Coronavirus/Covid-19

[timfitz63]

Aside from the health implications, it's affecting my wallet. I'm a professional photographer and have already had five shoots cancelled...

Not to downplay your plight; but think of how much places like bars and restaurants are losing on St. Patrick's Day...

Oh, absolutely!

Here in Florida, Governor DeSantis closed all bars and nightclubs for 30 days. I have a lot of friends who are bartenders, servers, musicians, etc, and they're all in panic mode right now...

30 days...?!  That's definitely an overreaction...!  I just read that San Francisco is now under a "shelter in place" order -- which sounds like a PC term for martial law to me...

People losing income, schools closed, sports leagues suspended, grocery store shelves empty...  Geez, if this is the kind of reaction the country has over a glorified flu virus, imagine what it would be like if something truly deadly got loose...?!

Whaaat!  What do you mean if something truly deadly got loose, you living under a rock or just...well, I'm not gonna say it here.  People like you are part of the problem.  This is much more than just the flu and no its not martial law to try and protect people from others who don't think its a big deal....such as yourself apparently.

Welcome to America.  Where everyone is entitled their own opinion -- even an ungracious one like yours...  Really?  Part of the problem?  You make it sound like I created this virus...  Or was "patient zero..."  Or worse yet, am knowingly walking around while infected or as a carrier... Get a grip on yourself...

In case you didn't read my initial post on this topic -- and judging from your response you didn't -- I have not endorsed carelessness about this virus at any point.  But neither have I decided to live my life sheltered under a rock, as you seem to believe...  Or suffering a cranial-rectal inversion, as you seem to hint...  Quite the opposite, in fact...

So in case you haven't run the numbers -- and judging from your response, you haven't -- the latest reports are of 200,000 cases worldwide.  In round numbers, there are 4 billion people still kicking on this planet.  That means that 0.005% of the population is infected -- that's one FIVE HUNDREDTH of a percent.  The number of deaths is smaller yet.

And in case you haven't read up on the symptoms -- which judging from your response, you haven't -- for the vast majority of people infected, the expected symptoms are:  low-grade fever, runny nose, sore throat, dry cough, and shortness of breath.  Hmm, death does not seem to be listed among those symptoms -- except for at-risk groups who have compromised immune systems, and who are at risk of death from just about any infection.  So, yeah:  coronavirus sounds like a glorified flu bug to me...  And by the way:  the flu infected -- and killed -- more people last year than coronavirus has...

People who have gone overboard with their reactions to this 'pandemic' (apparently you needn't look any farther than a mirror for one of them) have caused more pain and suffering to their fellow man than this bug ever will.  How many people have been put out of work for an indefinite period of time...?  When will the stock market/economy recover from this...?  When's the last time you saw fully-stocked shelves in the supermarket...?  I could go on, but what's the point...?

So if you want to live your life huddled inside your house in fear of what might be, then be my guest; in the end, only one of us will be right...  And if it's you, then I guess I won't have to listen to "I told you so...!"

My wife is a retired registered nurse and is appalled with this kind of attitude when thousands worldwide are dying...

Then she, of all people, knows that people do die from diseases.  Not a pleasant thought, I grant you; just reality.  And if anything, she should understand my point:  thousands of deaths worldwide.  Not hundreds of thousands, not millions --  thousands...  You guys make it sound like I want to see people suffer and die when I'm just trying to be a voice of reason in this matter...!  But no one likes the guy who says out loud what most of us are already thinking...

As such, I won't be shouted down on this or any topic when the numbers just don't support it.  The present reaction to coronavirus is way out of proportion to the known risks to human life.  I will repeat that once again because it's apparently not sinking in to some:  the documented symptoms are, for the vast majority of those infected, non-life-threatening.  Just because it's never been encountered before doesn't justify this level of reaction.  If we all want to agree to disagree, that's fine.  But I'm not going to change my opinion on this unless and until the numbers show otherwise.  And so far, the flu has proven itself to be far more deadly to mankind than coronavirus.  But I don't recall the country shutting down last year when the seasonal flu was at it's peak...  Why not...?

[mgap]

Tim makes some very good points.  Here in the United States we have a influenza season death rate of between 12,000 - 60,000.
That is just here in the USA, I am not talking world wide.  2017-2018 flu season there was 61,000 deaths https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden-averted/2017-2018.htm
this flu season 2019-2020 starting from October 1, 2019 to March 7, 2020 just 22,000 - 55,000 deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm
This does not seem so abnormal to me.  Although any death is a sorrowful tragedy.  The numbers don't seem to warrant the crazyness that this country and world is putting themselves through.
Besides that, my hands are drying out from washing them so much.

[Markob]

Why Covid-19 is worse than the flu?
It’s more contagious, more deadly (particularly for older people), and it has a greater potential to overwhelm our health care system.

By Brian Resnick and Christina Animashaun  Mar 18, 2020, 12:24pm EDT


A question we keep hearing about the Covid-19 pandemic: Isn’t this disease a lot like the flu?

A quick unambiguous answer: No, this is not like the seasonal flu. It is worse.

Yes, some of the symptoms of Covid-19 resemble flu — especially fever and coughs. But this virus is worse for the destruction it may cause, not only in human lives, but to our society.


This is not to downplay the flu; that disease is still an annual blight we could be even more proactive about fighting (annual flu shots are important!). And it’s still true that tens of thousands of people die from the flu each year in the US.

But also, keep in mind: That’s in a given year. Covid-19 hasn’t been around a year — or even half a year. Before January, this virus was not known to science, at all. It’s just getting started. And while there is still a lot of uncertainty over this virus, and how it will play out, from what we know so far, this is a threat to take extremely seriously.

All the reasons Covid-19 is worse than the flu
While the exact death rate is not yet clear, the evidence so far does show the disease kills a larger proportion of people than the flu (and it’s particularly lethal for people older than 80).

It also has a higher potential to overwhelm our health care system and hurt people with other illnesses.

Currently, there is no vaccine to combat it, nor any approved therapeutics to slow the course of its toll on the human body. (Doctors can treat cytokine storm syndrome, an immune response that may in some cases be dealing the fatal blow to those dying of Covid-19.)

Sober-minded epidemiologists say that 20 to 60 percent of the world’s adult population could end up catching this virus.


Biologically, it behaves differently than the flu. It takes one to 14 days for people with Covid-19 infection to develop symptoms (five days is the median). For the flu, it’s around two days. That potentially gives people more time to spread the illness asymptomatically before they know they are sick.

Around the country, health care providers are worried about their facilities being overrun with an influx of patients, and having to ration lifesaving medical supplies. Some flu seasons are worse than others — but facilities are anticipating flu cases, and prepare for them. Many hospitals, as Vox’s Dylan Scott has reported, and struggling in their preparations for Covid-19.

Four or so months ago, this virus is believed to have made the leap from animals to humans for the very first time. No human immune system had seen it before November, so no human had any natural immunity to it. That means it’s more contagious than the flu — about twice as contagious, perhaps more; the numbers are still being worked out.

The threat of it causing massive outbreaks that overwhelm health systems around the world is serious. It’s bad enough to roil our stock markets, put people out of work, and potentially cause a recession. It could potentially kill millions, both here and world wide.

It’s possible that Covid-19 will become endemic — meaning it will be a disease that regularly attacks humans and will not go away until there’s a treatment or a vaccine.

Again: Yes, flu variants kill tens of thousands of people a year in the US. But imagine if there was another kind of flu, “except potentially with a higher case fatality rate,” Angela Rasmussen, a Columbia University virologist, told me recently. “Which is definitely a problem because the seasonal flu kills 30,000 to 60,000 Americans every year. And even if it’s the same case fatality rate of seasonal flu, that still presents a substantial public health burden.”

We do not want this to happen. Better safe than sorry people.

[timfitz63]

Good information in the grand scheme; knowledge is always good to combat fear.  But there's still a lot of conjecture hiding within that article...

Once again, I grant that prudence and caution are always warranted any time we deal with something previously unknown to us.  The truth is:  nobody currently knows what the ramifications are, and only time will tell...  But the genie is already out of the bottle; sticking the cork back in now won't change a lot...  The virus is loose and either we develop a vaccine for it (a la small pox and polio); or -- one way or another -- nature will do the immunization for us...  Some may view that as overly fatalistic; I just accept it as realism, look at the facts and numbers for guidance as to the proper course of action, and try to put my trust in the Lord...

My original, somewhat rhetorical question still remains, though:  As a society, are we doing more harm to ourselves by being overly cautious...?  There's been a tendency over the past few decades to believe we can create a perfectly safe and carefree society through the judicious applications of science and politics.  So far, I haven't partaken in that Kool-Aid...  My idea of a proper course of action at this time is to limit my contact with people of unknown health status, expect that others will do the same, isolate myself if I begin to feel sick -- and otherwise go about my normal routine.

What's more, what's the end-game on this "shelter-in-place" plan...?  How does anyone know when is the proper time to sound the "all clear" with an unknown contagion...?  If coronavirus truly is generally worse than the flu, sounding it too soon would be just as disastrous as keeping the world on "hold" for too long:  people will needlessly die either way...  In the latter case, people will continue to lose income; economies will collapse; desperation will set in for basic food needs and supplies...  I mean, the supermarket shelves are already bare; whether or not this goes down as another Bubonic plague, can you imagine the response if the worldwide economy just crashes suddenly...?!  Future historians might note it as the second dawning of the Dark Ages...  How bleak a picture can we paint with the current response trend of waiting until we're told to wait some more...?  Even the article you cite acknowledges that this side of the coin needs to be considered.  Now, is a scenario of worldwide economic chaos all conjecture and overreaction to the other end of the scale...?  Probably.  But you see:  we can all get caught up in the worst possible outcomes and forget that we should all just be doing our best...  As with every situation, the truth -- and the best course of action -- often lies somewhere in the middle...

[Shutterbug]

Whaaat!  What do you mean if something truly deadly got loose, you living under a rock or just...well, I'm not gonna say it here.  People like you are part of the problem.  This is much more than just the flu and no its not martial law to try and protect people from others who don't think its a big deal....such as yourself apparently.

The average age of those who've died in this country as a result of the coronavirus is somewhere around 80, and all have had some preexisting medical condition making it more likely the virus would prove fatal.

The reality is that the vast majority of people who get it will think they have the flu, will self medicate and recover.

As for martial law, I suggest you read up on what it is, because using the military to protect anyone from anyone else in this country is, in fact, martial law...

[Shutterbug]

Welcome to America.  Where everyone is entitled their own opinion -- even an ungracious one like yours...  Really?  Part of the problem?  You make it sound like I created this virus...  Or was "patient zero..."  Or worse yet, am knowingly walking around while infected or as a carrier... Get a grip on yourself...

In case you didn't read my initial post on this topic -- and judging from your response you didn't -- I have not endorsed carelessness about this virus at any point.  But neither have I decided to live my life sheltered under a rock, as you seem to believe...  Or suffering a cranial-rectal inversion, as you seem to hint...  Quite the opposite, in fact...

So in case you haven't run the numbers -- and judging from your response, you haven't -- the latest reports are of 200,000 cases worldwide.  In round numbers, there are 4 billion people still kicking on this planet.  That means that 0.005% of the population is infected -- that's one FIVE HUNDREDTH of a percent.  The number of deaths is smaller yet.

And in case you haven't read up on the symptoms -- which judging from your response, you haven't -- for the vast majority of people infected, the expected symptoms are:  low-grade fever, runny nose, sore throat, dry cough, and shortness of breath.  Hmm, death does not seem to be listed among those symptoms -- except for at-risk groups who have compromised immune systems, and who are at risk of death from just about any infection.  So, yeah:  coronavirus sounds like a glorified flu bug to me...  And by the way:  the flu infected -- and killed -- more people last year than coronavirus has...

People who have gone overboard with their reactions to this 'pandemic' (apparently you needn't look any farther than a mirror for one of them) have caused more pain and suffering to their fellow man than this bug ever will.  How many people have been put out of work for an indefinite period of time...?  When will the stock market/economy recover from this...?  When's the last time you saw fully-stocked shelves in the supermarket...?  I could go on, but what's the point...?

So if you want to live your life huddled inside your house in fear of what might be, then be my guest; in the end, only one of us will be right...  And if it's you, then I guess I won't have to listen to "I told you so...!"

My wife is a retired registered nurse and is appalled with this kind of attitude when thousands worldwide are dying...

Then she, of all people, knows that people do die from diseases.  Not a pleasant thought, I grant you; just reality.  And if anything, she should understand my point:  thousands of deaths worldwide.  Not hundreds of thousands, not millions --  thousands...  You guys make it sound like I want to see people suffer and die when I'm just trying to be a voice of reason in this matter...!  But no one likes the guy who says out loud what most of us are already thinking...

As such, I won't be shouted down on this or any topic when the numbers just don't support it.  The present reaction to coronavirus is way out of proportion to the known risks to human life.  I will repeat that once again because it's apparently not sinking in to some:  the documented symptoms are, for the vast majority of those infected, non-life-threatening.  Just because it's never been encountered before doesn't justify this level of reaction.  If we all want to agree to disagree, that's fine.  But I'm not going to change my opinion on this unless and until the numbers show otherwise.  And so far, the flu has proven itself to be far more deadly to mankind than coronavirus.  But I don't recall the country shutting down last year when the seasonal flu was at it's peak...  Why not...?

This is absolute gold.

Well done...

[timfitz63]

... the latest reports are of 200,000 cases worldwide.  In round numbers, there are 4 billion people still kicking on this planet.  That means that 0.005% of the population is infected -- that's one FIVE HUNDREDTH of a percent.  The number of deaths is smaller yet...

For accuracy's sake, I must issue a correction/update to this.  In verifying the latest figures, the number of worldwide coronavirus cases is now approaching 300,000; the spike in the number is possibly being driven to some degree by the reports of widespread infections among cooped-up criminal prisoners in Iran.  Also, the actual population on the planet is closer to 8 billion.  So that means that 0.00375% of the population is infected, or roughly one four-hundredeth of one percent.  So unless you've recently spent some time crammed inside of an Iranian prison, I'd say your odds of catching the coronavirus here in the USA are relatively slim...

Moving on to the statistics concerning the resolution of the virus:  there have been just under 12,000 deaths worldwide from this virus, with almost 94,000 recoveries (remaining numbers are probably still in the infected stages, so recovery is TBD).  As has been pointed out, most of the deaths are almost certainly among folks who were already in a risk group, primarily the elderly.  That's a 90% recovery rate, folks...  Which is pretty good -- especially considering that humans had not previously developed a natural immunity to coronavirus...

What's more, the current number of deaths here in the U.S. that have resulted from about 20,000 reported cases nationwide is 276, or about 1% of those infected -- far better than the worldwide rate of 10% -- with all of the remaining active cases being currently reported as mild infections.  276 people in the entire country:  that's not even as many people who are dying on the roads going back and forth from the supermarkets to clean off the shelves...

So relax...  Unless you're in a risk-group, your chances are probably greater of dying from 'cabin fever' as we all wait it out...

[Shutterbug]

So unless you've recently spent some time crammed inside of an Iranian prison, I'd say your odds of catching the coronavirus here in the USA are relatively slim...

That's pretty funny...

[Markob]

So unless you've recently spent some time crammed inside of an Iranian prison, I'd say your odds of catching the coronavirus here in the USA are relatively slim...

That's pretty funny...

Right hilarious. Getting funnier by the day.

[TaylorGirl]

A sensitive topic to some, let's take a step back and relax. Maybe this thread has run its course. We will keep an eye on it.

[Markob]

My apologies TaylorGirl. I shouldn't have revisited this and commented.

[Shutterbug]

Right hilarious. Getting funnier by the day.

You know, a little levity is what'll help make this whole thing a little easier to endure.

Unless, of course, you actually have been crammed into an Iranian prison...

[TaylorGirl]

My apologies TaylorGirl. I shouldn't have revisited this and commented.

Not just you. Take care.

Right hilarious. Getting funnier by the day.

You know, a little levity is what'll help make this whole thing a little easier to endure.

Unless, of course, you actually have been crammed into an Iranian prison...

No, my sense of humor is just fine. Thank you.

Some concern has been expressed. Just saying that we are trying to keep the forum enjoyable for all. With the health, financial, social, etc  struggles that folks are enduring, this topic may be a bit more sensitive. Posts are welcome, but let's be a little more mindful here. Thanks.

[Shutterbug]

My apologies TaylorGirl. I shouldn't have revisited this and commented.

Not just you. Take care.

Right hilarious. Getting funnier by the day.

You know, a little levity is what'll help make this whole thing a little easier to endure.

Unless, of course, you actually have been crammed into an Iranian prison...

No, my sense of humor is just fine. Thank you.

Some concern has been expressed. Just saying that we are trying to keep the forum enjoyable for all. With the health, financial, social, etc  struggles that folks are enduring, this topic may be a bit more sensitive. Posts are welcome, but let's be a little more mindful here. Thanks.

Well, to that I would say that too much doom and gloom is good for no one, and I don't really think anyone is trying to make light of anything at anyone's expense.

I, for one, appreciate the levity and would rather see posts which make me chuckle as opposed to posts which make me want to put a gun in my mouth. This is a bad, bad situation and everyone knows it. No one is going to say anything about it which hasn't been said a thousand times before.

Here, try this:

John Travolta was rushed to an Ocala area hospital because of a suspected case of Covid-19.

Upon examination, Travolta was found to be free of the virus and, instead, was afflicted with Saturday Night Fever. Doctors were pleased to announce that Travolta will be stayin' alive...

[timfitz63]

My apologies TaylorGirl. I shouldn't have revisited this and commented.

Not just you. Take care.

Right hilarious. Getting funnier by the day.

You know, a little levity is what'll help make this whole thing a little easier to endure.

Unless, of course, you actually have been crammed into an Iranian prison...

No, my sense of humor is just fine. Thank you.

Some concern has been expressed. Just saying that we are trying to keep the forum enjoyable for all. With the health, financial, social, etc  struggles that folks are enduring, this topic may be a bit more sensitive. Posts are welcome, but let's be a little more mindful here. Thanks.

... Here, try this:

John Travolta was rushed to an Ocala area hospital because of a suspected case of Covid-19.

Upon examination, Travolta was found to be free of the virus and, instead, was afflicted with Saturday Night Fever. Doctors were pleased to announce that Travolta will be stayin' alive...

I vote funny...

I don't think any of us are trying to be flippant with the suffering of others.  But I also tend fall on the same side of the argument as "Shutterbug:"  if we can't laugh in a time of crisis -- even at the crisis itself -- then we've lost something as humans...

If it gives you any insight into the workings of such minds, I remember taking a science-fiction/fantasy literature course in college; on one test we were given an extra credit question:  if we were living in the world described in Ray Bradbury's novel Fahrenheit 451, what book would we choose to 'become' (memorize) and why?  My answer was Douglas Adams' book The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy -- because anyone living in the world Bradbury described would need a good laugh...  I think the teacher was a bit surprised by my answer; he was expecting people in the class to choose stories that were considered 'classics,' and therefore worthy of protection.  But he gave me the extra credit...!

While working in what is arguably a hazardous profession (flight testing), I've learned that humor -- even what some may call 'gallows humor' -- helps to keep people loose and relaxed -- two good things when life-and-death situation arise suddenly.  And I myself am speaking from first-hand experience with it, having been aboard test aircraft that, at varying times (1) departed from controlled flight about 14,000 feet AGL (above ground level) and recovered only 2,000 feet AGL; (2) was struck by lightning about six feet from where I was sitting; (3) nearly took a seagull that we struck in flight down the No. 1 engine intake; and (4) lost pressurization while climbing to cruising altitude, putting us one step from fatal hypoxia (read up on what happened to the pro golfer, Payne Stewart)...

I think you'll find the same kind of humorous inclinations among paramedics, firefighters, police officers, combat military, etc.  I'm not a psychologist, but it may be a natural defense mechanism against the occupational hazards found in dangerous professions...  Either way, don't take it at anything more than face-value.