Author Topic: So long Wood & Steel  (Read 8184 times)

Soof

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2023, 09:57:46 PM »
I'm a print guy from long ago.  Especially car mags which are falling by the wayside.
But what I will miss the most is the smell of ink on the printed page!!!
Martin D-20 12 string (1970)
Yamaha APX500III
Taylor 110e Prototype (2016)
Fender Squier Vintage Modified 70s Tele
Reville MV-XM (actually a very nice Gibson copy!)
Donner Strat (copy)

donlyn

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2023, 11:47:56 PM »
Just reading all this give and take about print versus digital doesn't address the issue. It only displays Taylor's unilateral decision making process.

To me the issue is what does the customer prefer. Earlier in the thread, I offered to purchase a paid subscription if that were available.

To date, I have seen ZERO survey requests on how I feel about this and would I then pay to help subsidize a print version. The answer is still yes. I have a sub to 'Fretboard Journal' and that isn't cheap, and it's quarterly. And I will admit to using the W&S digital version to access some stuff from early issues.

I also read multiple books a month let alone a year. About half are fiction (more if you count historical fiction as a learning tool), and the useful non-fiction books become personal library reference material. And It's not subject to electrical blackouts, no-service, or battery drains. I do have a kindle, and the only good feature is to choose the size of the type. How do I go back to the last chapter to re-read something I missed or mis-interpreted?

I learned to play from guitar books, starting with the Mel Bay chord book.

And when I go looking at guitars, I bring an old analog caliper (inherited from my grandfather) to check string gauges. Newer digital ones fail miserably and are larger and way awkward to schlep around, let alone use. Guess how I know?

So to bemoan a lost cause, as far as I know Taylor did not canvas it's current 'subscribers' to see what opinions are out there and would a subscription be economically viable. Especially since the only way you could get a sub to W&S was to purchase and register a new Taylor guitar. And W&S was advertising new products to it's current customers just by featuring new models in the magazine. How may sales did that influence?

I personally own a half-dozen Taylors. The only one I didn't find out about in W&S was the first one I bought new in '99. And I had a friend who owned a couple of Taylors at the time so I knew what I was getting into, and how good they were. I realize the pandemic made a lot of things difficult and different, but to like the song goes, my Taylor 'brand loyalty' is slip-slidin' away.

And my personal best argument for a print version:
I totally refuse to bring an electronic device into the bathroom for sitting on the 'Throne of China'.
(Old habits die hard.)

Be well and play well,

Don
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 11:55:45 PM by donlyn »
* The Heard:
85 Gibson J 200  sitka/rosewood Jumbo
99 Taylor 355  sitka/sapele 12 string Jumbo
06 Alvarez AJ60S  englemann/mpl lam m Jumbo
14 Taylor 818e  sitka/rosewood Grand Orchestra
05 Taylor 512ce L10  all mahogany Grand Concert
09 Taylor  all walnut Jumbo
16 Taylor 412e-R SE  sitka/rosewood GC
16 Taylor 458e-R  sitka/rosewood 12 string GO
21 Epiphone J-200  sitka/maple Jumbo
22 Guild F-1512 s/rw 12 string Jumbo

* Tenor Ukuleles:
Kala KA STG
Kala KA APT5 CTG 5 string

Edward

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2023, 01:03:38 PM »
Well, Don,

Your thoughts are not lost on this thread.  But Gabriel did address in part the point of a subscription-based mag.  It's still expensive, and they'd still have to pop for all the costs of production for a product/service that they are unsure will be covered by its subscribers.
 
Like I said in my previous post, I get what they're thinking completely.  Unilateral decision because, heck, it's their ball game.  That said, we pay to attend.  So to your point, that economic choice they made may (will?) have repercussions to its existing base who still want product x.  A printed magazine, in itself, certainly is no deal killer.  But changes made that do not please the base, over time, in sum, absolutely affect a company's reputation and street cred which, bottom line, affects their bottom line.  Time will tell as I'm just a guy with a regular day job who likes music.  :D

Edward

SDTaylorman

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2023, 01:47:55 PM »
changes made that do not please the base, over time, in sum, absolutely affect a company's reputation and street cred which, bottom line, affects their bottom line. 

Quoted for factualness. We buy an expensive instrument and then they say the little magazine is costing them too much? I think it's this type of mindset (along with increased competition) that is and will continue to cost Taylor their customer base.

Just to point out that e-magazines aren't exactly green either (responding to the "bin" comment made about one of my earlier posts). It takes a lot of fossil fuel generated energy to create, store and distribute an online magazine and that's just a fact. At least my old W&S's went on to become something else made from paper. The e-version just continues to eat electricity whether I read it or not and long after anyone stops reading it altogether.

Toucan256

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2023, 08:33:11 PM »
Just reading all this give and take about print versus digital doesn't address the issue. It only displays Taylor's unilateral decision making process.

To me the issue is what does the customer prefer. Earlier in the thread, I offered to purchase a paid subscription if that were available.

To date, I have seen ZERO survey requests on how I feel about this and would I then pay to help subsidize a print version. The answer is still yes. I have a sub to 'Fretboard Journal' and that isn't cheap, and it's quarterly. And I will admit to using the W&S digital version to access some stuff from early issues.

I also read multiple books a month let alone a year. About half are fiction (more if you count historical fiction as a learning tool), and the useful non-fiction books become personal library reference material. And It's not subject to electrical blackouts, no-service, or battery drains. I do have a kindle, and the only good feature is to choose the size of the type. How do I go back to the last chapter to re-read something I missed or mis-interpreted?

I learned to play from guitar books, starting with the Mel Bay chord book.

And when I go looking at guitars, I bring an old analog caliper (inherited from my grandfather) to check string gauges. Newer digital ones fail miserably and are larger and way awkward to schlep around, let alone use. Guess how I know?

So to bemoan a lost cause, as far as I know Taylor did not canvas it's current 'subscribers' to see what opinions are out there and would a subscription be economically viable. Especially since the only way you could get a sub to W&S was to purchase and register a new Taylor guitar. And W&S was advertising new products to it's current customers just by featuring new models in the magazine. How may sales did that influence?

I personally own a half-dozen Taylors. The only one I didn't find out about in W&S was the first one I bought new in '99. And I had a friend who owned a couple of Taylors at the time so I knew what I was getting into, and how good they were. I realize the pandemic made a lot of things difficult and different, but to like the song goes, my Taylor 'brand loyalty' is slip-slidin' away.

And my personal best argument for a print version:
I totally refuse to bring an electronic device into the bathroom for sitting on the 'Throne of China'.
(Old habits die hard.)

Be well and play well,

Don
I do some of my best reading/thinking on the commode, but I'm a old man with old ways.

Earl

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2023, 11:37:56 PM »
As I said before, I would be perfectly happy with a PDF download for each quarterly issue, as they have long done.  I find their web formatting to be odd and unstable, whereas a PDF is always easy to handle - it doesn't do anything like scroll, link, or zoom unless I ask it to.  The business decision to stop publishing the expensive paper magazine for us dinosaurs is understandable.  As a business owner I probably would do the same.  But please don't force me to suffer through that truly God-awful web format that executes un-commanded jumps and scrolls, making the normal content nearly impossible to read and an exercise in frustration.  It is bad on my Windows desktop with Chrome as a browser, and even worse on my current iPad with the latest IOS.  I almost never watch the videos anyway, but spend half of my time on the web page scrolling up and down just to finish sentences.  Arrggghhh!   :o   :(

if you look at my profile and ownership history, many of them were LTD's or brand new models.  Guess where you learn about limited editions?  I have asked dealers to order those on my behalf, and might never have known but for Wood & Steel.
Taylors:  424-LTD (all koa) and a 114ce that lives with friends in Alaska.  Low maintenance carbon fiber guitars are my "thing" these days, but I will always keep the koa 424.  Several ukulele and bass guitars too. 
*Gone but not forgotten:  a 2001 414ce, 410, 354-LTD twelve string, 314-N, 416-LTD baritone, T5 Classic, 615ce, 2006 GS-K, 1996 (first year) Baby

donlyn

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2023, 11:58:58 PM »
Just reading all this give and take about print versus digital doesn't address the issue. It only displays Taylor's unilateral decision making process.

To me the issue is what does the customer prefer. Earlier in the thread, I offered to purchase a paid subscription if that were available.

To date, I have seen ZERO survey requests on how I feel about this and would I then pay to help subsidize a print version. The answer is still yes. I have a sub to 'Fretboard Journal' and that isn't cheap, and it's quarterly. And I will admit to using the W&S digital version to access some stuff from early issues.

I also read multiple books a month let alone a year. About half are fiction (more if you count historical fiction as a learning tool), and the useful non-fiction books become personal library reference material. And It's not subject to electrical blackouts, no-service, or battery drains. I do have a kindle, and the only good feature is to choose the size of the type. How do I go back to the last chapter to re-read something I missed or mis-interpreted?

I learned to play from guitar books, starting with the Mel Bay chord book.

And when I go looking at guitars, I bring an old analog caliper (inherited from my grandfather) to check string gauges. Newer digital ones fail miserably and are larger and way awkward to schlep around, let alone use. Guess how I know?

So to bemoan a lost cause, as far as I know Taylor did not canvas it's current 'subscribers' to see what opinions are out there and would a subscription be economically viable. Especially since the only way you could get a sub to W&S was to purchase and register a new Taylor guitar. And W&S was advertising new products to it's current customers just by featuring new models in the magazine. How may sales did that influence?

I personally own a half-dozen Taylors. The only one I didn't find out about in W&S was the first one I bought new in '99. And I had a friend who owned a couple of Taylors at the time so I knew what I was getting into, and how good they were. I realize the pandemic made a lot of things difficult and different, but to like the song goes, my Taylor 'brand loyalty' is slip-slidin' away.

And my personal best argument for a print version:
I totally refuse to bring an electronic device into the bathroom for sitting on the 'Throne of China'.
(Old habits die hard.)

Be well and play well,

Don
I do some of my best reading/thinking on the commode, but I'm a old man with old ways.

Just for the record, so am I; 3/4 of a century's worth of milestones behind me. And I'm not planning to go anywhere. And it is my opinion that since the magazine was never marketed to the public, and was often given away free at Taylor dealers' locations, it was never designed to cost money. It has been making all it's readers feel like members of the Taylor community and served a dual purpose in alerting these members to new additions to the Taylor line. Which goes back to sales and loss leaders. Besides, they have been well written and informative, and I could easily excuse any Taylor bias. Mostly because I already had a pro-Taylor bias myself, and W&S was some gratis grease to keep me interested and motivated. Most every Taylor player I know or heard about owned more than one Taylor. Not an accident.

Case in point. I personally got a new Taylor 818e directly because of the magazine, not to mention that previously owning a Taylor made it easy to get more of these fine guitars. Which also led me to wanting/getting a 12 string version of the same guitar. (I am a big 12 string fan.) And it's very possible that my playing Taylors may have resulted in others liking and buying a Taylor too. Just think of it as a variant of product placement at a grass-roots level.

And post-pandemic, the last few times I played out, I used either an Epiphone J-200 Jumbo or a Guild F-1512 12 string Jumbo. Mostly because they are my latest instruments and am still learning their idiosyncrasies. And they are both all solid wood guitars with the sound to prove it.

Don

« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 01:16:21 AM by donlyn »
* The Heard:
85 Gibson J 200  sitka/rosewood Jumbo
99 Taylor 355  sitka/sapele 12 string Jumbo
06 Alvarez AJ60S  englemann/mpl lam m Jumbo
14 Taylor 818e  sitka/rosewood Grand Orchestra
05 Taylor 512ce L10  all mahogany Grand Concert
09 Taylor  all walnut Jumbo
16 Taylor 412e-R SE  sitka/rosewood GC
16 Taylor 458e-R  sitka/rosewood 12 string GO
21 Epiphone J-200  sitka/maple Jumbo
22 Guild F-1512 s/rw 12 string Jumbo

* Tenor Ukuleles:
Kala KA STG
Kala KA APT5 CTG 5 string

donlyn

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2023, 12:48:22 AM »
Well, Don,

Your thoughts are not lost on this thread.  But Gabriel did address in part the point of a subscription-based mag.  It's still expensive, and they'd still have to pop for all the costs of production for a product/service that they are unsure will be covered by its subscribers.
 
Like I said in my previous post, I get what they're thinking completely.  Unilateral decision because, heck, it's their ball game.  That said, we pay to attend.  So to your point, that economic choice they made may (will?) have repercussions to its existing base who still want product x.  A printed magazine, in itself, certainly is no deal killer.  But changes made that do not please the base, over time, in sum, absolutely affect a company's reputation and street cred which, bottom line, affects their bottom line.  Time will tell as I'm just a guy with a regular day job who likes music.  :D

Edward

Not saying I don't understand the corporate mindset of squeezing every inch of profit and making sure that everything fits into the big picture. Nor do I doubt the time and expense of producing W&S. But think of it this way. It was never meant to be a profit-making enterprise. It really has been, in it's simplest form, a marketing tool and a good will effort to both explain the company and it's goals and to stay in touch with it's growing customer/consumer base. You cannot measure customer satisfaction in dollars and cents. It is mainly measurable by returning customers, which is a subset of those who left with a smile on their face even with the new (and recurring) hole in their wallet.

Quote
But Gabriel did address in part the point of a subscription-based mag.  It's still expensive, and they'd still have to pop for all the costs of production for a product/service that they are unsure will be covered by its subscribers.


Couple of points. Gabriel has a vested interest (his job) in putting together a digital version no matter what. He has no interest or inclination to continue the printed version. To that end, he will do anything in his power to sink that ship. He is not only creating a new product, he is also founding his own fiefdom with his personal serfs. That's how corporate ladder stuff works.

And the second point about "they are unsure it will be covered by it's subscribers".
Who are 'they' exactly? A non-rhetorical question that has never been satisfactorally answered in the entire human condition. Kind of like a 'silent majority'. Who thinks up this oxymoronic stuff anyway?

No evidence has been offered to support this. Just negative supposition. No canvassing of current "free" subscribers. And it's not free either. You still have to buy a new guitar. And since it is not in Gabriel's best interests, there is no way he would even let a hint of a commitment/conversion to a paying subscriber base upset his little apple-cart. Or more correctly his gravy train.

And Taylor is still going to produce a glossy catalogue, but as far as I could tell, it would only be sent to dealers. Thus putting the lie to the "costs and work" to produce a magazine which is more current than a presumably annual catalogue and more interactive with it's customer base.

Just who is benefiting from all this? Follow the money, which was never there in the first place.

Please note that I am not saying that Taylor doesn't have the right to do whatever it wants from any point of view, including financial. I just think there's a lot of BS on the digital plate being served to "justify" this. And if the money to be spent on the magazine went to saving/buying some rainforest, then I would consider that more in line with Taylor's avowed forestry approach, and would certainly approve as worthwhile.

On a personal note, I really like to read for enjoyment, but not at/on a computer screen. If they want to send me a digital W&S, I will accept it for what it is, another research option. Not necessarily for something that was previously enjoyable to read.

Don 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 01:04:00 AM by donlyn »
* The Heard:
85 Gibson J 200  sitka/rosewood Jumbo
99 Taylor 355  sitka/sapele 12 string Jumbo
06 Alvarez AJ60S  englemann/mpl lam m Jumbo
14 Taylor 818e  sitka/rosewood Grand Orchestra
05 Taylor 512ce L10  all mahogany Grand Concert
09 Taylor  all walnut Jumbo
16 Taylor 412e-R SE  sitka/rosewood GC
16 Taylor 458e-R  sitka/rosewood 12 string GO
21 Epiphone J-200  sitka/maple Jumbo
22 Guild F-1512 s/rw 12 string Jumbo

* Tenor Ukuleles:
Kala KA STG
Kala KA APT5 CTG 5 string

SDTaylorman

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2023, 11:41:21 AM »
Well said donlyn, well said.

Edward

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2023, 12:00:31 PM »
Side note 1: No disagreement, Don.  I was simply offering "their" points  (as in the factory's pov) as I interpret them.  Knowing fully well I am speculating.  :)
Side note 2: I wonder if the mothership has their ear to the ground on this, or any customer concern.  Again, that's open speculation but I can't help but wonder aloud.  Heck, it's our forum, right? ...so I'm gonna wonder out loud. ;)

Be well, all ...the times they are a changin, but worry not.  At the very least, I trust we have our own fabulous guits we can turn to for solace! :D

Edward

donlyn

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2023, 01:21:56 PM »
Side note 1: No disagreement, Don.  I was simply offering "their" points  (as in the factory's pov) as I interpret them.  Knowing fully well I am speculating.  :)
Side note 2: I wonder if the mothership has their ear to the ground on this, or any customer concern.  Again, that's open speculation but I can't help but wonder aloud.  Heck, it's our forum, right? ...so I'm gonna wonder out loud. ;)

Be well, all ...the times they are a changin, but worry not.  At the very least, I trust we have our own fabulous guits we can turn to for solace! :D

Edward

Hey Edward,

No beef with you. I got the same impression from Gabriel's comments, but since you summarized them I wanted to not let that pass without commenting. Gabriel has posted here, so somebody is reading this stuff. I don't want to get into any altercations on this, but I've been around the block a few times and my cynicism is showing.

There's an old theory about questions that for every question asked there a a great number of people who didn't want to ask it for whatever reasons, and a greater number of people that didn't even think to ask that question but are now concerned with the answer.

So the number of people currently corresponding here on this issue may be small, and I have no idea of how many other people are reading this at any given moment. But what I do know is that there are a number of people here who have at least a vestige of loyalty to the brand (to me that means enough to care enough to write about it) but don't post very often. Maybe we who are writing here are in a minority, but also maybe not. Based on that question theory at least.

In a minimal, maybe final observation on this topic, I do care what happens, and the receipt of the printed copy I do not take for granted, but appreciate it. It also keeps me connected even though I am not actively looking, but never say never. Unfortunately I seem to be in danger of becoming less connected, at least on an annual basis, and all this doesn't help.

And since the advent of a few issues going digital a while back, digitalization is not surprising, just saddening. 

Don


« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 01:28:22 PM by donlyn »
* The Heard:
85 Gibson J 200  sitka/rosewood Jumbo
99 Taylor 355  sitka/sapele 12 string Jumbo
06 Alvarez AJ60S  englemann/mpl lam m Jumbo
14 Taylor 818e  sitka/rosewood Grand Orchestra
05 Taylor 512ce L10  all mahogany Grand Concert
09 Taylor  all walnut Jumbo
16 Taylor 412e-R SE  sitka/rosewood GC
16 Taylor 458e-R  sitka/rosewood 12 string GO
21 Epiphone J-200  sitka/maple Jumbo
22 Guild F-1512 s/rw 12 string Jumbo

* Tenor Ukuleles:
Kala KA STG
Kala KA APT5 CTG 5 string

Gabrielobrien

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2023, 01:32:27 AM »
changes made that do not please the base, over time, in sum, absolutely affect a company's reputation and street cred which, bottom line, affects their bottom line. 

Quoted for factualness. We buy an expensive instrument and then they say the little magazine is costing them too much? I think it's this type of mindset (along with increased competition) that is and will continue to cost Taylor their customer base.

Just to point out that e-magazines aren't exactly green either (responding to the "bin" comment made about one of my earlier posts). It takes a lot of fossil fuel generated energy to create, store and distribute an online magazine and that's just a fact. At least my old W&S's went on to become something else made from paper. The e-version just continues to eat electricity whether I read it or not and long after anyone stops reading it altogether.

No they didn't. that paper isn't recyclable.

Gabrielobrien

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2023, 02:00:22 AM »
Yikes Don.

First off, you're talking about this as though it's some grand conspiracy or personal affront to you. There is no "lie." Taylor will still provide a box (roughly 25ish copies) of first-of-year catalogs to dealers who want them. That's a print cost they're willing to incur for the dealers. Mailing them directly to what has to be millions of people is an outlandish request. Sure, they could take a survey and see if people are willing to pay but when it comes time to print copies you aren't footing the underlying cost of print plates, mock-ups, test runs, etc and there aren't enough people willing to pay to offset the cost of printing them.

In any business decision a company makes, there will be detractors, especially in a business largely attached to people resistant to any change about anything. People complain about 3-piece necks, the ES2, V-class bracing, urban-sourced woods, on and on. Y'all clearly don't remember what Taylor is about, which is constantly moving forward. They've always innovated and changed ahead of other brands, which is why we still have ebony fretboards, koa, mahogany, and other things. You have no idea what it really takes to make guitars. I sat at a table and listened to Bob Taylor talk about the political side of wood with CITES and all the things they have to do to keep track of everything and try to educate politicians around the world on wood so they don't ban all of a genus like they did with Indian rosewood a few years ago. Know why that got undone? Taylor. Between growing, harvesting, processing, shipping, and building there are literally thousands of people in steps in building guitars and it's daunting the more I learn. If you want to throw in the towel because they didn't consult you individually before cancelling print, that's fine dude. But you have no idea where that money they're saving goes. It's not corporate greed, it's keeping the company healthy so it survives.

"Gabriel has a vested interest (his job) in putting together a digital version no matter what. He has no interest or inclination to continue the printed version. To that end, he will do anything in his power to sink that ship. He is not only creating a new product, he is also founding his own fiefdom with his personal serfs. That's how corporate ladder stuff works." - this is just ridiculous mate. I don't have a "vested interest" in anything. There is no corporate ladder, I own my own company and don't work at Taylor. They're a client of my company, but so are other larger brands. I'm also just a big guitar nerd and longtime player who also spent nearly 20 years as a dealer and tech before I went into marketing full time. It has no affect on me at all if they stop printing W&S - they're gonna be my client either way, though I'm sure it does free up budget to do other things.

As I said, I was just in the PNW with Bob and others. These guys are putting all their time and resources into figuring out how to grow better wood in the future, grow it ethically, harvest it ethically, so in the next 25, 50, 100 years there will even be guitar wood. We're closer than you think to that being a problem and they won't be alive to see the results of what they're doing. They'll never know if it worked, but they're putting their money where their mouth is and trying and no one else in the entire industry is doing that. I'm proud to be a small part of telling the story through video.

In marketing, needs change. When I worked in a guitar shop they were spending $1500 a month on print Yellow Pages phone book advertising, which was insane. I convinced the owner to kill that by asking him a question and watching him Google it from his phone. I then built the store a new website and invested in SEO instead. Times change and even the big retailers no longer send huge print catalogs like they used to. I used to get weekly stuff from Sweetwater, Musician's Friend, etc but they stopped. I haven't stopped shopping.

As far as the environmental impact of digital content, it's far less than cutting down all the trees to make paper, which is affecting the availability of wood to make guitars with. I just got back from the Pacific Northwest and there's not an infinite supply of massive trees. Most of them are now gone and it's largely for lumber and paper. Toilet paper, paper towels, notebooks, magazines. So yeah you cling to print all you want, but remember that tree could have been a guitar instead.

Edward

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2023, 12:29:27 PM »
Hey Gabriel,

I get what you're saying about "needs changing" and all.  You have your perspective, and that's always fine.  But do not conflate the use of paper with 
 deforestation, or whatever other environmental issues.  This is factually wrong.  And maybe you didn't know that, and that's why I'm pointing it out here.  Trees used for paper are farmed, not unlike the innumerable other things we consume: salmon, chickens, beef, and yes, trees for industrial and consumer use.  No one is ravaging the pacific NW for paper trees, nor are any fewer guitars being made because of paper.  Fast-growth trees, along with mills producing waste wood and sawdust are where paper comes from expressly for consumer use.  No owls are displaced or redwoods chopped down for my magazine.  And most certainly, technologies are constantly at work to stretch this use, if not replace it altogether, as is witnessed by the myriad synthetics commonplace today.  And now that latter point is under criticism by the "environmental crowd," but that is a whole other conversation altogether.

So your perspective on digital format is yours --and many others these days, to be sure-- which makes plenty of sense in many arenas; this is undeniable.  Others' perspectives can be just as valid, all without muddying the waters with environmental claims.  So let's keep that clear is my simple point here.  :)

Edward

Gabrielobrien

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Re: So long Wood & Steel
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2023, 03:49:50 PM »
Actually Edward, trees from the PNW have been used for everything. Paper towels, toilet paper, building materials. Though some of it is farmed now that historically hasn't been at all true and the trees that are being harvested now aren't 300+ year-old trees because they're largely gone. The entire North American guitar industry only takes about 100 trees a year for tops. The rest is all for other industries - including paper. 85% of wood used in paper is softwood coniferous trees. Sitka, for instance, has been used a lot because they grow really large. Large trees are cut first and those are the ones you'd want for guitars. They are not farmed, they're from managed forests or plantation forests. Sitka for guitar tops also comes from managed forests in in the last 10 years there's been a dramatic drop in the size of trees available that are also usable for guitars. Yes companies are creating plantations and trying to work with governmental agencies but the damage has been done for quite a while. That's now that the industries have wised up under pressure, but the damage has largely been done. So no it's not "factually wrong." Almost half the wood fiber used for paper still comes from virgin forests.
A third of the wood we use still comes from wild forests too. There are other large drivers of deforestation, especially in places like Hawaii and outside the continental US where they just clearcut tons of land to create grazing room for cattle. Lots of wood is used in construction, furniture, and all kinds of other things. I'm not saying it all goes to paper, just that it's a really expensive resource to be using when something can exist digitally and be arguably better off for it.
No one said others' perspectives aren't valid. I'm saying that print is going away because it doesn't make sense anymore.