Humidity Control, forgive me if covered already...

[flyingace71]

I did a few searches and did not find a direct answer.

I have always kept my music room, in the winter, humidified to 45-50% and kept at a temp around 72 degrees, but spring and summer are harder for me to control.

Right now my music room is at 61% humidity and 75 degrees.

In the past my instruments have dealt with it pretty well, but now that I have a prized Taylor in my possession, I want to do right by it and get the humidity controlled better to keep the room closer to 47%RH.

Is my only option, if I want to keep my taylor out of it's case all the time, to buy a room dehumidifier?
Is keeping it in the case a better option? Should I invest in the Humidipak system taylor sells?

I have a good Hygrometer in the room that seems to be pretty accurate.

Thanks!

[DennisG]

If I had the option to add a room dehumidifier that would allow me to keep my guitar out of the case, I'd go for that.  Nothing wrong with HumidPaks, but having my guitars out of their cases and accessible all the time would be my preference.

[Edward]

I wouldn't stress about the humidity levels so long as you're in a "reasonable" range.  And yes, while 61% RH is on the high side, the worst that happens at that level is guitar's tuning goes off a bit, may sound a bit different, but nothing is going to go wrong or "bad" with your Taylor or any guitar.  It is prolonged dryness that kills these wooden things, and that's weeks at below, say, mid 30%-ish RH ...if even lower humidity, then several days to a couple of weeks can significantly sink the top, even cause a split.  But keep out of the extremes, and these reasonable seasonal fluctuations don't kill guitars.

Does your RH climb significantly about 60%?   If so and for a prolonged period, then yes, I'd look into a room  dehumidifier, especially if you prefer your guitars out where you can play em (which is exactly where I like mine, as well!  ).  But if low 60s is your upper end and the RH decreases throughout the day, then think of the average moisture your guitar is exposed to ...it's not that bad, especially if it's not over the ensuing months.   Keep tabs on your hygrometer over the next few days, play the guits and see how they respond, and make your determination from there.

FWIW, my room with guits goes through fluctuatons from high 30s to maybe occasional 62% or so, and this over a decade that I can remember, all with zero ill effects.   Since where I am never really climbs above this 60-ish threshhold, I don't worry about dehumidifying, though I do kick in the humidifier when the room drops to 40% or so.  And like I said, this is easily over a decade (actually longer, but I think that was maybe about the time I started keeping tabs with a real hygrometer).   Hope that gives you a bit to de-stress you

Edward

[flyingace71]

Yes, thanks Edward! That helps a lot!

[mgap]

It is a struggle to keep my RH in the mid 40s I need to put about 3 gallons of water into the air daily during the winter.   I'll put in at least one gallon a day in the Summer.

[Steve]

A couple things:

Too much humidity can damage your guitar as much as too little humidity. If it didn't, there wouldn't be a range given for it. They would simply say "make sure the humidity is at least "X" amount.

61% humidity is too high. It's not on the "high side". That's like saying that 33% is on the "low side". We're also getting into the warmer months. High humidity combined with high temperatures can cause glue joints to fail. With prolonged exposure, the glue under the bridge will weaken, allowing the bridge to pull off. It can also  cause finish cracks and bindings to come off.

Just like when humidity is too low...

[dangrunloh]

I've always kept my Taylor 414ce in the case at 45-50% but have recently discovered two important things.  First it depends on the temperature.  There was a recent post  on AGF about the importance of temperature when considering the ideal target RH%.  At low temperatures (64  degrees in the case on the floor or in a closet like mine) the air holds less moisture than expected.

I've always kept mine below 52% even to the point of using desiccant canisters in the case.  They have to be recharged every 10 days.  Two of them will only drop it about 8%-10%.

Second, and the tone of the guitar has improved significantly since I recently allowed the 414ce to go up to about 55%.  I have two hydrometers that agree so I think the numbers are correct.  The improvement in tone is especially striking in the high notes.  Less shrill, sharp, or bright.  It's now sweet, melodic, and more rounded. Now single note melodies played on the solid strings above the 5th fret sound absolutely wonderful.  I've spent months looking for strings or picks that would mellow the tone a little and all I had to do was use the Damp-it more and raise the RH from 47% to 55%.

I will keep it well below 60% but no longer believe the mythical 47% is ideal for this particular guitar.  I don't know if it's the top, the back, or the braces, but somebody in there is a lot happier.  I understand at high RH levels the tone will get muddy and the guitar will warp.  I've had the 414 at 55% for at least 3 weeks and the action hasn't raised any from my original settings so the top presumably is not swelling.  Note: it is still stored in the case where the Planet Waves hydrometer indicates about 64 degrees

[flyingace71]

For the time being I've been keeping it in the case and my case storage closet (connected to my music room) that seems to remain, unaltered by me in any way, about 45% humidity/70 degrees year round. The guitar seems to like that a lot. Shame though coz I really enjoy having a guitar out and ready to pickup and play at a moments notice.

I'll keep an eye on the humidity in my music room and as soon as it drops down a little, I'll bring her back out!

I'm thinking about getting a GS Mini to have for travel and it being laminate, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to leave it anywhere without issues.

[Edward]

Caution: verbose, maybe pedantic, and perhaps inane

Just for clarity's sake, the term "relative humidity" is the moisture content adjusted for its temperature.  As temps rise, so tood does the air's ability to hold more moisture.  So an RH of say 45% in the "cold" will have the same moisture content as an RH of 45% when it's "hot" because the hygrometer that reports "relative" humidity calculates the actual humidity and ambient temp together, and then reports the RH, the number we're concerned with.   I recall the measurements I took with a sling psychrometer (sp?) which measures actual moisture content, then logged the thermometer, then did the calulation for RH ...so glad we have cheap meters that do this now .   So the ambient temp really is not a point that is relevant to what I think was the OP's intent ...if I'm reading the OP right.

The health of a given guitar and how it adapts to the env't will clearly vary from maker to maker, but let's say for the sake of argument we're speaking of any decent-quality instrument.  Such decent guitars will have a range of RH that they are tolerant of.  Within that range of health, where it neither dries and shrinks eventually imploding on itself as evidenced by cracks, nor swells with moisture as all the faces, particularly the top, bulge like bloated sponges and likewise doesn't produce the tone we were accustomed to hearing before this, within these extremes the guitar is structurally sound.  How it actually "sounds" will vary within the range, but structurally, it's not gonna crack apart nor turn to gluey mush and fall apart on you.  Fact: guitars just don't do this when in said range; they just aren't that fragile (again, structurally).  So keep the guit in the specific RH (within the appropriate range) you prefer its tone in.  Me?  I prefer the drier side of healthy: 40 to high-40s works for me.   But just because the Taylor factory builds them at 47% doesn't mean that I'm going to make that my absolute standard.  And not because I think I know better than they do ('cause I don't, duh), but because I have to balance the reality of my climate with what my desires are for my guitars.  I want to keep them out on the wall for immediate access, but I don't want to treat them like they're in some dang ICU constantly monitoring their health.  Ahem, I have a real life to live

So that's all I'm saying.  There's "reasonable care" (which is substantiated by guitar builders not least of which includes Bob and co. who live with wood and see first-hand what happens to it under differing conditions), then there's various opinions, including my own, which ought to be taken with a multitude of grains of salt.   Again, that's all I'm sayin

BTW, food for thought: I've had two laminates in the past get dry and crack because I thought they were "tough laminates" ...wrong!  One ought not make the mistake that just because it's a laminate it is "tougher" and doesn't need to be within the proper range of humidity.  Wood is wood, as is construction materials and procedures are what they are.   Lams are more resilient to RH swings than solid guits, to be sure, but given enoguh time and an RH outside the range, and they will suffer likewise.

Edward

[dangrunloh]

Second, and the tone of the guitar has improved significantly since I recently allowed the 414ce to go up to about 55%.  I have two hydrometers that agree so I think the numbers are correct.  The improvement in tone is especially striking in the high notes.  Less shrill, sharp, or bright.  It's now sweet, melodic, and more rounded. Now single note melodies played on the solid strings above the 5th fret sound absolutely wonderful.  I've spent months looking for strings or picks that would mellow the tone a little and all I had to do was use the Damp-it more and raise the RH from 47% to 55%.

A next day follow-up.  My observation about humidity could be clouded by other factors.  Track it to excitement of improved tone in a matter of weeks and noticing RH in case was up higher than normal.  I've listened and compared recordings I made a month ago with today and yes it's hard to get exactly the same conditions and performance but, I think it still sounds better now, even with one month old strings. Not muddy or dull but fuller.

The strings Newtone Master class round core 80/20 have been played hard with a pick for about 40 hours. I would not expect them to get better at this point but they are definitely not dull.  More expressive if anything.  One of them is a newish Elixer (G) and even it sounds good. Imagine that.

I did not originally think it could be the "opening up" or warming up" of the guitar (even though I accept the theory).   It's a 2010 model that has been played only for 5 months or about 200 hours and the change seemed to occur in less than a month.  Faster than I had believed possible.

Finally I could be loosing my hearing, but my head thinks I'm hearing more.  So I can't really say for sure it's the humidity and in fact it might even get better at a lower moisture. If it is the warming up.   

[flyingace71]

well, I pulled my new GC5 out of it's case last night to play and it was buzzing like crazy. gbe strings mainly, probably because the upper strings measure at 8/64" action (lower is more like Taylor specs at 4/64")

So I'm thinking I better take it to the dealer this weekend and let their tech take a look at what's going on.

[JPHoush]

Another thing to consider is what type of wood your guitar(s) are made of.  Sitka spruce will react negatively much quicker than mahogany, koa, rosewood or sinker redwood to dry conditions.  You begin to see that "corduroy" effect much quicker in the grain of the wood than you will with some of these other woods.  That's why you can look at a spruce top guitar which is beginning to show signs of drying out and see the corduroy effect and the back and sides of the rosewood look fine.  Keep the humidity inside the zone and you will be fine.

[flyingace71]

I'm so confused now. Tonight I pulled my GC5 (cedar top, hog sides/back) out and followed some of the tips that the info sheets that came with the guitar said. When I place a ruler on the neck, the frets are taller than the bridge. It says that means it's dry.

Then I use the ruler on the back and it's bowed out, the other info sheet says that means it's swollen and too wet.

Which is is?

Also there is a strange ripply look to the upper and lower portions of the sides when you sight down at each with the light. Is this normal?

[flyingace71]

So this weekend I took the guitar to have the set up done and checked out by a taylor tech. He got it all set up to spec and it plays great, looks great...

Except this weird ripple in the sides. He looked and thought it was a trick of the light but when he put it back in the case, that's when we both saw it: The "ripple" follows the line of the case cushion. It is a really tight fit and my guess is it being NOS 2007 that it lived in the case a long time.

Problem is nobody seems to want to do anything about it!? The tech said it would "probably" go away if I left it out of the case for a year or so (really!?). The dealer said it "probably" is just part of the wood grain and that I'm being too picky (seriously?) The Taylor folks were also baffled and said it "probably" will buff out with a wheel.

Here's the deal (AND I KNOW this thread is no good without pics... I"ll take some tonight IF I'm can even manage to capture it):
The sides measured by a straightedge are flat. You can only see the "ripple" in the reflection of the light but once you spot it, you always see it. It is a consistent line all the way around and it matches up perfectly to the cushions in the case.

Although it sounds great, plays great and looks great, my fear is for the resale value, if, God forbid, I ever want to sell it.

What should I do? I'm taking it to the dealer again this Saturday to see if I can get him to take this seriously (I only spoke to him on the phone, so I'm hoping seeing is believing)
I'm also fearing that they will say I did something to it (i.e. these humidity issues I've been having).
UGH

All I wanted was to finally purchase my dream guitar

[Edward]

I would do as you say: go back to the dealer and politely but firmly insist that they address this.  Refer them back to the factory and the lifetime warranty.  Tell him that you've spoken to the factory as well, and while they offered no clear solution, the discussion has been opened and you would like it resolved, if not by him, by the factory (in which case as an authorized dealer he can handle the shipping expense.

You wanted a "dream guitar" and paid good money for it.   Given you bought a dew guitar from a Taylor dealer, I would settle for nothing less than satisfaction.  Take it from there.  If he digs his heels in, politely go your own way and take the discussion to the factory, definitely including how uncooperative your dealer (and persona's name) was in failing to help you resolve the matter.   Taylor is good (arguably the best) about supporting their customer base.  Be clear with your points,  as well as persistant and polite with your desire.

Edward