Cedar/Hog vs All Hog Help!

[krugjr]

lot of talk here lately about the cedar/hog combination (see what ya started, TaylorGirl?) I have two dreads, 810 and 520 FE, the 520 being the only "warmer and woody" guitar I have, and I'm the "rhythm player only" guy... most of my collection is spruce topped with hog and rosewood,  my basic question to those who have owned or played cedar... would there be that much of a difference between my 520 and a GS5? enough to let the 520 go in order to add the GS5? or would it be better just to change up strings and picks once in a while on the 520 and call it good? would that come close to the sound and playability of the the GS5? It's not like you can answer what I should keep or buy (even though I ask you guys and gals that a lot) but mostly I'm wondering if the cedar/hog in the GS instead of the GA would open up a little more of that "strumming" of mine, or if cedar is cedar (lower volume, lower ceiling, good for mostly finger picking, etc) no matter the size and shape.....so don't consider it a rhythm guitar..... hope that makes sense!

[TaylorGirl]

lot of talk here lately about the cedar/hog combination (see what ya started, TaylorGirl?)

who me?

[Earl]

Each piece of wood - therefore each guitar - is a unique individual.  There is even some variance between different slices of the same log.  Taylor does a very good job of producing consistent builds, with slightly different top thicknesses for each model.  But in a production environment they cannot customize the bracing or top thickness for individual pieces of top wood.  There is no substitute for trying the models in question.  You can play anything on any guitar, but some combinations of wood and body size will be more suited to a particular purpose.  We can describe and suggest with imperfect language describing tone, but only your ears can decide what is right for you.

Having said that, the cedar top will likely be more flexible and easier to drive.  That is good for fingerpicking, but quite possible to overdrive when strumming vigorously.  Cedar will generally give a warmer and more rounded "sweeter" sound compared to mahogany, which would I characterize as tending toward dry and punchy (in addition to your warm and woody description).  The GS body shape will also give a slightly different tonal character than your current dreadnoughts.  Prudence says to hang onto what you have until you get the chance to demo the potential other guitar, and see if it speaks to you.  A bird in the hand......

[krugjr]

thanks, Earl.....well put and good advice!

[Jersey tuning]

I like roasting hog on cedar chips.

Oh, guitars?   Somehow a cedar top on a larger bodied guitar seems counter-intuitive -- why limit the headroom when you are trying to achieve greater volume with a larger body?  Are you using PB or 80-20 strings? If the latter, try the former.

[krugjr]

thanks for your input, Jersey.....and that really was my question, does it limit the headroom that much.....most say it does, especially when you strum aggressively.....I did 80/20s at first, couple of sets... those, combined with the CV bracing in the FEs give it plenty of highs.....the PB Nanos are waiting in the wings while I have a little fun with my first set of Martin Tony Rice Signatures, nickel based Monels, 13-56.....supposed to mellow quickly to a warm, woody sound on a hog guitar...been a week and they're still pretty bright, but the clarity and balance are real nice....wanted to try those and some Pearse, but local store only carries the Monels.....only strings I had ever had on my Taylors have been Elixers.....next I'll throw on the PBs and see.....fine line for me between the 80/20s and the PBs, maybe because I strum and don't finger pick.....then I'll try a set of Pearse PBs, and by then, perhaps my curiosity with the cedar/hog world will have faded into the background!

[Jersey tuning]

JP P'S have been my go-to strings. PB strings in general should give you added warmth.

Ya want a warmer sounding top with good headroom? Sinker redwood!

[krugjr]

Jersey....."Sinker Redwood".........STOP IT ALREADY!     don't tempt me!   you did read my thoughts (and my words) exactly.....I have been looking for "the headroom" and "the warmth" all in one, as compared to my dreads.....that's why I bought the 2013 818e FE, and while the headroom and warmth are there, the balance and clarity of my dreads just wasn't there for me.....which Pearse exactly would you recommend for a dread or GS? seemed like so many choices when I checked on line.....

[guitarsrsoawesome]

Jersey....."Sinker Redwood".........STOP IT ALREADY!     don't tempt me!   you did read my thoughts (and my words) exactly.....I have been looking for "the headroom" and "the warmth" all in one, as compared to my dreads.....that's why I bought the 2013 818e FE, and while the headroom and warmth are there, the balance and clarity of my dreads just wasn't there for me.....which Pearse exactly would you recommend for a dread or GS? seemed like so many choices when I checked on line.....

You might also consider Englemann Spruce, which I find to be warmer than sitka...

I've also had an all hog (Martin 000-15sm) and have the hog/cedar 514ce now.  I went to both of them from a GS8 (IR/Sitka), which I loved, but something happened to me along the way where sitka became too bright and rosewood's overtones became too much.  I really enjoy the clarity of mahogany, but I wanted bass as well.  The Martin had lots of bass for its size because it was a 12 fret and they elongate the upper bout from the soundhole which added loads of bass tonality.  I actually played 11's (80/20's) on it because it was almost too dark and muddy, which made it really easy to play while getting the sparkle and bass I wanted.

But then I came across the hog/cedar 514 and this one, I don't know, it seems special, was louder and more robust bass wise, by far, than my GS8.  I mean, I compared them side to side with two other people in the room, and couldn't believe it.   I then realized that I was a cedar guy, and since I finger pick 50-75% of the time, it made sense.

Also, the top can be overdriven, but it's possible to strum with lots of volume using a lighter touch and you get plenty of great tone without breaking it all up.

As for a cedar top on a GS...I think I agree with the other posters...why put cedar on a guitar made to be hit hard?  I would consider what I think I remember strumming fool doing.  His 5 is a GA, but he got an Englemann top because he wanted additional warmth without strumming becoming overdriven.  If you could find a GS5 with Englemann, or BTO one yourself, that could be the answer...

[krugjr]

Awesome.....you said....

"I've also had an all hog (Martin 000-15sm) and have the hog/cedar 514ce now.  I went to both of them from a GS8 (IR/Sitka), which I loved, but something happened to me along the way where sitka became too bright and rosewood's overtones became too much.  I really enjoy the clarity of mahogany, but I wanted bass as well."

BINGO!!!!!  my thoughts exactly..... Man, I love conversations like this.....again, it's why I love UTGF.....I can't play all of these guitars but I can talk to those who have, and for those who are kind enough to continue to answer....God Bless you all!     love your "something happened to me along the way" line.....my beautiful 2013 514e FLTD (not quite the bottom or headroom and what you said about bright)  my beautiful 2012 810e Proto (almost perfect, and what you said about overtones)...sometimes they actually get in the way   .... last week I remembered what ntotoro suggested last summer....."Doug, if you want what you describe as a "bigger" version of your 514FLTD, maybe try the 516 version"...well I never found one, never tried one, until ntotoro helped me find one last week....it's now mine and I can't put it down...there's the formula, awesome, european spruce, figured mahogany, CV Adi bracing, etc....yup, something happened to me along the way too...while living with bright and midrange and overtones and bass, and while trying to decide which do I sell (514 FLTD, 520 FE, 810 Proto or the 818 FE) I find a guitar that is a little bit of all four of my favorites! Jersey and Awesome, what you suggested I find......I believe I have! Thanks, Nick!

[guitarsrsoawesome]

So glad we all could help...forums of all kinds are amazing at providing information we need to make the best choices, especially when this kind of money is at stake! HA!  I'm so glad you found one with Euro spruce...I've never played a guitar with that top and would love to try one...which reminds me of Lakewood Guitars (out of Germany), I still haven't seen one of those in person and I would also like to try a Lowden (Ireland.  They do a lot with cedar, too)!  Sort of glad I can't find either in my neck of the woods because I don't want the GAS. Oh, and saw a glossy 414ce two days ago and now those are becoming very appealing to me.  For the dough, that's an amazing value.  Enjoy your new 516!  Can't wait to see pics and hear clips

[timfitz63]

For what it's worth, my brother has one of the BR-VIII guitars:  Cedar over Claro Walnut in a GS body; so not identical, but probably similar enough to your 516.  I've played it on a couple of occasions, and while the tone combination is a bit too warm for my tastes, it seems to handle moderate strumming fine.

[TaylorGirl]

So you found the one that spoke to you?! I know the feeling. And it's a personal experience that only you can do and be happy with. We would love to see your new guitar. Can you post some pictures for us?

[krugjr]

thanks again all....try for pics on the next day off.....I've been waiting to show pics cuz I didn't know for sure which ones would be in the "final group".....well, I can show the 516 cuz it's now #1 over all for all purposes, it does everything and does them all very well.....my 810 is right there and those two should be with me for a long time.....have a great Sunday, you all........................sat by a guy in church today who said he's also a Taylor guy.....gonna call him tomorrow, talk a little church, talk a little music!

[Sprintbob]

thanks for your input, Jersey.....and that really was my question, does it limit the headroom that much.....most say it does, especially when you strum aggressively.....I did 80/20s at first, couple of sets... those, combined with the CV bracing in the FEs give it plenty of highs.....the PB Nanos are waiting in the wings while I have a little fun with my first set of Martin Tony Rice Signatures, nickel based Monels, 13-56.....supposed to mellow quickly to a warm, woody sound on a hog guitar...been a week and they're still pretty bright, but the clarity and balance are real nice....wanted to try those and some Pearse, but local store only carries the Monels.....only strings I had ever had on my Taylors have been Elixers.....next I'll throw on the PBs and see.....fine line for me between the 80/20s and the PBs, maybe because I strum and don't finger pick.....then I'll try a set of Pearse PBs, and by then, perhaps my curiosity with the cedar/hog world will have faded into the background!

I put a set of Martin Retro's (.011-.052) on my 522 12 fret about 3 weeks ago. I think my impression was the same as yours, somewhat bright at first but now they are really starting to sound sweet as advertised. Great clarity and balance, these will be a keeper for this guitar.

I'd like to try the JP nickel strings and compare them to the Martin Retro's.