Guitar Price Discussion Taboo

[dkoloff]

Pricing aside from that occassional "deal of the day" alert should be kept off the boards...as posted from some other members the price is part of the story but not all....service before and after the sale, somebody getting you in the right guitar is well worth something. And if you have a dealer 1 dollar less who does not give you those things was being directed there a good thing?

[michaelw]

....I like the idea of keeping the discussion focused on the guitar and gear...
Edward

....service before and after the sale, somebody getting you in the right guitar is well worth something. And if you have a dealer 1 dollar less who does not give you those things was being directed there a good thing?

E & D -
i agree with you wholeheartedly

i believe that after everything else is done & the deciding
factor is purely $, then an off-board PM will suffice nicely

[Gary0319]

Origionally I thought that lifting the price discussion on AGF was a good idea, but I came to have a change of mind, particularly after the Amazon, Best Buy Taylor circus around Thanksgiving.

On an aside, I visisted my local BB yesterday and the acoustic room was still bare of Taylors (and not much of anything else either).

I've always been able to get the pricing information I need with a request for PM's.

Gary 

[not darth]

Well another thing is that this and the other one are forums for discussion about guitars, not intended to be a bargain-shopper's-tool.
Not that there's anything wrong with getting a good price, but that shouldn't be a big focus.

In reality, I know that over the years I've probably overpaid at times to get what I wanted, when I wanted it, but then again, I just consider it the entry fee for getting what I want, when I want.  If you keep searching for the absolute bottom dollar you might just miss out entirely.  Plus, whether it's a guitar, a vintage revolver, a motorcycle or a camera - about a year after I buy it I no longer remember exactly what I paid, so who cares if I coulda got it for a wee bit less? 
That said, sure I'll keep an eye on guitar lists in sig lines and PM a member if I have a price question about a particular guitar, but in the open lets just stick to talking about the actual guitars.
-K

[rudals1281]

Interesting discussion here.
My assumption is that most Taylor fans know about the two top(?) guitar stores. I don't know if I should even name them but I bet most of you all know which two I am talking about. Anyhow, if we are all (or the majority) are in the know of these competitive prices, why don't we just have it out in the open so that the buyers are well informed because making a purchase.

[Edward]

Interesting discussion here.
My assumption is that most Taylor fans know about the two top(?) guitar stores. I don't know if I should even name them but I bet most of you all know which two I am talking about. Anyhow, if we are all (or the majority) are in the know of these competitive prices, why don't we just have it out in the open so that the buyers are well informed because making a purchase.

Because a price is a personal consideration between the potential buyer and seller, IMHO.  Nothing wrong with saying "hey all, got a crazy deal over at xyz, seriously low, go check it out, here's the link..." so long as the specific $$ amt is not typed.  To me, this preserves whatever personal/private conditions that transpired between the two parties remain personal/private.  And we are always free to PM one another to get the full scoop.  Say all you want to say to help others and/or celebrate a NGD on a public forum, but just not the $$ figure ...to me this simple rule helps prevent misunderstandings and/or hard feelings.   Again, just IMHO.

Edward

[cotten]

Well, let me ask this:  AGF rescinded the no-price rule a few months ago.  Have a significant number of threads broken down into price discussions?  Not from what I've seen.

Broken down? Probably not, I agree. There hasn't been any kind of meltdown since the rule changed. But on that forum there are a lot more people looking for the lowest price today than before, mainly because the prohibition. I am glad I don't have to insert $xxxx forty-eleven times a day since the rule change, but I think some people miss out on a lot of good guitar discussion because they are so very focused on nothing but the price.

I am very frugal on everything, by necessity and choice. But then I tend to play my guitars for many years, too. Spending a hundred dollars more on just the right guitar, spread over a dozen or more years of playing, doesn't amount to much. I'd rather focus on getting the right guitar for me than on trying to save a little on something similar to the one I like, and hope that I like the result.

There are definitely pros and cons on both sides of the question. I'm perfectly happy to let the person who owns the forum make the decision. 

cotten

[michaelw]

Interesting discussion here.
My assumption is that most Taylor fans know about the two top(?) guitar stores. I don't know if I should even name them but I bet most of you all know which two I am talking about. Anyhow, if we are all (or the majority) are in the know of these competitive prices, why don't we just have it out in the open so that the buyers are well informed because making a purchase.

sounds ok in theory, but (imho) the end result could be pitting one dealer against another & against all the others as well -
if i were to say dealer-x quoted me a JMDNGCSA for XXXX & someone else said dealer-y would sell the same guitar
for XXXY, where would the nickel & diming stop, if either dealer states that they will match or beat anyone elses price

btw, this for the new, yet-to-be-announced jumnaughtgrandconsymphorium model with venetiantine cutaway,
western redsinkadienglkawalhog top & flameyquiltmasterAAAAA big leaf sapovangkoacocomacwaplhogascar back & sides

imho, there are several dealers that offer great service, before, during & after the sale at very competitive pricing as well

[chubakabra]

Please don't take this post the wrong way. I mean it all respectfully, even though parts of it might come out a bit sarcastic. I also have no trouble respecting that this rule is a part of this forum. It's all good I just have a real struggle finding the logic in the arguments.

So, everybody thinks that price is at least a small factor in buying a guitar. But for some reason, most of us here seem to think that adult people should be protected against this information. Because A) They are of a type that can't be trusted to use this information wisely; as a part of many factors in choosing a guitar and a seller. B) They are of an even worse kind: The type that puts price before everything else (we can't have that here, can we?) C) We have to protect adult people from getting "hurt" if they suddenly discovered that they paid "too much" (even though we already agreed that we would have no trouble paying a bit more for the right guitar).

And in the same breath, we say, or at least imply, A, B and C above, AND that "It's no problem, we can just do it via PM".

As I said, I really don't get this ...

And we are also neglecting consequenses like A) People spending a LOT more of their hard earned money than they probably should, because the seller senses that the buyer is not very well informed. B) Making it much more difficult to give credit to sellers that have great prices and at the same time provide excellent service. Yes, of course we can say things like "I would email X - you might be surprised...", but for somebody who thinks MAP is the absolute lowest price you can get, it might not mean much... C) Deciding, on behalf of other, adult people, which information they are worthy of getting easy access to, and judging them on basis of what priorities they have when looking for a guitar.

I know all of you are good, well meaning people, and that none of you advocate such a rule in order to be mean in any way. So I'm not trying to imply that you are. But the above "summary" is how my brain interpretes the arguments, and it really puzzles me.

I know too many people, some that are really close to me, that alway gets ripped of when they buy stuff. Not all of us have the same ability to gather and interprete data in this Internet age. I guess I would just very much like to not make it any harder. If that means that I would have to tolerate some "Black Friday" posts once in a while, then so be it. I also do trust that most people realize that many factors contribute to a good shopping experience. And those who buy only on basis of price ... well, it's their choice...

What about making a pricing-FAQ of some sort? It could describe the normal range of discount to expect from MSRP, but also give some thoughs about why you might not would want to save that extra $200. It could focus on other factors that experienced guitar players find important when buying a guitar. Things like finding the "right" guitar, trying before buying, benefits of buying locally and in all fairness also mention that some online sellers have fairly good return policies. In addition, it could say something about total price, when shipping and sales tax are added.

Well, I've written a lot now, while I probably just should let it rest. I have no hope in changing anybody's opinion on this matter, and it is not a problem either. This will be a nice place anyway I just really get very puzzled when the majority seems to reason in a way that I really don't understand. So I just felt a need to express myself ... you can call it self-therapy

[Edward]

No need to feel like you have to "let it rest" ...unless you want to, that is.  All opinions welcome, and you've certainly voiced yours with clarity and respect.  It's all good, friend!

Where my simple disagreement lies is when you (or others) say something to the effect of "protecting ourselves from information" ...this sounds like censorship, or at the very least a detriment to us doing our best to get the best.  Of course information is good; who doesn't want to be an informed buyer.  But never forget there is no limitation of information available: it's all there!  Ask individuals here privately; contact dealers privately; compare everything to your heart's desire.  Even get opinions here on dealers and their experiences/satisfaction.  All of which is still available and not a single limitation to your ability to get the best guit for your dough: all possible without the mention of a specific dollar figure.  That's all I'm saying.  Discuss on, friend!!   

Edward

[roadbiker]

Personally I could care less than what anyone else pays or paid for their guitar. When I purchase anything I try to get the best deal I can get. The definition of a successful sale is when the seller and buyer are both satisifed with the transaction. When I leave the store with the guitar in hand, I feel like I have made a good deal and am happy with it. If I didn't think I was getting a good deal, then either I shold not have bought it or shame on me for going with it. If someone else in another location gets a better deal/price, then kudo's to him/her. I see no problem with posting prices. It gives the "community" an idea of what the average price is. If a dealer is selling too high above the average price and ripping us off (= gouging), then, sorry, good-bye. That's what the free market is all about. Some people pay a little more, and some pay a little less. That's just the way it is. Just after I bought my 814, I found out that Best Buy was selling them for a little less than what I paid. Well it turned out that none of the stores in my area sold Taylors anyway, so if someone in Idaho got a little better price than I did, then good for him. I was happy with the price i paid, and have no problem posting it here. Ask me if you want to know and I will be glad to tell you. The other benefit is that the Taylor people who are definitely observing/monitoring (likely annonymously) these comments can see what we are willing to pay and can ensure that they are pricing their products according to what the market will bear. Personally, my opinion is that, as great as Taylor guitars are, they are priced too high for a mass produced product that is competing with other guitars that are more hand-made (Martin and Guild for example). I realize that all of the manufacturers use automation for certain parts of production in order to be comeptitive, but I get the impression that Taylor takes it to a very high level in order to mass produce instruments that are sold on Amazon.com and through Best Buy. I think it is highly unlikely that you would see these distribution channels for other well-known, high-end guitars, and defintiely not for customs. And Taylors are priced right up there with the best of them - because we players are willing to pay the price (going back to one of my earlier comments about a successful sale).

Just my opinion...

Jim

Good topic by the way.

[michaelw]

I wonder how much of an issue this really is on a Taylor forum.

Most folks know what the best Taylor street pricing is and where to get it. That's the benchmark from which we measure other pricing and start making comparisons re availability of particular models. My local dealer matches those prices and it just doesn't seem like a big deal.

in terms of finding the best overall value (service before, during & after the sale) along with competitive pricing,
i believe that if a person found their way to an internet guitar forum, then it would not be very difficult to find a
number of dealers that people had good experiences with, as well as some places to potentially avoid, imho -
outside of that, i'm wondering how many people that are looking at purchasing a guitar, perhaps for the first time, are aware
that going into a music store is a bit different than going into other retail stores in that it is possible to negotiate on the price

also a good number of music stores sell used gear, accept trade-ins, do consignments & offer in-store financing,
which, in effect, is similar (in terms of range-of-services provided) to that of an establishment that sell vehicles

i was in a store just yesterday & i could've walked out the door with a new 814ce for less than what a GA5 MAPs for
(not including tax), but i wasn't in the market for a new guitar & had no intention of buying it to 'flip-it', so i let it pass

i feel that this is a good discussion & being able to express one's opinion is teriffic, as the sharing of information &
one's experiences are what make having a place like to this to share so enjoyable (in essence, a great community)

my personal preference would be to see a discussion about the establishments people have done business with, where
they were happy with the entire experience (the customer service, product & price ... the 'whole nine-yards'), rather
than a thread to were it was based on the price 'over-and-above' everything else (i.e. sales tax & shipping costs)

ymmv

[e8n]

I've never cared much for the pricing discussions but that is nothing compared to dealers trying to create business posting on the forum with their postings.  Its far more annoying when dealers are shilling to everyone that mentions interest in a guitar.

-Dave

[Jack Sparrow]

Personally, my opinion is that, as great as Taylor guitars are, they are priced too high for a mass produced product that is competing with other guitars that are more hand-made (Martin and Guild for example). I realize that all of the manufacturers use automation for certain parts of production in order to be comeptitive, but I get the impression that Taylor takes it to a very high level in order to mass produce instruments that are sold on Amazon.com and through Best Buy. I think it is highly unlikely that you would see these distribution channels for other well-known, high-end guitars, and defintiely not for customs. And Taylors are priced right up there with the best of them - because we players are willing to pay the price (going back to one of my earlier comments about a successful sale).

I'm not sure about Amazon.com, but it's not just Taylors that are available at Best Buy. Their acoustic section also has Martins, Takamines, Ovations, and if I remember correctly Gibsons (and others), and their electric section has Gibsons, Fenders, and so on. It's more or less the usual suspects you would expect to find at Guitar Center or Sam Ash. I had a bad experience at the acoustic department of a Best Buy so don't take this as any kind of endorsement of them, but I am not really sure why Taylor seems to often get singled out as "oh no, it's at Best Buy!" when Martin and most of the brands that compete with Taylor are there too. Though I agree with you that Taylors, while good guitars, are a little overpriced. However I'm not that bothered by the mass production aspect, because I started on electric guitars and am used to the idea of guitars being mass produced.

Anyway, I'd personally like to see pricing discussions be allowed, and feel pretty much exactly the same about it as does chubakabra (excellent post).

As for dealers commenting on other dealers' pricing, outlawing public price discussion isn't going to prevent dealers from sniping customers from each other. If they are that type of dealer, they can still do it via private message. Frankly, I would rather see that stuff out in the open so I can see which dealers are unscrupulous and make a mental note to avoid those.

[e8n]

this post has been deleted, due to content that was deemed inappropriate

There is much irony in this post.  'nuff said.

-Dave