Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: lutehole on June 26, 2012, 02:41:03 AM
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I am trying to decide between purchasing a used 354ce and used 454ce. The price difference is approx $xxx more and the latter has fretboard binding and it is white fibre (i think) as opposed to black plastic.
Do you all think the fretboard binding+ovangkol woods+white fibre binding (i'm unsure if it's plastic) merit the additional $xxx? I wonder whether an ebony fretboard should be bound and whether the white fibre binding is more durable.
Thanks
edited for no pricing discussion rule
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Perhaps you didn't understand the question lol.
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I am asking if people prefer ovangkol, and more specifically, white fibre binding and a bound fingerboard, for practical reasons, over sapele and an unbound ebony board.
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What practical reasons would there be for preferring a bound fretboard? I've heard that in terms of any refretting that might eventually need doing, an unbound fretboard may be more practical.
I've had a few guitars in sapele and I love it. The ones I've had have had a sparkle that was lacking a little in a few of the mahogany guitars I've had (but that may just be a coincidence). I've owned one ovangkol guitar - a Lakewood dread - and that was also a great-sounding guitar. I'd be inclined to agree with Black Beauty on this one - the "upgrade" could well be more indicative of deft marketing than with any meaningful upgrade.
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Not sure about Taylor's cost differences between sapele and ovangkol. They're both great woods; it probably will depend on what you like to hear in a guitar. While I truly like sapele, I usually prefer mahogany to it. I think that ovangkol blends some of the better aspects of both mahogany and rosewood, making more of an all-purpose tonewood. As far as binding, I believe that they're both plastic (which is considered the most durable material to use for this purpose). If I had to chose, I'd normally go for a darker vs light binding, but not always. A bound fingerboard can add some elegance to a guitar's overall appearance. In the end, you'll need to pick the instrument that speaks to you best. For me, it would be a 400 series vs a 300 series, but you can't go wrong with either... hope this helps.
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I have both a 314ce and a 414ce. The reason I have both is because they offer their own unique tonal qualities. The ovangkol is a little warmer while sapele is slightly brighter. For me the looks are secondary to the tone.
If you have the chance for someone to play both while you stand in front and listen, one might sound more pleasing to you than the other. Ovangkol tends to enhance the midrange and offers a little more bass while sapele is pretty much even from bass to treble.
If looks are more important to you than tone, then choose the one that is more attractive to you. Personally I prefer a lighter colored binding (like clothing, the lighter color binding appears to make the guitar look a little bigger to me while the darker binding is more slimming).
Go with the one that speaks to you...one of them will. :)
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Apparently the fretboard on the 354 is bound also.
Strumming (edit: and now Cindy) seemed to nail it on most/all points. (I typically do not like white binding either). I seriously doubt if the durability of the binding in either case would be an issue. There is no practical reason I see to favor one over the other.
This one would have to be a pick-em based on the tone YOU hear between the ovangkol and sapele, and the astetics YOU prefer if they both sound good.
IF I had to pick one I would initially lean towards the ovangkol for the same reasons as rosewood - wider tonal range. If I already had a rosewood then I would hope to like the sapele as offering something different.
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The 354ce fret board is bound w/ black binding.
Gary K
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You make a reasonable point, but you may not be able to go by the prices listed on the BTO order sheet to calculate the value of wood upgrades on non-BTO models. Granted, Sapele and Ovangkol are the same price on BTOs, but so are Indian Rosewood and Mahogany. I believe the fact that the base price for any BTO sort of over-rides these relatively minor materials considerations, whereas on a standard 300 or 400 model, the price differential between Sapele and Ovangkol is more of an issue. Some of it is marketing for sure, but Ovankgol generally is considered an upgrade over Sapele in the same way that EIR is considered an upgrade over Mahogany and is priced accordingly.
I understood it perfectly. Like I said, it's marketing. Because 400 is a higher number than 300, Taylor decided to charge more for the 400. Why don't you take a look at the price list for woods and binding material for yourself:
http://home.comcast.net/~dglair/pwpimages/Taylor-2012-BTO-Acoustic-Worksheet-valid-thru-3-31.pdf
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All Taylor 300 series and up have bound fret boards.
I am asking if people prefer ovangkol, and more specifically, white fibre binding and a bound fingerboard, for practical reasons, over sapele and an unbound ebony board.
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All Taylor 300 series and up have bound fret boards.
I am asking if people prefer ovangkol, and more specifically, white fibre binding and a bound fingerboard, for practical reasons, over sapele and an unbound ebony board.
Are you sure the 354ce has fretboard binding? It is a 2011 model.
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depending on the year model 354/454ce, the 04-06s did not have fretboard binding -
the 300s were made with african 'mahogany' (khaya) then, rather than sapele,
which gave the guitar more of a 'tropical' mahogany-type tone (not as much 'pop')
the 98-03 & 07-12 300 series are made of sapele & these models have bound fretboards -
the 100/200 series (except the DDX) have unbound fretboards & the end of the 'tangs' are visible
the tone should be the determining factor, imho & if a cutaway, or electronics
is not a necessity, a used GA3/4(e)-12 model can likely be found with a little looking -
unless one was purchasing a guitar to 'flip it', i cannot understand why a determination
would be made purely on $ point ('i don't particularly care for the tone, but i got a great deal')
fretboard binding material have changed over the years (i believe from plastic to fiber back to plastic)
but it is what it is & unless the 300/400 series guitar in question is 04-06, the neck will have binding -
the 03 414ceL3 had an unbound neck also, but it was a 6 string cedar/mahogany gloss body
I am asking if people prefer ovangkol, and more specifically, white fibre binding and a bound fingerboard, for practical reasons, over sapele and an unbound ebony board.
for practical reasons, no -
i don't prefer one over the other
i'd be the wrong one to ask, as both models with these appointments reside
here (98 414 & 05 314) i like 'em both, each for their own (tonal) reasons
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You make a reasonable point, but you may not be able to go by the prices listed on the BTO order sheet to calculate the value of wood upgrades on non-BTO models. Granted, Sapele and Ovangkol are the same price on BTOs, but so are Indian Rosewood and Mahogany. I believe the fact that the base price for any BTO sort of over-rides these relatively minor materials considerations, whereas on a standard 300 or 400 model, the price differential between Sapele and Ovangkol is more of an issue. Some of it is marketing for sure, but Ovankgol generally is considered an upgrade over Sapele in the same way that EIR is considered an upgrade over Mahogany and is priced accordingly.
The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
The original question, before the OP edited it, was whether white 'fibre' was more expensive than black plastic, hence the surcharge on the 400 series. The BTO sheet link I posted shows that the white 'fibre' is in fact white plastic, the same material as the black plastic on the 300 series. If they put white plastic on the 300 series and black plastic on the 400 series, the price is not going to change. If they made Sapele the 400 series and Ovangkol the 300 series the Sapele would be more expensive than Ovangkol. Marketing.
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The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
The original question, before the OP edited it, was whether white 'fibre' was more expensive than black plastic, hence the surcharge on the 400 series. The BTO sheet link I posted shows that the white 'fibre' is in fact white plastic, the same material as the black plastic on the 300 series. If they put white plastic on the 300 series and black plastic on the 400 series, the price is not going to change. If they made Sapele the 400 series and Ovangkol the 300 series the Sapele would be more expensive than Ovangkol. Marketing.
No, it was not whether white fibre is more expensive. Are you obsessed with marketing lol.
Moving on, does anybody know/have experience w whether the bass will become muddy (sapele vs ovangkol) on a 12-string?
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I can agree on the plastic binding color being a non-issue in pricing, but not the tone woods.
All of the Taylor straight acoustic models from 500-800 level are exactly the same price regardless of the tone wood choices ... rosewood, mahogany, maple ... cedar/spruce ... doesn't matter. They're all priced the same. I suppose that this actually could help support your theory, but I'm thinking it does not.
Personally, I think that rosewood is actually more expensive to acquire than mahogany, and ovangkol is more expensive than sapele, but on the higher-end models, Taylor has chosen just to average things out and ignore the differences in favor of simplifying the issue for buyers. But, they continue to be more sensitive to costs on lower-end models and price 100/200/300/400 models according to the cost of the tone woods used.
This is just my opinion.
You make a reasonable point, but you may not be able to go by the prices listed on the BTO order sheet to calculate the value of wood upgrades on non-BTO models. Granted, Sapele and Ovangkol are the same price on BTOs, but so are Indian Rosewood and Mahogany. I believe the fact that the base price for any BTO sort of over-rides these relatively minor materials considerations, whereas on a standard 300 or 400 model, the price differential between Sapele and Ovangkol is more of an issue. Some of it is marketing for sure, but Ovankgol generally is considered an upgrade over Sapele in the same way that EIR is considered an upgrade over Mahogany and is priced accordingly.
The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
The original question, before the OP edited it, was whether white 'fibre' was more expensive than black plastic, hence the surcharge on the 400 series. The BTO sheet link I posted shows that the white 'fibre' is in fact white plastic, the same material as the black plastic on the 300 series. If they put white plastic on the 300 series and black plastic on the 400 series, the price is not going to change. If they made Sapele the 400 series and Ovangkol the 300 series the Sapele would be more expensive than Ovangkol. Marketing.
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The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
Great news, everyone! Our 800- and 900-series guitars have been declared to be ridiculous! Thank goodness! We can now get rid of these guitars so that we may live without suffering the tyranny of bling.
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Thanks all,
Has anyone compared an ovangkol 12-string to a sapele one?
Which one is more likely to have a muddy bass?
Which one is likely to be the better instrument? (i won't be able to try them before i buy them unfortunately but i am buying nonetheless)
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Thanks all,
Has anyone compared an ovangkol 12-string to a sapele one?
Which one is more likely to have a muddy bass?
Are you referring to clarity of note separation, or the lack thereof, when you talk of a "muddy bass"?
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Thanks all,
Has anyone compared an ovangkol 12-string to a sapele one?
Which one is more likely to have a muddy bass?
Are you referring to clarity of note separation, or the lack thereof, when you talk of a "muddy bass"?
I assume muddy bass means poor note separation...??? but specifically for a 12-string. I've heard they're both fine for 6string guitars but i want to check which one is better for a 12-string.
Cindy said i should ask to see if anyone has compared 12-string ovangkol to sapele as one might have a muddy bass. Has anyone compared the 455ce to the 355ce?
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I assume muddy bass means poor note separation...??? but specifically for a 12-string. I've heard they're both fine for 6string guitars but i want to check which one is better for a 12-string.
[/quote]
Just curious - I don't own, or aspire to own, a 12-string, but is clear note separation necessarily an advantage with this type of guitar? I would have thought that the blending of notes would be one its attractive features.
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As the proud owner of a GA3-12 sapele, I am very happy with the sound and playability. I can't imagine ovangkol sounding any better. So personally, even though I haven't compared them side-by-side, I would not pay the upcharge to get the ovangkol on the GA4-12. For one trivial thing, aesthetically I'm not wild about the look of the contrasting color of the mahogany neck attached to the ovangkol body.
Thanks all,
Has anyone compared an ovangkol 12-string to a sapele one?
Which one is more likely to have a muddy bass?
Which one is likely to be the better instrument? (i won't be able to try them before i buy them unfortunately but i am buying nonetheless)
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Just curious - I don't own, or aspire to own, a 12-string, but is clear note separation necessarily an advantage with this type of guitar? I would have thought that the blending of notes would be one its attractive features.
I'm not sure. Maybe you are right.
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Every time I've played a solid sapele b/s model aginst ovangkol, I preferred the balanced warmth of the sapele. It seems to work really nicely with to balance the spruce top. I prefer the look too, sapele on the 3 series is beautiful, whereas I always think the 4 series ovangkol would look nicer glossed. Incidently, I played a GA3 just recently which I thought was marvellous, and as I recall had the white binding on it too. Very tempting....
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I'm a recent 3-series buyer - in my case, a GC3. I'm thoroughly delighted with it. It has a wonderful ring and sustain.
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I had told you that I prefer ovangkol to sapele, although they're both fine choices. However, if I had to choose between the two for a 12 string, I'd probably go wth the sapele, based on how I think a 12-string should sound. Sapele's brightness and ample bass will provide the "jangle" and separation that I look for in a 12-string. Just my $.02...
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You make a reasonable point, but you may not be able to go by the prices listed on the BTO order sheet to calculate the value of wood upgrades on non-BTO models. Granted, Sapele and Ovangkol are the same price on BTOs, but so are Indian Rosewood and Mahogany. I believe the fact that the base price for any BTO sort of over-rides these relatively minor materials considerations, whereas on a standard 300 or 400 model, the price differential between Sapele and Ovangkol is more of an issue. Some of it is marketing for sure, but Ovankgol generally is considered an upgrade over Sapele in the same way that EIR is considered an upgrade over Mahogany and is priced accordingly.
The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
The original question, before the OP edited it, was whether white 'fibre' was more expensive than black plastic, hence the surcharge on the 400 series. The BTO sheet link I posted shows that the white 'fibre' is in fact white plastic, the same material as the black plastic on the 300 series. If they put white plastic on the 300 series and black plastic on the 400 series, the price is not going to change. If they made Sapele the 400 series and Ovangkol the 300 series the Sapele would be more expensive than Ovangkol. Marketing.
I think that is false. Taylor would not likely do that because the buyers generally will not pay more for Sapele than for Ovangkol. You might argue the consumer is wrong but that is beside the point. The 300 and 400 series have identical appointments and their willingness to pay significantly more for Ovangkol should not be chalked up to silly buyers fooled by a numbering scheme.
My own experience was that I preferred the Ovangkol over Sapele for accompanying my voice. Heck I liked it better than the Rosewood models costing thousands more.
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My own experience was that I preferred the Ovangkol over Sapele for accompanying my voice. Heck I liked it better than the Rosewood models costing thousands more.
Was that for a 12-string instrument?
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I had told you that I prefer ovangkol to sapele, although they're both fine choices. However, if I had to choose between the two for a 12 string, I'd probably go wth the sapele, based on how I think a 12-string should sound. Sapele's brightness and ample bass will provide the "jangle" and separation that I look for in a 12-string. Just my $.02...
Thanks for your input. If you're saying the sapele 12 will have the bass, brightness, jangle, separation...what would an ovangkol 12 soung like?
Much appreciated
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I had told you that I prefer ovangkol to sapele, although they're both fine choices. However, if I had to choose between the two for a 12 string, I'd probably go wth the sapele, based on how I think a 12-string should sound. Sapele's brightness and ample bass will provide the "jangle" and separation that I look for in a 12-string. Just my $.02...
Thanks for your input. If you're saying the sapele 12 will have the bass, brightness, jangle, separation...what would an ovangkol 12 soung like?
Much appreciated
Responded to your PM. Hope that helps! Enjoy your quest!
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No, it wouldn't sound wrong. I believe that ovangkol is a great all-purpose tone wood that can satisfy both rosewood and mahogany tastes, much the same as Taylor's GA shape is a great all purpose tool for all different styles. When you get into specialized needs, such as fingerstyle, bluegrass, or 12-string guitars, it's important to consider tonewoods or shapes that support these. For 12-string, conventional wisdom has always leaned towards maple or mahogany. Sapele provides the best of both these tonewoods (IMO) for a great 12-string sound. Some of the best 12-string sounds I've ever heard came out of 300 series Taylors.
I thought i would add the above as it's a great contribution.
From what i've read on Taylor's website it seems that maple is good for a 12 because it has fast note decay, clean articulation and good note definition; mahogany has well-balanced tone, nice dynamic range and overtones; sapele is similar to hog but has a bit more treble zing; ovangkol is similar to rosewood but has a fuller midrange and slightly brighter top end.
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This always helps!
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5639/tonegraph.jpg)
Picked up a 514ce (cedar over Mahogany) and they nailed what tone could be expected to a T.
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Judging by that diagram, Macassar ebony looks like the worst of all worlds! ;)
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The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
Great news, everyone! Our 800- and 900-series guitars have been declared to be ridiculous! Thank goodness! We can now get rid of these guitars so that we may live without suffering the tyranny of bling.
just wondering which is the most ridiculous ???
800 I 800 II
(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/50709/2678845220081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)(http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/19595/2192957480081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
900 II 900 III/V
(http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/49077/2399943440081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)(http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/50318/2224545190081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
once that is determined, i may consider it on an all koa deep body dread BTO ;)
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just wondering which is the most ridiculous ???
My vote goes to the impression of a woman's ovaries! ;D
(Sorry Michael - couldn't resist! Just kidding, of course. They look great.)
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As mentioned in an earlier post, try to find both and have someone play them while you stand in front and hear them. I liked my 614ce while I was playing it. I LOVE it since I heard it while our guitar player was jamming on it!
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I just purchased a 356ce 12 string. The combination of sapele and spruce is incredible. No muddy bass, midrange is just right, and it does jangle! I was just at a Taylor road show a couple of weeks ago. The Taylor rep demonstrated an ovangkol guitar. He mentioned the wood looks like the paneling in your grandfather's basement, but said check out the sound. And it was great. I am happy with my new 356 and the wood combination. But if you choose ovangkol you'll be doing just fine. You'll be buying a "quality guitar"!
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I think Sapele vs Ovangkol is similar to the Mahog vs Rosewood argument. It depends on your tastes.
On inlays I think everything else is tame compared to this.
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii505/rgthemusicguy/crazyinlay.jpg)
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The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
Great news, everyone! Our 800- and 900-series guitars have been declared to be ridiculous! Thank goodness! We can now get rid of these guitars so that we may live without suffering the tyranny of bling.
LOL... Glad I read this thread. I'm busy using a black Sharpie to obliterate the fretboard inlays on my 816ce. I had no idea how stupid I was for liking them. :-[ Embarrassing. Thankfully, now I'll have a non-ridiculous plain fretboard. I'm thinking of using some White-Out to paint a few dots, though. I get lost easily! ;)
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I think that is false. Taylor would not likely do that because the buyers generally will not pay more for Sapele than for Ovangkol. You might argue the consumer is wrong but that is beside the point. The 300 and 400 series have identical appointments and their willingness to pay significantly more for Ovangkol should not be chalked up to silly buyers fooled by a numbering scheme.
My own experience was that I preferred the Ovangkol over Sapele for accompanying my voice. Heck I liked it better than the Rosewood models costing thousands more.
Not to nitpick, but that is not true. The 400 has [multiple choice: A. nicer, B. more ridiculous, C. larger, D. more expensive, E. some combination of A through D] fretboard inlays (called "Progressive Dots") than the 300, which has "4mm Dots." I kinda like the progressive dots, but then I like my "ridiculous" 800 series fretboard inlays, so don't listen to me. ;)
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I agree with you totally, so I assume your reply was to Black Beauty and not to me (Blackville) ... ?
You make a reasonable point, but you may not be able to go by the prices listed on the BTO order sheet to calculate the value of wood upgrades on non-BTO models. Granted, Sapele and Ovangkol are the same price on BTOs, but so are Indian Rosewood and Mahogany. I believe the fact that the base price for any BTO sort of over-rides these relatively minor materials considerations, whereas on a standard 300 or 400 model, the price differential between Sapele and Ovangkol is more of an issue. Some of it is marketing for sure, but Ovankgol generally is considered an upgrade over Sapele in the same way that EIR is considered an upgrade over Mahogany and is priced accordingly.
The Fall LTD series will often show that without the ridiculous inlays on the 800 and 900 series Rosewood can be cheaper than Mahogany.
The original question, before the OP edited it, was whether white 'fibre' was more expensive than black plastic, hence the surcharge on the 400 series. The BTO sheet link I posted shows that the white 'fibre' is in fact white plastic, the same material as the black plastic on the 300 series. If they put white plastic on the 300 series and black plastic on the 400 series, the price is not going to change. If they made Sapele the 400 series and Ovangkol the 300 series the Sapele would be more expensive than Ovangkol. Marketing.
I think that is false. Taylor would not likely do that because the buyers generally will not pay more for Sapele than for Ovangkol. You might argue the consumer is wrong but that is beside the point. The 300 and 400 series have identical appointments and their willingness to pay significantly more for Ovangkol should not be chalked up to silly buyers fooled by a numbering scheme.
My own experience was that I preferred the Ovangkol over Sapele for accompanying my voice. Heck I liked it better than the Rosewood models costing thousands more.
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i've had an all mahoghany(cousin of the sapele) dread that i no longer own. only because i didn't care for the warm sound, which was almost flat. perhaps as a parlor guitar.
i do own a martin ovangkol w/rosewood wedge dread that i won't be giving up soon. it sings. i was surprised at its voice compared to sapele, mahoghany, and rosewoods.
i also have the 414ce ltd rosewood, which is a great guitar and tonally completely different from the ovangkol.
ovangkol is the most underrated wood. at the local taylor/martin dealer, one of the long time sales guys told me his favorite guitar was the 414ce with the standard ovangkol.
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I'm also a big ovangkol fan (see signature) for its "complete" tonal range, but as a reminder, the OP is considering ovangkol against sapele for a 12-string. Until I get to hear more ovangkol 12-strings, I'd still pick sapele for a 12-string, based on its zing and snap.
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for me, depending on the body size being considered & the 12 strings models i've played/owned
the 455ce seemed to have a slightly more balanced tone, but the 356ce still gets 'the nod' (imho)
the current 300/400 series shows to have fiber listed as the heel cap material, which is likely the
same as the binding, although earlier models have used plastic & 04-06s has unbound fretboards -
the original 91-97 400 series had black binding, which was also used some LTDs models (00 LOTF maple)
up until this year, the aesthetics, other than the binding, on the 300/400 series was the same -
large 6.33 mm MOP dot fretmarkers were used on both series, while the current the 300s have
4mm pearloid dots & the 400s have engraved 'progressive pearloid dots, so the change was recent
the difference in price between the 300 & 400s & the XX3/XX4s is roughly the same & seeing that the acoustic,
non-cutaway series has identical aesthetics in the 3 & 4s, the upcharge seems to be purely for the different
tonewoods & could be related to the differences in the process required from start-to-finish (wood-to-guitar)
on-the-other-hand, if both the 300 & 400 series had identical appointments, & pricing, the difference
would be in the tone & what the individual player prefers (which is the way it is on the acoustic 5-8s now)
pretty much everything being discussed here is subjective -
one likes what one likes & there is no 'right-or-wrong' answer
i believe that respecting each others opinions & agreeing-to-disagree is needed,
rather than trying to continually hammer away on a point where there is no 'winner'
ymmv
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sapele i have found to be warm and like its mahoghany cousin it has a fireplace tone.
ovangkol on the other hand has a brighter voice with more punch. the highs are crisper to me and the bass can pound if you like.
i sold a 000-15m and a sapele before i settled on my dc 16-ogte with ovangkol back/sides and eir wedge. one of the best kept secrets in my opinion.
on the other hand my 414c-ltdr is just sweet.