Taylor Expression System or K&K?

[Steely Glen]

Just to add to the discussion, below is a clip I stumbled upon from Billy Corgan describing his live rig.  At the 13:40 mark, he describes why he doesn't use acoustic guitars live (not anymore, at least).  When he did, he was a Taylor player and preferred the ES.  He has high praise for it.  I post this because there's a myth out there that pros who play Taylors avoid the ES (think: Dave Matthews, Doyle Dykes, etc.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_eVH5vUR8u8#t=819s

[steelerboy329]

I like the current ES in Taylor's.  They sound great to me, but I've never tried a guitar with the K&K installed.

[Buzz Hill]

Well, I am sure that the ES system is great, and no doubt it is awesome to those whose ears like it. I am a lefty and purchased my 410ce without being able to play or hear it.  I owned a 2000 model 310 ce with the fishman and it sounded it great to my ear. I have had my new taylor for almost a year now, I have gigged with it many times. I tried running it through our pa and could not get it to sound just right. I purchased a fishman loudbox, the taylor still did not sound good to my ear, our other guitar player has a mid range martin and it sounds awesome through my amp. So after serious  consideration and thouht I am going to remove the es system and install a K&K mini and a baggs pre amp. I love my 410ce unplugged, it just keeps sounding better and better. I will let you know how it works out when I get it done.

[rolleiguy54]

Heid's music in Appleton Wi recently conducted a pick up "shoot out". I helped out by bringing a BTO Taylor with the Anthem PU, a Petros with the Fishman Matrix and the Aura pedal, A Redline slope shoulder with the Matrix, and a Taylor with the ES. We added the Martin om retro, and a Yamaha with their new pre amp system.

First off we were able to get very good sounds through a pa with all the guitars and pick up systems. All the guitars recorded well. We gave an edge to the Martin with the Fishman guitars close behind. The Anthem excelled at finger style but not strumming. The Yamaha surprised us all It was very close to all the others at a third of the price.

Our conclusion was that all pick ups performed well. The Martin was everyones favorite with the Fishman system second. Taylor was right behind.

I have never understood why the ES gets bashed. It was close in all our comparisons, not necessarily the "best" but very capable.

[rolleiguy54]

I recently upgraded a GS from the 2009 es to the current es. I had a local Taylor approved tech install it.

The cost was just over two bills. It works great and I am very happy.

[Herb Hunter]

Well, I am sure that the ES system is great, and no doubt it is awesome to those whose ears like it. I am a lefty and purchased my 410ce without being able to play or hear it.  I owned a 2000 model 310 ce with the fishman and it sounded it great to my ear. I have had my new taylor for almost a year now, I have gigged with it many times. I tried running it through our pa and could not get it to sound just right. I purchased a fishman loudbox, the taylor still did not sound good to my ear, our other guitar player has a mid range martin and it sounds awesome through my amp. So after serious  consideration and thouht I am going to remove the es system and install a K&K mini and a baggs pre amp. I love my 410ce unplugged, it just keeps sounding better and better. I will let you know how it works out when I get it done.

You might consider leaving the Expression System in the guitar and just adding the K&K pickup and an external preamp. Should you ever decide to sell the guitar, it would be worth more with the ES and should you ever play in a loud band setting, you'll be glad to have the option of switching to the ES for the night.

[jjrpilot-admin]

Well, I am sure that the ES system is great, and no doubt it is awesome to those whose ears like it. I am a lefty and purchased my 410ce without being able to play or hear it.  I owned a 2000 model 310 ce with the fishman and it sounded it great to my ear. I have had my new taylor for almost a year now, I have gigged with it many times. I tried running it through our pa and could not get it to sound just right. I purchased a fishman loudbox, the taylor still did not sound good to my ear, our other guitar player has a mid range martin and it sounds awesome through my amp. So after serious  consideration and thouht I am going to remove the es system and install a K&K mini and a baggs pre amp. I love my 410ce unplugged, it just keeps sounding better and better. I will let you know how it works out when I get it done.

You might consider leaving the Expression System in the guitar and just adding the K&K pickup and an external preamp. Should you ever decide to sell the guitar, it would be worth more with the ES and should you ever play in a loud band setting, you'll be glad to have the option of switching to the ES for the night.

+1    This is great advice.

[rljohansen@frontier.com]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned evaluating the signal chain past the pickup/preamp.  i.e. cable, external preamp/EQ, amplifier, DI box, soundboard, etc..  I have used all generations of the ES and each sounds as good as the other.  Changes have been in power supply and grounding.  Alot of personal preferences state here, but they are just that, personal opinions.  Taylor has not become a market leader by making inferior products.  The other variable is the player themselves, and their level of playing expertise/techniques.

[tedtan]

^ rljohansen@frontier.com

While its true that Taylor did not become a market leader by making inferior products, its also true that they don't merely rest on past laurels, preferring instead to continually improve and innovate.

[Rob_J]

I'm so glad I came across this thread. I just acquired a used 2006 414ce and was initially NOT happy with the plugged in tones even after extensive knob tweaking. My first impressions were that the older ES in this guitar just wasn't going to work for me. The idea of bypassing the onboard ES and going with something like a K&K or other pickup was something that I was (and maybe still am) considering.

Then, I tried the guitar through a different amp set up and going through DI box and discovered tones that were far more pleasing than what I had initially experienced through another amp. Let me add that I do not own an acoustic amp, but I've always had good luck with my Martin with various electric amps as long as I route the signal through a DI box first.

At any rate, the idea of possibly trying another pickup system without removing the current older generation ES is still on the table. I've always been of the mind that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it' so I'm going to spend some time with the stock setup for awhile and see how it does for me before considering any pickup changes.

One thing I'm not fond of is this older ES using the double AA battery setup. The former owner of this guitar advised me to use the trick of wrapping a post it note around the two batteries to help keep them in line. Even then though, sometimes the batteries will shift slightly and I lose good contact. Just for the improved 9v battery compartment of the newer ES an upgrade is an appealing idea, but I'm guessing the cost of doing such an upgrade would not be justifiable for that reason alone.

So, at this point I guess I'd have to say that "the jury is still out" on whether to ditch my old ES and try an alternative.

[Edward]

.... Just for the improved 9v battery compartment of the newer ES an upgrade is an appealing idea, but I'm guessing the cost of doing such an upgrade would not be justifiable for that reason alone.

So, at this point I guess I'd have to say that "the jury is still out" on whether to ditch my old ES and try an alternative.

Just my two cents:
1. Upgrading to current-generation ES is not any more costly when one compares that systems like the K&K (and others) may/may not require a good DI that shapes tone.  Add that cost in and you're similar to an ES upgrade.

2. ES upgrade maintains the usefulness of the upper-bout ocntrols which are, IMHO, superbly placed, imminently usable in a live setting, and aesthetically unobtrusive.  A new system in lieu of the ES now means you have useless knobs poking out of your guitar.

3.  The current-gen ES sounds great live, and beyond this has numerous other attributes that make it a worthwhile system to keep.  The "best sounding" is but one consideration: "all around best" for live use is what I'm driving at and IME, in a band setting the ES is killer, bar none.

Just offering another POV.  Your guitar and your personal circumstances dictate what is best for you, of course.

Edward

[Rob_J]

So, if I were to decide to go the upgrade route, can any luthier do an ES upgrade, or does it have to be done at an authorized Taylor repair shop? The nearest one to me is about 80 miles away from me.

[Rob_J]

Actually, I've already answered my own question. I just contacted an authorized Taylor repair shop for a quote and was told that it would have to be shipped to the Taylor factory for the upgrade at an estimated cost of $300 (plus the cost of shipping back and forth and the hassel of doing so). I don't see an upgrade happening for me.

[Edward]

An authorized taylor shop means simply that he knows where to put the new sensor harness, how to relocate the dummy coil, and how to route the lower block to accomodate the 9v battery compartment.  By no means a stretch for any competant guitar tech, let alone a real luthier, but only that said luthier would likely have to contact the mother ship for specific instructions.  He'll charge you for labor on top of you purchasing the ES from Taylor's parts dept.  I've done it twice, and one of those times was an upgrade from the AA system like you.  On both occasions the grand total was less than what shipping to the factory and having them do the work would have cost me.  Hope that helps you

Edward

[Rob_J]

Thanks Edward. I was not aware that you could buy the parts. I will definitely look into that. Would you happen to have a link to where the parts could be ordered from? I didn't see a parts section on Taylor's website, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place.