Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Topic started by: Tammany Tiger on February 01, 2012, 01:35:49 AM
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Does anyone know whether tuning buttons on Taylor slot head tuners can be easily replaced? I am thinking about a 12 fret BTO in darker woods and would like to replace the ivory buttons with Ebony or Snakewood.
Any thoughts?
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Last summer my 814ce fell over and I broke a trebble tuner. The broken one I noticed had the shaft molded into to the ivoroid button. I do not believe the Taylor Ping slothead tuners have the capability of switching buttons. There are always Waverlys to consider however being new to guitars I do not know if you will have a footprint problem. If you don't Go for the Waverly Sloane model tuners, They are beautiful. I'm sure Taylor customer service or Ted who sells many BTO's can answer your question as to whether other tuners will fit.
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No, you cannot replace the tuner buttons. You have to replace the tuners with the type you want.
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Last summer my 814ce fell over and I broke a trebble tuner. The broken one I noticed had the shaft molded into to the ivoroid button. I do not believe the Taylor Ping slothead tuners have the capability of switching buttons. There are always Waverlys to consider however being new to guitars I do not know if you will have a footprint problem. If you don't Go for the Waverly Sloane model tuners, They are beautiful. I'm sure Taylor customer service or Ted who sells many BTO's can answer your question as to whether other tuners will fit.
Thanks for the reply. I will order the guitar through Jim Tordoff at Guitar Rodeo whom I understand sells more BTOs than anyone on the country. This will be my third BTO with him going back a number of years and I am confident that he will know. I have yet to ask a BTO question that he could not answer.
My post was more directed to finding out whether folks had installed after market tuning buttons of the type available through Stew Mac and some other suppliers. I am a little on the fence about whether to spec a 12 fret. Taylor's Customer Service Department confirmed today 12 frets are only available with slot heads which I generally do not like. When I asked about button options and aftermarket changeout I was told that the dealer would need to ask the Taylor BTO Department directly.
Part of my reason for disliking Taylor's slot heads is cosmetic, part of it is because they do not feel as precise as the Gotoh 510s. I figured that I could at least minimize the cosmetic problem with darker buttons given that woods and finishes that I am considering.
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the 12 fret tuner buttons do not appear to be fastened by a set screw (they look 'press-fit' to me) &
the area of the tuner body that supports the tuner button shaft seems to be enclosed, which would make
removing the shafts very difficult (if it is possible to do so) to have the buttons removed & new ones installed
here are some Gotohs 15:1 (the black buttons are plastic)
http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/thirdproducts.asp?NameProdHeader=Gotoh%99+Steel+String+Slot-Head (http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/thirdproducts.asp?NameProdHeader=Gotoh%99+Steel+String+Slot-Head)
Schertlers 18:1 (the tuners may be available in other finishes & the genuiune ebony buttons are replaceable)
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners/Schertler_Tuning_Machines_for_Slotted_Peghead_Guitar.html (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners/Schertler_Tuning_Machines_for_Slotted_Peghead_Guitar.html)
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the 12 fret tuner buttons do not appear to be fastened by a set screw (they look 'press-fit' to me) &
the area of the tuner body that supports the tuner button shaft seems to be enclosed, which would make
removing the shafts very difficult (if it is possible to do so) to have the buttons removed & new ones installed
here are some Gotohs 15:1 (the black buttons are plastic)
http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/thirdproducts.asp?NameProdHeader=Gotoh%99+Steel+String+Slot-Head (http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/thirdproducts.asp?NameProdHeader=Gotoh%99+Steel+String+Slot-Head)
Schertlers 18:1 (the tuners may be available in other finishes & the genuiune ebony buttons are replaceable)
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners/Schertler_Tuning_Machines_for_Slotted_Peghead_Guitar.html (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners/Schertler_Tuning_Machines_for_Slotted_Peghead_Guitar.html)
Thanks, Michael. It has been awhile since I have looked at these tuners and your response is exactly what I was looking for. If there is no screw at the head of the button, I can't imagine that the buttons can be changed.
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the 30th anniversary GC 14 fret short scale slotheads used Waverlys (3 on-plate)
http://www.imagineguitars.com/archive/acoustic/019_taylor_xxx_br/index.html (http://www.imagineguitars.com/archive/acoustic/019_taylor_xxx_br/index.html)
but those tuners appear to have buttons that are 'pressed-on' as well, unless the tuner
shaft screws go all the way through the shafts & the buttons have threaded inserts
the 12 fret 814ceLTDs that i've seen pics of have individual machines that are
each held down by 2 anchors screws (6 per side), rather than 4 screws on-plate
i am wondering if the reason why the 12 frets have the slotted headstock, other than aesthetics,
is that possibly by having the tuner posts below the surface of the headstock, it creates a greater
break angle on the strings over the nut ??? or, it could be that the tooling is currently set-up for the
slotted headstocks only on 12 frets, as there is a solid or slotted headstock option for 14 fret necks
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Totally off topic but I think Taylor's slotheads are gorgeous.
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The BTO spec sheets for the 12 fret do list a choice of slotted or standard peghead.
The slotted does have a greater break angle, which should increase playability.
:)
-K
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Taylor Customer Service told me yesterday that only the slot heads are available.
I just got off the phone with Jim Tordoff and worked up an order on the guitar. He is sending me the build sheet in a minute so we will know for sure.
As a practical matter, I will not order a standard peghead without Gotoh 510s so ordering it with the standard slot head is a big money saver. Overall I am fine with the slot heads and with the money that I have saved on Gotohs and Addi CV bracing (also not available as a 12 fret option), I have done some nice things on the guitar such as ordering it with a bone saddle and nut and upgrading from black plastic binding to ebony.
The guitar will be an all mahogany 12 fret GC non cutaway. Edgeburst finish all over. Ebony binding, three piece back with ebony mini wedge. Ebony rosette with bound sound hole. Cream and white purfling. No fretboard markers. Gloss back, sides and top; satin neck. No electronics. Bone nut and saddle.
I solved the ivory tuner button problem by ordering the guitar with no end or strap pins. This will enable me to add ivory pins and to use straps with ordinary sized strap holes. The ivory end pin, cream purfling and ivory tuners will be nice accents to the overall dark color of the guitar.
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The BTO spec sheets for the 12 fret do list a choice of slotted or standard peghead.
The slotted does have a greater break angle, which should increase playability.
:)
-K
Can someone explain to me why the increased break angle improves playability? I have always heard that the break angle increases string tension to help the slot head tuners stay in tune better. One of the playability advantages of short scale guitars is relaxed string tension so aren't we going backwards a bit?
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The BTO spec sheets for the 12 fret do list a choice of slotted or standard peghead.
The slotted does have a greater break angle, which should increase playability.
:)
-K
Can someone explain to me why the increased break angle improves playability? I have always heard that the break angle increases string tension to help the slot head tuners stay in tune better. One of the playability advantages of short scale guitars is relaxed string tension so aren't we going backwards a bit?
+1
I don't know why this is, either. It's just something I've heard from knowledgeable people at well known stores (Podium, GR, etc). I would like to know the physics behind this.
To me, it seems counter-intuitive that there would be a difference in tension from one headstock style to another - if you change the tension you change the pitch (if string gauge is constant).
???
-Kris
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As I think about this, part of the problem is my own careless use of the term "tension." As I have understood the issue, the higher break angle increases friction on the nut so that the tuners have less movement to control. Viewed that way, the string tension below the nut should be the same.
I'm still confused about how the break angle improves playability.
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Tammany, Jim also sells Santa Cruz guitars. Your Taylor all mahogany will not have the voice that a Santa Cruz Mahogany will have. I'm sure Jim will confirm this and it is not that much more than your BTO Taylor! Jim I'm sure would consider giving you one of his SC build slots. If you search the AGF under SC there are nothing but raves about their hog 00and 000's. Don't see many folks extolling their sound. I've played a BTO all hog satin GC that was very quiet. All hog Taylors sound is not in their wheelhouse! Just a thought!
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hi Tammany,
i would suggest contacting Jim directly regarding input on guitars that
you may be considering that he is a dealer for, as you've done business
with him in the past & i believe the rapport you have with Jim is very good,
in terms of likes & dislikes, along with desirabilities in aesthetics & tone
good luck with your decision & i hope that your next guitar
is everything you would like it to be ... & then some :D
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Thanks very much. Jim ordered an SC 1929 OO for me last year and I was extremely disappointed in the tone. I love SC OMs but that smaller guitar just did not have it, at least to my ear.
Fortunately I was able to sell it for cash and a trade the I then sold and ended up a few dollars ahead.
I would like to play an SC OOO mahogany but just cannot find one. Also, that guitar is essentially the size of my GA.
I will end up keeping a Santa Cruz of some sort one day. This small guitar quest for me has just gotten out of hand. I never really wanted this much of a fuss.
Thanks for thinking of me.
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Thanks for these recent replies. This is actually an old thread and about ten days after I started it, Jim and I finalized an all mahogany GC 12 fret build.
There is a thread on UTGF that I started describing the guitar. It is entitled "Mahogany 12 Fret BTO On The Way."
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Tammany, Oddly enough, I have been looking for an 00 size and the one I like most for around $XX00 is at The Podium website and it is their custom Martin 0018v with an Engelmann top. They have a soundfile for it. In second place for around $XX00 is the standard Martin 0018v which Maurys Music on the web has. Also Wildwood Music on the web. Both Martin dealers.
edited for price
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Thanks for these recent replies. This is actually an old thread and about ten days after I started it, Jim and I finalized an all mahogany GC 12 fret build.
There is a thread on UTGF that I started describing the guitar. It is entitled "Mahogany 12 Fret BTO On The Way."
yep ... here it is :)
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1047.0 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1047.0)
in terms of slotted vs solid headstock, the differences i see are mass & position of the tuner posts -
the slotted headstock will have less mass than a solid headstock, combined with open-back tuners &
non-metal (i. e. ivoroid) buttons vs enclosed tuners (Taylor or Gotoh) with either non-metal or metal
buttons (Grover rotomatics are heavier still) & perhaps to compensate (?) for the reduction in mass,
the lower position of the tuner posts permit a greater break angle of the strings over the saddle,
similar to how a pin bridge has a lower anchor point for the string ends than a pinless bridge
the strings seem to be pulled down at a more exaggerated angle across the nut with a slotted
headstock, granted the winds on the tuner posts on a solid headstock bring the string termination
below the nut, but it is above the level of the headstock, rather than being in the middle (slotted)
the NT neck is designed so that the saddle can be set at height that allows a strong break angle &
the neck pitch & fretboard height are adjustable in relation to the bridge to set the desired action -
there are times when lowering the saddle height may still be desirable, even with the optimum
shim set installed, but that would be completely dependent on a player's personal preference
from what i can determine, the playability (slotted vs solid headstock) should be the same, provided
the action at the nut, neck relief, saddle height, action, scale length, string type & gauge are identical -
nut material & string coating (if coated strings are used) may result in less friction, which may allow for
easier string bending, but provided the slots are cut properly & there is no binding ('pinging' while tuning),
'identical' guitars, save for slotted or solid headstock, should pretty much play 'identically', or be very close
the next time i'm at my local music store i'll try to compare a 612ce to a XXX-MS to compare headstock
angles (i've heard that some slotted headstock angles are not set 'as far back' as solid ones & to see
if there seems to be a discernable difference in playability, but seeing as you have already chosen the
slotted headstock on your BTO, this would be more for me to satisfy my own personal curiousity ...
play on :D
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The BTO spec sheets for the 12 fret do list a choice of slotted or standard peghead.Can someone explain to me why the increased break angle improves playability? I have always heard that the break angle increases string tension to help the slot head tuners stay in tune better. One of the playability advantages of short scale guitars is relaxed string tension so aren't we going backwards a bit? [/font][/size][/color]
It doesn't "improve" playability. It simply makes it "different".
Whether or not it's "improved" depends entirely on the player...
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The BTO spec sheets for the 12 fret do list a choice of slotted or standard peghead.Can someone explain to me why the increased break angle improves playability? I have always heard that the break angle increases string tension to help the slot head tuners stay in tune better. One of the playability advantages of short scale guitars is relaxed string tension so aren't we going backwards a bit? [/font][/size][/color]
It doesn't "improve" playability. It simply makes it "different".
Whether or not it's "improved" depends entirely on the player...
How is the playability different though?
I'll be honest, I can't tell much difference but I have heard a dozen times now that the slotted headstock improves or changes playability.