggie: make NO sonic assessments based on your wedge!  All tonal changes you make are to benefit your house tone; this is what truly counts, right?  You wedge really is just so you can hear yourself; sound quality is "welcomed" but not truly a must (I know, that sounds like heresy).  If you want better tone for you, you can get a better floor monitor, or perhaps first try EQing for solely your monitor send (which you can do with your X32).  But make all sonic judgments and adjustments listening to the house PA. 

2. Try your best/favorite Venue settings with the guitar's bass control dialed back, try around 10:00.  On my ES2 this helps attenuate that boomy bass, reducing some of the "mush" at the bottom end.

3. The pick noise on strings is both playing style as well as pick dependent.  To the former, think about the angle of your pick to the strings, and of course your attack.  This is no indictment of how you play, mind you!  It's just that some things we do are tonally subtle or even indiscernible when playing unplugged, but introduce amplification and that which was insignificant suddenly raises its ugly head.  It is no wonder why creating a genuinely good-sounding recording of an acoustic guit requires skills acquired over years.  You can try a thicker pick, but that may require adjustment on your part, so that may or may not be a change you're willing to make, but it's worth a try.  Also, pick noise is akin to siblant "sss" and "tss" sounds when one sings: that's upper frequencies.  So judicious attenuating of 10k will mitigate some of that.  But all EQ is a compromise: attenuating 10k to reduce pick noise may also lose some of the "sparkle" and note definition.  Finding the spot that works best for you is your goal.

4.  Anyone who's played live for any length of time knows there is the tone they like, and then there is the tone that works with the band.  Don't be surprised that the tone you like when playing alone gets buried as soon as the band kicks in.  You'll hear the phrase "lost in the mix" commonly attributed to this bugaboo.  It's normal.  Each instrument occupies a sonic footprint.  So when alone, you're diggin your sound.  Then the bass, drums, keys come in and you've now got lots of "feet" overlapping and overstepping each other on the dance floor, so to speak: yeah, it can get messy!  Which is also why some live mixes sound like a wall of indiscernible mush, so a guy turns one channel up to "hear him better" and things just get progressively worse!  Mixing for an acoustic guitar within a full ensemble (the FOH guy's responsibility if ya have one) is a whole nuther ball game as your guitar's tone now must be "narrowed down" so as not to conflict with other instruments, as well as shaped to punch through the ensemble.  It's a skill that gets you heard without turning up the volume.  Same with the bass, keys, etc.; same with multiple singers.  Once you learn this (or the FOH guy nails it), you sound like a proper acoustic guitar.  Then take the band away and you'll likely think your guitar's tone is thin and harsh.  Welcome to playing and mixing live.
So while there is lots of nuance here, may I share one basic truth: cutting bass frequencies adds clarity.  I'd be willing to bet that touch of "mid-muddiness" you're hearing is that 500-800Hz mid-bass that is getting layered with each instrument.  Even the singers.  Visualize a Venn diagram: keep adding circles and those intersections are gonna get awfully crowded! Fwiw, my standard go-to move is drop some 600 on vocalists, a little bit on some mics, a lot on others, but rarely do I leave the 600 flat when there's a full band.  But one singer and piano is a world of difference since these two instruments each occupy a larger space than each individual in a full band whose voices get summed.

5.  The "chimey-ness and overtones" you mention has me a bit confused as to what, exactly, you're referring to.  Too "glassy" at the very top end, maybe?  If so, that is not unlike the pick noise you're getting.  Again, that's higher frequencies so that's 10k (and up, really) so maybe this will sound better as you think through #3 above.

Hope that gives you a few things to think about and try.  Chime back and report yer findings!

Edward

[reddogmorgan]

Edward - thanks for the comments.  I tried out #2 and tweaked my treble down for #5 and I think that helped.  And for #3, changed from the red Tortex picks (0.5mm) to the orange ones (0.6 mm).

 What's tricky with the Venue DI is that the hi-mid sweep allows one ot pick one frequency from 500-2.8kHz and then either cut or boost.  So, with boosting at about 1.1kHz, I can't also cut at 600 hz (though I could do that at the board).

[Edward]

Glad it's helping you refine the tone!  The Venue has the two sweep bands which is nice (other units have one band), but yes, 500hz is as high as you can go on the low band.  Give that a try, too: cutting the 500Hz at the Venue and cut some of the bass at the console if cutting at the "bass" knob at the Venue isn't getting you where you want to be ...most boards have the "bass" control centered at around 100Hz so that may be another option for you.  Again, you gotta see what ya hear. 

And you've already said it: your x32 has lots of EQ capability.  When hunting for that muddy zone in search of the frequencies to cut, try different frequencies between the 500-800Hz from your board.  Change nothing else and focus on this one variable, trying diff freq at maybe around a 6db cut, and see what you hear.  It's going to take some trial and error, and you're going to want to rely on the house speakers (remember, not your floor wedge...have that guy off while you're doing this) at genuine house volumes, so you're likely going to have to coordinate with your sound guy at your church for some play time. 

But remember, too, that getting a good acoustic sound through the house has everything to do with context within the band.  So I'd not obsess too much here (not saying that you are, just throwing that out there ).  While the ES2 ain't my favorite pickup system, it really isn't impossible to get a decent-sounding acoustic tone out of it.  And as I had mentioned, the more instruments present, the smaller your sonic footprint, which makes for easier EQing for your guit.

Edward

[DenverSteve]

A couple of things although Edward handled most wonderfully. Remember that the floor treatment (wood, carpet, concrete) will greatly effect what you hear from your monitor.  Consequently, what you hear won't be what the house hears.  And, as Edward said, that's not what's important. The house sound is.  Next, just to restate, your picking technique will be more responsible for "pick slap" than the ES2 or any other pickup/electronics.

Since you have a sound-person, let them do their job.  Set your equipment flat and have them adjust the EQ, gain and other tone-affecting settings to get the proper sound for the "house".  What sounds best to you isn't necessarily what cuts through or mixes with the other instruments best.

[Gabrielobrien]

I’m an audio engineer and an authorized repair tech. There have been some refinements made to the ES2 since then. You can actually contact customer service and ask about swapping the system and they’ll have a local authorized repair tech do it. Also, keep in mind how you gain stage matters. The Venue is great, but it is adding a gain stage. How they use compression and EQ at the board are going to be very important. Most engineers will hi pass filter acoustic guitars for live sound so they don’t take up too much low end room where the bass player and kick drum live. It’s also really important to remember the ES2 is a more sensitive pickup than traditional under saddle pickups, so make small changes to EQ and compression.

Here’s a getting started guide I made on using the ES2: https://vimeo.com/502271767/d1bb13b395

[reddogmorgan]

Gabriel

That vid was great.  Thanks!  Would Taylor provide the updated ES2 for free?  Would that apply if I'm the second owner?