Author Topic: Re: Brass bridge pins. 2nd sample Q1 was brass  (Read 5830 times)

jpmist

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Re: Brass bridge pins. 2nd sample Q1 was brass
« on: May 09, 2012, 07:27:33 PM »
Have been disappointed with the tone of my Taylor 12 fret lately, sounds a little muted, lacking the sparkle Taylors are known for. Of course it might be suffering in comparison to my Larrivee OO sized 12 fret which has tons of brightness.

Read up on brass bridge pins and learned that it can brighten up a guitar's tone but one negative remark was that the extra weight of the brass pins might load the top too much and dampen it, smothering the tone so to speak. Anyway, I got a set to try out.

So, to keep this somewhat scientific, I recorded a little fingerstyle ditty I've been working on, installed the brass pins, then recorded the exact same melody again with the exact same recording settings.

While I think I can hear a difference, I'm certainly biased. I've lost a fair amount of treble in both ears so I'd appreciate some objective ears on. . .

a) Is there a difference between the two and how would you characterize it?

b) Any loss of resonance or tone due to the pins being heavier?

Trying not to prejudice you guys,  I promise I'll let you all know in a couple of days which sample is brass.


Sample J7:   http://db.tt/r7HnnWOl

Sample Q1:   http://db.tt/fARnsLOY

Many many thanks!

<re-edit> Sample Q1 was the one with the brass pins
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 10:37:21 AM by jpmist »
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Re: Brass bridge pins, some second opinions please?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 08:19:06 PM »
Hi Jpmist! Love the experiment!

Now granted I'm using my iPhone to listen...it seems to me that the 1st sample was brighter.

I'd say the first sample utilized the brass pins.

I reserve the right to change my opinion once I get home and use real speakers. ;)
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mrklab

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Re: Brass bridge pins, some second opinions please?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »
Hi,
Liked the 2nd sample (Q1) much better. Nicer "acoustic" sound. I thought the first sample was harsh  sounding...compared to the mellower tone of the 2nd sample.
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cigarfan

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Re: Brass bridge pins, some second opinions please?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 09:46:25 PM »
Nicely done! Like your song.

Sample J7 had a brassy edge (no pun intended) with pronounced highs.

Sample Q1 seemed more balanced with more oomph on the bass side than the other sample.

Never heard a guitar using brass pins so I have no idea what effect they may have. My "guess" would be J7 used the brass pins. But I have to say for acoustic fingerstyle, I liked the second (Q1) much better.
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jpmist

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Re: Brass bridge pins, some second opinions please?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 12:42:51 AM »

Am very grateful for all the replies, it's really helping me figure out what I'm hearing. Will check back with which one was the brass pins this time tomorrow.

For what it's worth the stock bridge pins are the original Taylor ebony. The Taylor 12 is the rosewood/spruce version, it currently has lite 80/20 coated strings, the original tusk saddle and a custom bone nut.
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Saxacat

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Re: Brass bridge pins, some second opinions please?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 01:43:48 AM »
Well both sounded good to me.

After listening a few times and swapping back and forth, the strumming sounds a tad brighter on J7.

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jpmist

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Re: Brass bridge pins. 2nd sample Q1 was brass
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 10:28:39 PM »
Once again, thanks for the replies, this has been really interesting. I posted the same question and samples on two other forums, Larrivee's, and the AGF and got 23 responses.

J7, the first sample, was most frequently described as "brighter", with a few "more sparkle" and "has presence" thrown in. Some weighed in with "tinny" and "brassy". If you guessed this sample had the brass pins you were in good company.

Q1, the second got described as "muddy" a few times, as well as "muted" and with "less resonance", though others described it as "mellower". Only 3 specifically stated this was the one with the brass pins.

The reply I found most interesting was from "wrench68" on the AGF forum who weighted in with: "It looks like your top frequency dropped from 196 Hz to 183 Hz, and the volume dropped a few db, among other things, in the second sample. These are all characteristics of adding mass to the top. I'd say the brass pins are in the second sample, and in my opinion, they did not improve the sound of your guitar."

My initial impression when I played the guitar after placing the brass pins was that it sounded brighter, but I think this clearly shows that is what I wanted to hear, having gone thru the trouble of changing out the pegs. I've since played the two tracks quite a few times, alternating a section at a time, and with the feedback I've gotten I agree with how you guys are describing how they sound, so perhaps my hearing doesn't suck as much as I feared.

I think there is a lot of merit to the idea that the extra weight of the brass pins over the wood ones really does dampen the soundboard, making the tone muddy, less resonant and muted. I weighed the ebony pins at .2 oz, a set of bone pins at .25 oz and the brass pins at 5 times (!) the weight of the ebony at 1 oz. That some of you mentioned trying brass and liking it, I think suggests another consideration might be the size of the guitar and style of bracing. My cutaway grand concert is set up for light gauge strings and has a much smaller soundboard surface area than a dreadnaught, so extra weight would dampen the dread less. The brass pins could work for a larger guitar set up for mediums and as someone suggested one could try a partial set, say 2 on the unwound strings.

I think it's safe to say that the popular notion that brass pins can brighten up your tone has been disproved somewhat, at least for smaller finger-style guitars. They perhaps do some, but they take away perhaps more than that's worth.

The biggest take-away from this experiment for me was that the Taylor 12 sounds pretty good as is, I should leave well enough alone. Also I appreciate the kind remarks on my playing.

Thanks again everyone, I appreciate the help and hope you found the results as interesting as I did.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:27:27 AM by michaelw »
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michaelw

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Re: Brass bridge pins. 2nd sample Q1 was brass
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 11:03:22 AM »
if you're looking for a tad bit more 'sparkle', i've used Tusq bridge pins &
i'm pretty happy with them (on englemann maple & redwood ziricote GA models)

i've tried a few different bridge pins in the past (brass, faux 'tortoise' & bone) & to me
brass darkened the tone noticeably, even on larger, hardwood (mahogany) top guitars -
high mass in the bridge area is usually  not desirable on an acoustic & some builders
make it a point to tout lower mass (i.e. macassar ebony bridges & titanium bridge pins)
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Cindy

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Re: Brass bridge pins. 2nd sample Q1 was brass
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »
I thought the first one had a better sound than the second which sounded slightly more muted. That may have been due to the extra weight of the brass pins. Bridge pins don't alter the tone nearly as much as a saddle change. Have you considered swapping out your saddle for some other type of material? Bob Colosi is highly recommended by people who have used his products.

I have 3 audio files from 220volt (a member over on the AGF). He's allowed me to share them...the files compare 3 different saddle materials demoed in a 5xx series guitar: Bone, Tusq, and Ivory. I will try to get them uploaded to Sound Cloud so people can hear the differences.

Until I get them uploaded to Sound Cloud, the files can be downloaded from my MediaFire account. He did 2 different audio tests so there are a total of 6 audio files. http://www.mediafire.com/?j3ueem0259xlv
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 11:20:46 AM by Cindy »
Cindy

jpmist

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Re: Brass bridge pins. 2nd sample Q1 was brass
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »
I thought the first one had a better sound than the second which sounded slightly more muted. That may have been due to the extra weight of the brass pins. Bridge pins don't alter the tone nearly as much as a saddle change.

Muted came up a lot for the brass pins, and I agree that it's somehow lacking in resonance or maybe the midtone range. I do hear some extra brightness but after A-B-ing over and over they both started sounding exactly the same.

Have you considered swapping out your saddle for some other type of material? Bob Colosi is highly recommended by people who have used his products.

I have a bone saddle I've been meaning to shape up and install, so that's next on the list of things to try.

I have 3 audio files from 220volt (a member over on the AGF). He's allowed me to share them...the files compare 3 different saddle materials demoed in a 5xx series guitar: Bone, Tusq, and Ivory. I will try to get them uploaded to Sound Cloud so people can hear the differences.

Until I get them uploaded to Sound Cloud, the files can be downloaded from my MediaFire account. He did 2 different audio tests so there are a total of 6 audio files. http://www.mediafire.com/?j3ueem0259xlv


That's very kind of you to share that, when I get home to my desktop with some good headphones I'll definitely check them out! I'm guessing the Tusq (which I have now) is the least dense material and will sound warmer, dunno which of bone or ivory will be crisper but it'll be interesting to hear.

Meanwhile I have a different set of strings to try out on it and the bone saddle, so I'm sure I'll get it tweaked eventually. I think some of my issue boils down to wanting the Taylor to have the same tone as my Larrivee OO-05, but when you think of it, what's the point of having two guitars that sound the same?

I have observed that one of the downsides to the luxury of having two nice guitars is that one of them usually sits in the doghouse for a few weeks or so until I get tired of the one I'm playing, then I pick it back up while the other one sulks in the case - rise, repeat <grin>

It's a nice problem to have. . .
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