Author Topic: R Taylors  (Read 9817 times)

oatordeal

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R Taylors
« on: July 26, 2012, 03:37:25 AM »
Based on the website, I read that only a few hundreds are made every year. Only experienced luthiers in Taylor are selected in making these fine instruments (10 years at least). But what are the major differences in terms of build and design that separates it from regular Taylors?
*Is it proper to place this thread here in the Lounge and not in the Taylor section?  ;D
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EnglishGuy

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 04:42:36 AM »
Hi oatordeal.
I'm sure you will find that R Taylor no longer manufacture, the operation having been closed around a year ago. Originally, Mr Taylor set aside his 'best' luthiers to manufacture these instruments in a company separate from Taylor and, not only were the very best tonewoods chosen, various elements of the inside of the body were of the very highest quality, too.
There are examples on YouTube and they do appear in the classified columns from time to time.
Others on here will, no doubt, be able to give you fuller details and, no doubt, the location of some of the luthiers today. Today, the Taylor BTO operation selects the best examples of the woods and, I suspect, comes very close indeed to the quality of the original R Taylors.
Over to the experts....

jjrpilot-admin

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 10:13:20 AM »
I believe the R Taylor department will opened again later this year...I can't remember if I had heard that right...
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oatordeal

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 10:40:02 AM »
that's great news josh! now my chance to own one!  ;D i don't even have funds for my first taylor yet hahaha!
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Nims

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jalbert

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 10:59:47 AM »
the operation having been closed around a year ago

The way I've heard it explained is more like they "paused" it. To my knowledge all of the folks are still working for Taylor, so ramping back up again (when and should they choose) wouldn't be quite as difficult as getting started in the first place.
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michaelw

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 11:35:18 AM »
among other things. RTs had different bracing patterns, solid lining (rather than segmented kerfing)
side braces, extremely detailed pinstriped purfling with mitered corners & some had 1 piece necks

I believe the R Taylor department will opened again later this year...I can't remember if I had heard that right...
there's a chance ! ;)
...
Re: RT
- we have future plans for RT, maybe as early as Fall of this year
we'll scoot this over to the acoustic guitar aisle :)
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cigarfan

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 12:50:07 PM »
I think many of us are hoping for a chance at an RT! But given the success of BTOs, I'm thinking from a business perspective it may be longer than we think before RT are back in production. Just my opinion!
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ewalling

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 02:13:38 PM »
I never really liked the idea. The company was already producing instruments that many owners considered, if not the ultimate in high-end guitar-making, at least top-quality stuff on a par with the best maufacturers and even many boutique instruments. The RTaylor thing seemed to suggest that a mainstream Taylor was a second-class citizen even within its own camp, and I think that was the wrong message to send. That's not to say RTaylors are not excellent guitars; however, they are not what has made the company successful, and their presence seems to chip away at the reputation for top quality that such guitars as the x14 and GC series have established.

jjrpilot-admin

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 02:41:40 PM »
I never really liked the idea. The company was already producing instruments that many owners considered, if not the ultimate in high-end guitar-making, at least top-quality stuff on a par with the best maufacturers and even many boutique instruments. The RTaylor thing seemed to suggest that a mainstream Taylor was a second-class citizen even within its own camp, and I think that was the wrong message to send. That's not to say RTaylors are not excellent guitars; however, they are not what has made the company successful, and their presence seems to chip away at the reputation for top quality that such guitars as the x14 and GC series have established.

Actually...it was never meant to make "normal" Taylors feel like 2nd class...but rather the opposite.  All Taylor fans should be extremely thankful for the "R Taylor" branch.  I might be wrong...but the R Taylor branch tends to be the "Skunkworks" of Taylor Guitars.  The GS body style was born out of the R Taylor branch along with the highly popular "CV" bracing (from what I understand).

A ton of goodies made their way from the R Taylor line over to the "normal" line...I can't wait to see what they come up with next!
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Steve

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 02:46:08 PM »
...and their presence seems to chip away at the reputation for top quality that such guitars as the x14 and GC series have established.

As someone who sold Taylors for a long time, and R. Taylors for a short time, I can't see where that comment comes from.

I didn't notice that at all, nor did any of my dealers who sold both Taylor and R. Taylor...
No one has ever been on their death-bed wishing they'd been more practical...

Edward

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2012, 02:36:02 AM »
...Only experienced luthiers in Taylor are selected in making these fine instruments (10 years at least). But what are the major differences in terms of build and design that separates it from regular Taylors? ....

Each one of the RTaylor team (five, IIRC), were completely adept at fully building a fine guitar on his own, yet within the RT team functioned as the "specialist" of one aspect of the build.   So you had one guy who was the killer inlayer, another who shaved the tops just so, and so on ...all with the hope to allow the best to do what they do best. 

One of primary differences in build is the solid lining.  Production Taylors have a "kerfed" liner whereas RTs are solid (look at the current Builder's Reserve guitars: solid lining ...gee, guess where that idea came from?  ;) ).  The solid lining allows a stronger structure which then allows them to build it lighter for better resonance and "livlier" tone, yet maintaining all the strength and rigidity a guitar needs to last.  The analogy is like that of a race car where strength and paring down weight must go hand in hand if you are going to end up with a final product that truly performs.

And in engineering (as layman hack but die-hard gear head bleeding oil/gas since a wee little lad, and still involved in amature racing to this day), reducing weight in one area allows a reduction of weight in another.  All of which for the express intent of increasing performance, of course.  Follow this to the next logical step and weight comes down across the board, strength is retained if not enhanced, and the window potential for increased performance opens wider.   So as opposed to production-line  Taylors, tops are thinned, braces shaved, each aspect that affects tone is labored over ...not unlike adjusting the spark timing a degree here or there to gain even the most modest single increase in performance because all told, each individual enhancement cumulates into a winning machine.

OK, all that sounds like ad copy, I know.  But I'm no kool-aid drinker, and I have had my share in the past of buying into the snake oil, only to be disappointed when the goods failed to meet the bar the marketing verbiage promised.  Which is to say I grew up, grew objective, and learned something about discernment.  In sum, my cheesy way of saying I love R-Taylors over Taylors that I love.  The latter are IMHO the best production-made guitars out there ...choose whatever tone you prefer, but in terms of build, performance, technical advancement, and overall quality, Taylor builds production guitars like none other I have seen; while the former are truly luthier built guitars built with individual craftsman's time and attention paid to every build detail that the highly-touted boutique builders instill in their fine products ...yet all with the backing of the mother ship.

So the R-Taylor is no "gussied-up" Taylor.  It is different from its production counterpart from its very conception.  RTs really do sound different.  They really do resonate/vibrate more against your body.  They are physically lighter yet purportedly stronger (I ain't hacking away at mine to test this one ;) ).  And every aesthetic detail is poured over, and their time spent is in clear evidence everywhere you look.

Only the individual can decide if the cost difference is justified: that's not my intention.  I'm just responding to the OP, and all IMHO of course.  I can only hope that RT will return to work its wonders, but only for personal bragging rights and satisfaction as I can never afford to buy one new.  But even if they never come back to the marketplace, I will continue to rest in the satisfaction that the RTs I own are the best guitars I have ever had the pleasure to play and own.  None of which diminishes Taylors one iota as much as it declares RT in a class among some of the stellar luthier-built guitars out there.

Edward

« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 02:43:28 AM by Edward »

ewalling

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 10:29:48 AM »
Actually...it was never meant to make "normal" Taylors feel like 2nd class...but rather the opposite.  All Taylor fans should be extremely thankful for the "R Taylor" branch.

Well, no, I'm sure they weren't intended to have that effect, but can they actually avoid it? Michael has said they can and that he's never heard anyone suggest that, which means that this perception is a personal one that does not affect (many) other members of the buying public. I also think Edward's post is well-made and very instructive. It still seems to me, though, that in some degree Taylor was the champion of high-quality mass-produced guitars, and their success seemed to challenge the old order of the master craftsman toiling away by candlelight surrounded by a huge array of grubby and strange-looking tools. The RTaylor line seems, however faintly, to suggest that Taylor also believes that if we want a really top-notch instrument, we should go with the master craftsman, but, if we lack funds, conviction or an understanding spouse, then we'd better settle for an 814. Before RTaylor, there was no settling for. The 814 was the top-notch instrument, and when (if) we bought one, we had the best that Taylor could produce. In the new order, the RTaylor now seemed to represent Taylor's passion, while the 814 represented its bottom line.

No offence intended here. RTaylors are clearly world-class instruments, and everyone I've ever heard talk about them sings their praises. This is all about perception, and it looks as though the perception I'm describing is very limited.

Giraku

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2012, 11:52:50 AM »
There are 2 different types of consumers; one prefers boutique kind of handmade guitars (or amplifier) and another just goes to big production models. In case with RT and Taylor, we get quality guitars either way. Personally, I played some RTs, some are really good but some are not so. If we can see the guitar quality as a spectrum, probably RT would have higher middle point than Taylor but there would be a substantial overlap.
From the marketing perspective, they provide more options to customers. In order to avoid any misperception or confusion, maybe they should have a completely different brand names like "Toyota" and "Lexus". But to me, R.Taylor sounds great, and I see no problem in co-existing with Taylor brand.
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Edward

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2012, 08:32:44 PM »
Quote
...No offence intended here. RTaylors are clearly world-class instruments, and everyone I've ever heard talk about them sings their praises. This is all about perception, and it looks as though the perception I'm describing is very limited.

Well "perception" truly is from what angle one sees things.  So from where you sit, the conclusions you draw simply make sense.  No argument there, or any "argument" really since we're all just tossin out opinions here, to be sure!  :)

I understand how you can perceive the Taylor brand as diminished by the RTs, but I don't think that ever really came to pass ...at least in public perception that I could ever tell (ha, for what that's worth :) ).  And here's why: The RTs were never really pushed in the market taht I ever witnessed.  FWIW and IME, over the 5-6 years RT had been in existence, I personally saw very few ads anywhere, and never saw an actual RT on a wall, ever.  Sure, I "heard" someone had one somewhere, but never saw one.  Moreover, the few ads I did see seemed to cater (at least to my memory) to that small niche of "boutique-built" guitars.

So in the big picture, I think precious few folks (in marketing terms, of course) even knew RT even existed.  And for the scant few who did learn who they were, once they took the time to price one they'd immediately know this was no factory Taylor! ...and thereby realizing there is no "first tier" here relegating all the "Taylor" branded guits as "second tier."  Take it all in sum: high price, relative rarity, scarce ad copy, and different badge vs. markedly lower retail price, ubiquitous presence in stores and online, and the familiar "Taylor" badge and headstock.  Looking at it this way, you can then see how RT's sights really were at the a small, specialized clientelle who clearly pay for the time and attention for a guitar that is truly built for them.  At that time (again, relying on my aging memory here), that meant guitars like Collings, Bourgeous, and the like who "got big enough" to make it into magazine ad copy, but still advertised their "I'm an individual luthier" flavor to potential customers who wanted something more than a suit off the rack. 

BTW, thanks for the kind words and certainly no offense whatsoever taken!   We're all just trading thoughts here, anywho, so FWIW, I could be completely wrong in my perception.  Just tossing it our for your consideration :)

Edward




michaelw

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Re: R Taylors
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2012, 07:23:39 PM »
R Taylor started with the Style 1, which most closely resembles the GS
(they are not identical body shapes) with 2 bracing patterns & 2 top
geometries being offered - the 12 string option was 'officially' made
available on the Style 1 model, although i've seen a pic of a jumbo 12

the Style 2 was next (similar to a GC/OM), short scale 14-fret only
& then the Style 3 (dreadnought body, but not another 'DN') -
the RTS2 & 3 offered only one bracing pattern & top geometry option &
the slotted headstock was only available on the Style 2

there were numerous 'no upcharge' options, 4 different
neck carves  (2 'V' profiles) & a 1 13/16" nut width

RT did not offer a GA-Style body shape (would that have been Style 4 ?) &
i've only seen a pic of a 'one-off' jumbo (Style 5 ?) & i don't believe there
were parlors, baritones, 8 or 9 string or 13 fret models (prototypes - no pics)

there were no 'standard' models (MC, MS, RC, RS) or 'standard' appointments

i believe that RTs were either ordered to spec by customer through a dealer
or the dealer ordered them to their specifications, for the most part -
there may have been some 'pre-builds', but, unlike Taylor, i don't remember
seeing an officially announced R Taylor 'Road Show' or 'Find Your Fit' schedule,
although there were likely some events that were set-up for the dealers by RT

my take on it is RT was/is an 'upper-echelon' department -
many automobile manufacturers have done this in the past &
i don't feel that the intention was to lessen or 'make light of'
the guitars that make up the Taylor line, not even remotely

another way to look at it, the escalade series could
be perceived as a pretty tahoe/suburban/avalanche

perhaps the RTs were meant to be either an addition to one's 'arsenal', or to
attract some attention from those that might feel a Taylor is too 'main-stream' ???

i don't know ...
there have been discussions brought up about 100/200 series models, GS Minis, 300/400 series &
the vibe that comes across to me a good bit is that for some reason the solid top & satin finish with
gloss top guitars seem to be 'less' - the 500 series/up gloss bodies seem to be the 'Standard' series

i don't agree with that, as i've played/own(ed) a good number of them & to me they
sound/play/feel/look 'like a Taylor' (a gloss body doesn't automatically mean 'better', imho)

ymmv
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:56:24 PM by michaelw »
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