Saddle replaced on a 312CE

[walter_dh]

Hello guys,

I have been away from the forum for a while, partially because we experience some changes in our line up (long story short: our female vocalist left us without any reason, and we are now starting again with a new singer). But this didn't stop my willing to play , of course.
And regarding playing and guitars, as I previously written on this board, there was something weird in my 312's sound that has always made me feel uncomfortable: zero stustain, zero low frequencies.

Some of you guys suggested me (thank you!) to drop an email to Mr. Bob Colosi and that's what I did. I bought a Taylor specific  bone saddle and yesterday night I sterted to sand it in order to adapt to my guitar.

After installing it in the bridge slot with a fresh new set of Martin strings, I could appreciate an improvement in loudness, sustain, low tone, brilliancy. It's too early to tell if the saddle is THE defnitive solution to get a better sound plugged and unplugged, but so far I am impressed. Bob is good at machining saddle and entertain business relationships with his customers.

Tonight we'll rehearse with the band -- I'll plug my Taylor straight to the PA because in the meanwhile I also sold my old Kustom Sienna amp -- and tomorrow I will have more precise and detailed impressions about this modification. Will I get a better tone and sound? Hopefully!

What really upsets me is that Taylor equips a mid range acoustic guitar like the 312CE (everyone here knows its MSRP) with a cheap and unreliable saddle. Take a look at the picture: it's so worn out. I expect a plastic/resin saddle like that on an entry level guitar, not on a Taylor. I know that the 312CE is not a high product nor a hand made instrument, but... why save a few dollars on a crucial part and make a customer unsatisfied of his tune?

Thanks for your attention. Regards

W

[Earl]

That is worn.  The saddle usually has some small slots or notches in it, to keep the strings from shifting laterally.  Looks like someone got overzealous when making these notches, almost carving it like a nut.  Either that or you have played this guitar a LOT.  Given the imprint of the string windings on the bass side of your saddle in the photo, I would guess that this has seen a lot of playing hours.

Tusq saddles that Taylor uses are supposed to be pretty good tonally.  Man-made materials are more consistent than bone, which can vary in density and porosity, therefore are variable in terms of their performance with undersaddle pickup sensors - and often acoustically too.  I don't have any Bob Colosi parts myself, but have heard wonderful things here on the UTGF.  Glad you noticed an improvement.

[walter_dh]

Hi Earl
I undertand your point.
Actually I have been playing this guitar for less than 10 months, and unfortunately I can't practice on a daily basis as I woudl like.
So it looks like that the saddle (Taylor states they use Tusq products) is not very resilient.

As far as the new bone saddle is concerned, after installing it I also replaced the strings with a new set of Rotosound strings (not Martin as written in my previous post), and they sounded more brilliant to my ears. (Actually I don't like Rotosound strings -- I still have many sets  left so I have to use them -- because they really get worn out in hours; maybe it's my acid sweat's fault but the phosphor coating quickly turns to dark brown.

Anyways, yesterday night I played with the band not more than two hours (9pm - 11 pm); as a result, this morning my Taylor sound is far from brilliant. Again, no or poor sustain, almost zero resonance, a very dark, "stopped" tone on the bass strings (E, A). Maybe , with the bone saddle the sound is slighlty better than before but generally speaking it's not the tune I expect nor like.

I recorded a couple short videos to share with you my perception.

The first video is my Taylor 312CE with bone saddle and Rotosound strings (2 hours old).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stEBfxSc-Xo

The second video is again my Taylor: I tried to frame the strings just to show how the coating came out. I know I have a sweating hands issue...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwyNEy76wEI



The third video... well, I decided to record also my Ibanez PF10. It's the cheapest acoustic guitar that Ibanez carries, and I never replace its strings because I use this instrument just to practice the new songs at home. Its saddle comes from another guitar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4O1keq5OAM

Which one sounds better?

Thank you for your reply. Regards

Walter

[Earl]

Walter, it is so hard to judge tone via a YouTube video - so many variables.  I usually don't even try.  But I did watch them.

I hear what you mean by "dull" or "tubby" bass strings.  They sound like they are six weeks old, yet you indicated that they have been on the guitar for only a day.  For only a couple hours of play, that is a lot of corrosion and color change.  The third video sounds the best to me on those bass strings.  In the second video, you are stroking the string away from the sound hole.  Different motion, with a different sequence of contact with flesh-nail-release, so I would expect a different tone. 

I suggest that you try some coated strings, like Cleartones or Elixirs or similar.  I also use GHS White bronze.  These 52% nickle strings sound 2-3 days old and somewhat mellow when first put on, but stay that way for me for several weeks.  You are just going to have to try different strings until you find the right combo for your guitar and your skin chemistry.  Rotosounds don't appear to the right choice.  It is not clear that you can blame this tone issue on the saddle material.  Another option is to try deliberately picking a couple of inches closer to the bridge, which will give you a brighter tone.

Hope this helps, at least a little.

[jpmist]

I note in a previous post that you mentioned your guitar was made in 2009. To me the saddle looks like slightly above average wear for a 5 year old guitar and it's not a bad idea to change it.

Since you're still having sustain issues, maybe it's time to inspect the nut as well. If it's as worn as your saddle  it could be time to change that out as well.

Over time, where the string contacts the nut in the string slot, the slot will flatten out. A wider contact point could be affecting your tone and sustain.  Look closely at the burnish marks in the string slot, if the length of the mark is anywhere near over 20% of the width of the slot than that flatness could be robbing you of sustain.

So either find a Luthier that can make you a custom bone nut, or simply order a replacement off of Taylor's webstore. You may have to sand it a bit to get it to fit, but that's not difficult. Good luck!

https://www.taylorguitars.com/taylorware/category/for-your-guitar/parts/nuts

[walter_dh]

JP, many thanks for your kind reply.

You're right, the guitar was originally bought in 2009 by the previous owner who actually didin't use it much (he's a local semipro electric guitar player so he didn't have any chance to play the Taylor); when I bought the Taylor from this guy the last spring, the guitar was immaculate; as a consequence, the nut and the saddle were almost new. The strings were 3 years old, covered with oxyde, rust and other dirt so when I played the guitar at this guy's place, I wasn't in the best condition to evaluate the instrument, but I was comfortable with the shape and the neck; plus it was a Taylor, so I was confident I was buying a good guitar.

I think that you're right regarding the opportunity to replace also the nut. Not only because may it be slightly worn out (the slot flatten out, as you precisely wrote) but mainly because it is made of plastic or resin (Tusq installed in factory). My idea is to give this guitar another chance and ask a professional luthier to make a new bone nut. It's a pity that Bob Colosi doesn't carry any machined bone nut because I would have bought one from this gentle guy. Anyway, if the bone nut will significantly improve the  tone , I will be happy and satisfied :-), otherwise I will sell the Taylor and probably have a pickup installed on my poor man Ibanez.

If only I lived in the USA (I'm Italian as you may have suspected by reading my posts written in a naive English) I would go to an official Taylor repair centre to discuss about it, but in Italy things are a bit more difficult, and my only resources are a couple of skilled local luthiers; as you probably know, generally many luthiers have "strong" opinions about guitar assembled in factory; their  regular comment sounds like  "you can't expect good nor outstanding quality form a xxx euros (replace xxx with a mid range price) series production guitar while it takes me months to make a guitar for one of my customers..."

But there's something in the back of my mind that tells me that this guitar wasn't exactly born under a lucky star; even though I am not a good musicians, I've been around for many years and I think I can at least recognize if a there's something wrong with an acoustic guitar.

So, long story short. I am contacting a luthier to have the plastic nut replaced with a custom made bone nut, and I'll be back to you as soon as I will get the guitar back :-)

As always, I thank you all for your priceless support.

[walter_dh]

Hi guys

I would like to share with you the happy end (it looks like an happy end, so far) of the story.
In these weeks, while exchanging messages with some of this board's members (thanks!!), I contacted Taylor USA and Europe to ask for assistance: I explained the problem which afflicted my 312CE. They were super nice and available to help me, but basically they replied that:
- being the warranty expired, it was not possible to claim that there is a manufacturing defect
- the guitar ships with Elixir HD strings and I had to install those strings in order to have a correct setup (uhmmmm..)
- an inspection could be done by technicians at Talor Europe, but at my cost.

So I put the guitar in m car's trunk and drove to a local luthier who had already fixed a guitar of mine. This guy is a qualified and seasoned luthier with a depp knowledge of acoustics, wood, physics, music. Plus he has a nice attitude and patiently listened to my story then started to carefully inspect  my guitar. He told me that he wanted to keep the guitar for at least 2 weeks to find out how to fix the problem avoiding big works (live shaving the braces or modyfing the top).

After exactly 2 weeks he asked me to come to his lab. He played and checked the guitar for two weeks, inspecting every inch. He replaced again the saddle with a new buffalo bone saddle adapted to fit my Taylor, then  fixed a loose cable inside inside the body and... surprise! He managed to significantly improve my Taylor's sustain and resonance. Now the soudboard resonates and vibrates as it should do, the sustain is longer and stronger, the tone is crisper. Even if he didn't even replace the strings, worn out and dirty, the sound improvement was remarkable.  This is the short version of the story, but should someone be interested in the details, I will be happy to disclose them!
Last but not least: the final cost was so low that I instisted to pay more.
I was so happy and satisfied!   

Some final considerations.
1. In this post  I am not saying that Bob Colosi's saddle was not good or effective. Don't take me wrong. I respect Bob's work. Maybe that saddle was just not the ideal component for my Taylor. I installed that saddle on my Ibanez, and it works fine.
2. Elixir are good strings and Taylor co-developed a model with Elixir. But I wonder why Taylor official response to fix a problem was always: "install Elixir strings". Every single time. Any acoustic guitar should work correctly with any make, model and gauge of strings (within specifications, of course). If a guitar sounds decently with only one kind of strings, well, there's something wrong with that guitar or it is just a marketing statement
3. I am happy I found this great luthier in my town

Now it's time to stop talking about harware and start playing some good tunes with the band

Many thanks for your attention and suggestions!

w

[jpmist]

Congrats Walter on finding a solution for your Taylor! Am very jealous that you found a competent luthier who actually was willing to listen to you and come up with a solution. Having heard your YouTube posts and read your details of the problem I'm still curious about what your luthier did.

I'm guessing that the Colossi saddle had too blunt an edge and that your luthier's custom saddle was fitted more tightly and with a more pointed edge. Also guessing he touched up the nut slots to get a better contact point for those bass strings. The improvement he got was really impressive.

Congrats again for making your 312 a keeper.