Author Topic: ES2 Help  (Read 3592 times)

hacknsmack

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ES2 Help
« on: September 01, 2021, 06:14:52 PM »
OK, first of all, I LOVE the unplugged tone of my 414ce-LTD. I HATE the tone plugged in. I brought it to a Taylor "Gold" shop and they did some adjustments... and it still sucks next to my 98 410 with a replaced Fishman and even next to my '06 310ce with ES1.3 upgrade. I also have an AD-27 which was intentionally purchased w/o electronics and added a K&K Pure Mini (no batteries!!) to as I do play out a bit.
My question: can I replace the ES2 with another K&K or, due to the combination of the adjustment screws on the saddle and installed battery case, should I just skip it and <shudder> sell this guitar and order a different V-class without electronics? (or a used "higher end" dreadnought)
Rick
Avatar pic, bottom to top (why is it is sideways?) '96 410ce, '17 810e, '04 310ce

Edward

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2021, 09:59:48 PM »
Hey Rick,

There are a good number who like the ES2, but I am absolutely not one of them.  FWIW, I don't care for the K&K, personally, but will say the ES1.3 is superb, and one of the best out there to my ears.  I also think the Baggs Anthem is superb.  All this said, I'd personally not want to deal with bypassing the ES2 on your guitar.  Sure you could gut the electronics, but you'd still be left with those unsightly three allen heads in the saddle. 

My recommendation:

1. Find a non-ES2 Taylor you like, then sell your guitar.  And after having owned every iteration, the 1.3 is the best sounding of the entire ES line, and better than most pickup systems out there, IMO.

2. Keep your guitar and use a DI with a good tone stack that will allow you to dial out that egregiously heavy bass tone and add clarity and sparkle.  I use a Baggs Venue and it is stellar, but Fishman's PlatPro and Radial's PreZ are all excellent choices that will provide you with a clean preamp and good tone stack that can get you closer to where you want.  FWIW, the Venue (though the oldest design of these three) has two sweep EQ bands vs the others with one band, and I find this helpful, though all these will do well.  A good EQ will do much to help you shape the ES2 more to your liking, and it is a far less costly experiment.  Heck, buy one from GC or Sweetwater and you can return it if it doesn't get you where you want to be.

FWIW, I don't love my ES2 guit's amplified tone as I do my ES1.3 guit, but at least I can make my ES2 usable live.  Hope that gives you something to think about at least :)

Edward
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 10:03:34 PM by Edward »

Earl

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2021, 06:00:45 PM »
Rick, it should be feasible to abandon-in-place the ES2 system - leave the elements in place, but disconnect and bypass them electrically to another pickup.  You will probably need those three adjustment posts to maintain side pressure or position on the saddle, even though they will no longer function for tone.  You likely need to temporarily remove the end plate and de-solder the wiring to the end pin jack, and then solder your K&K (or whatever) wiring to it.  The three controls on the upper bout could be left in place, as they would do nothing.  I said "likely" and "probably"having never attempted this modification.

I was always happy gigging with the Fishman barn door in my 414ce (2001) and later the ES1.3 systems.  I specifically avoid anything with ES2 in it, as I have often said here before.  It would take some searching, but I recall seeing aftermarket plugs for the ES2 elements, the end plate and the control knobs on the side of the guitar.  From my saved bookmarks, here is one example:  https://shawwoodshop.com/products/expression-system-retro-kit-taylor-acoustic-guitars
Taylors:  424-LTD (all koa) and a 114ce that lives with friends in Alaska.  Low maintenance carbon fiber guitars are my "thing" these days, but I will always keep the koa 424.  Several ukulele and bass guitars too. 
*Gone but not forgotten:  a 2001 414ce, 410, 354-LTD twelve string, 314-N, 416-LTD baritone, T5 Classic, 615ce, 2006 GS-K, 1996 (first year) Baby

hacknsmack

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2021, 11:11:55 AM »
Thanks for the info Edward and Earl. I was within arms length of a '01 410-R with the Anthem. Unfortunately the seller and I couldn't get together before another buyer got it. I am considering a "special order" of a V-Class 814c (sans electronics) or possibly saving a few $$ and making it a 414, though I like the rosewood and armrest on the 8.

Edward: Even with my Fishman Aura I am not able to dial out the "quack"(?) I get from the ES2 - though... thinking about it, I don't know that I have tried it since I got the Aura.. hmmm... maybe...
   Also, the LRB Anthem might be my next "none electric Taylor" retrofit as I have heard good things from a few people, though I'm not a big fan of battery power. (hence the K&K)

Earl: Thanks for the link. I had planned to just leave the "stock" cover as I wasn't aware the others existed. Gives me something to think about.
Rick
Avatar pic, bottom to top (why is it is sideways?) '96 410ce, '17 810e, '04 310ce

Edward

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2021, 12:03:15 PM »
Hey Rick,

Sorry if this is long and meandering ...you caught me with a cup o joe so I'm going to wax on a bit out here :)

FWIW, you really don't want to use an Aura in this application.  These are quasi-modelers where a programmed EQ curve resides in each of the presets.  This is not EQing by your hand, thus you are only getting what the Fishman's sound gurus "aim" at achieving sonically, which really is an approximation for each of the presets they offer.  No one can predict the myriad pickup choices, signal chain, resultant output (amp, console, PA); simply too many variables there. The Aura is an attempt to simplify the task for the end user, particularly for those who are not versed in EQ and are unfamiliar with the tone throughout the freq spectrum.  This is not a "bad" thing nor derision toward Fishman as this unit has its place for folks!  But with simplification often comes limitations.

Which is likely why you still don't care for the ES2 tone: it is not designed to EQ for it.  The ES2 is a wholly different animal as no one has ever applied piezos in this way.  As I had already remarked, I don't love for the ES2's tone but I absolutely will take it over most piezo UST systems out there because most others have that dreaded quacky timbre that is so un-acoustic guitar!   I have to hand it to Taylor for thinking outside the box here and innovating atop existing piezo technology.  In my use/opinion, at least the ES2 lacks most of this ugly quack.  Though to my ears, the ES2's biggest downfall is an over-boosted bottom end that sounds artificial and muddy; again, very un-acoustic guitar timbre, and I have to work at gutting all that murky baked-in-bassy muck to get my guit to sound like a real acoustic when pumped through a PA.

So you need a DI that allows you to EQ for your pickup.  Which is why I recommended the Baggs Venue, Fish PlatPro, or Radial PZ (they have different "tonebone" models depending on your use) as these have a user-definable EQ stacks.  And most powerful is the parametric band that offers the user far more tonal sculpting than presets, or "bass/treble" controls.  Moreover, units like these are designed specifically for acoustic guitars' timbre, so the frequency centers on the "bass" and "treble" knobs are, again, more useful than the typical eq knobs on whatever console or PA.  Further, good units such as these two diff "treble" controls, as well as a "notch filter" that can hone in on that buggy bass frequencies that often cause low-end feedback.  That's a bunch of control over one's guitar tone.  And this can lead to a terrible sonic mess for some which is why many different "simplified" units exist, but is a boon for others who know how to fine-tune their tone.  Oh, and these (and many other) pricier units have better-sounding preamps than the cheaper ones where the latter often use lesser-quality preamps and throw in whatever effects that make for a more "feature rich" device to the consumer, but sacrificing tonal quality.  Price the Grace Alix/Felix ...that will give you pause.  I've always wanted to try a Felix, but I'm afraid I'd like it, LOL!

Like I said, it'd be great to have a non-ES2 guitar so you can start fresh.  But that's the most costly and laborious route, right?  You dig your guitar, just not diggin your amplified tone.  So address the latter with a DI good unit and see where it gets you.  If that fails, return it (Guit Center and Sweetwater are great about that), then go for the nuclear option ;)

BTW, I don't mean to presume you don't know any of this ...you may be super savvy and may be far more adept than me.  So I am just throwing all this out there with the hope that maybe it can give you, or perhaps others, a few things to consider.  That, and my mug of coffee isn't empty yet :D

Edward

« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 12:23:50 PM by Edward »

Guitars44me

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2021, 10:08:42 PM »
Buy something that sounds GREAT both acoustic and plugged in, to you. Then when sure....Sell this.

I do agree the ES1.3 is the best pup Taylor has done, at least for the solo and sometimes heavy handed thumb and finger pick stuff I do....

The world is FULL of fiddles. Find a fine fit for you

My $.02

Paul
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 10:11:25 PM by Guitars44me »

hacknsmack

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2021, 11:40:00 AM »
Thanks Edward!! While I am somehow responsible for running sound for our band - which I am admittedly not great at, but we get by, I am a definite "newbie" when it comes to shaping acoustic guitar tone. I use that Aura with the "dreadnought"  preset into our mixer. 
I am in the process of switching over to a Soundcraft Ui16 digital mixer and I am hoping that, as well as following your suggestions of something along the line of one of the Radial units will allow me to get the use/enjoyment I want from the 414 when on stage. I'll also have to spend some time in my living room with the PA hooked up and do a little more experimenting. (my wife absolutely loves when I do that!)
Also, my description of "quack" was, I suppose, inaccurate. It is more like a "chimey squeak" or something, which is, admittedly, MUCH different than "quack".
Thanks again!

PS... don't apologize for "long and meandering", as I am grateful for the information/opinion!
Rick
Avatar pic, bottom to top (why is it is sideways?) '96 410ce, '17 810e, '04 310ce

Edward

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2021, 12:40:11 PM »
Hey Rick,

Glad that helped you a bit, man!

BTW, Radial is killer ...built like tanks, always dead quiet, and if whatever unit you have works for you, it will last forever!

"Somehow responsible for running sound" ...hahaha, man do I know that pain, LOL!  Seems like most folks I play with, and now my current band, I'm the shmuck luggin the PA ...so lucky! ;)  If you're using a Soundcraft digital, you are way ahead of the game ...good on you!  That's a powerful, well-regarded board (yeah, I'm jealous!).  I'm still using an analog Mackie at gigs because I can get away with it and I've had it laying around for yeeears.  But if I could justify the dough, I'd go digital console in a heartbeat!

Rock on, sir ...report back your findings! :)

Edward
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 12:44:42 PM by Edward »

PaulWood

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2021, 06:31:11 AM »
Interesting that you are moving to a Soundcraft UI16, as I've been using one for about 3 years. Let me say up-front, I am NOT a fan of ES2 and will never buy another guitar with that system fitted. I do own one ES2 guitar, a 2006 814ce which originally had the first ES system fitted (2 AA batts). It reached the point where I needed to replace the electrics, so I asked a Taylor dealer if I could have ES1.3 fitted. I was (wrongly) told that Taylor would only fit ES2 and, foolishly I now realise, I accepted this. Long story short, my old 'go to' guitar hardly ever leaves it's case now - I just don't like it's sound amplified. Having said that, the EQ options on the UI16 are very good (I'm no sound expert) and it's possible to get a reasonable tone out of the 814ce. The only other 'helper' I use is a Bodyrez pedal set at about 2 o'clock. The shortcoming is that there doesn't appear to be any 'personality' or 'character' to the tone - it no longer stands out in the mix and, of course, the sound is ruined by the sound of finger movements on the strings. So, 'thumbs up' for the Soundcraft UI16, but definitely 'thumbs down' for ES2.

Edward

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2021, 11:53:45 AM »
Hey Paul,

Ooh, sorry to hear you had them install the ES2 ...I hear your regret, sorry man!  Don't beat yourself up about it, though, as Taylor was hot-n-heavy touting the ES2 as their superior new pickup ...it took time to pass for folks to find the 1.3 vastly superior to this "improved" pickup.   FWIW, I had an orig ES AA-batt that was dying fitted with an ES1.2 many years ago, and that was a superb live guit for some time (till I sold it to fund another ;) ).  My current live guit is an 08 DN with 1.3 and is my fave and absolute keeper.  But you can do much to make the ES2 better.

Your finger squeak can be mitigated with EQ from your UI16: anything north of 10k is "presence" or "airiness" but also exacerbates that string noise.  Dial it down here and find that compromise.  Likewise, play with the 5k or so to add in brightness that the you had just attenuated from the upper frequencies. Experiment in this neighborhood to get that "sparkle" and crisp "liveliness" but reduce the string noise.

Also, I've found with the ES2, try ditching the low mids: the 400-600hz range is sonic mud typically, and with the ES2 it's even worse.  Scoop here and leave in some 80-100 and you've have a more solid bottom end that is tighter and clearer.  And if you haven't done so already, use the HPF at around 80 as there's nothing you want from a guitar below that.

Also try some mild, very judicious boost in the 1-2k range.  I typically never do this on acoustic tone (esp with UST piezos as this is where quack lives!), but for the ES2 it seems to mitigate/balance the bass heaviness inherent to this pickup system.  And it will put your tone more "forward" into the mix; but go light here as these mids add definition to a point, but can easily make an acoustic sound "electric" if too much.

BTW, try all the above without the BodyRes; keep your signal chain purely your 814 to console.  Set up one of your PA spkrs, and audition all changes from at least 8+ feet away at a good volume so you hear the genuine bass information well.  The BodyRez like other simplified units are that compromise where Baggs has preset EQ curves that vary along that one knob's range.  It's a simple unit (like the Aura, et.al.) that works for some, but only if one's guitar falls along the varying EQ curves that the engineers have designed them.  And guess what, these boxes are designed for the ubiquitous UST piezo which the ES2 is most certainly not.

All my freq suggestions are, of course, approximations based on my ES2 in a dred body, and run through Yamaha DXRs, so obviously trial/error with your system is the norm.  But patience will likely yield you better tone from your 814 than with the BodyRez.  Chime back in with what ya find! :)

Edward
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 12:02:46 PM by Edward »

PaulWood

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2021, 06:21:05 AM »
Good stuff, Edward - really helpful, thank you.
I'm on it and will get back to you.
BTW (it makes no difference but) I mistyped my post and promoted my 614ce to an 814ce!
Looks like we might have some rain coming in over the next few days, so I'll hunker down and play with the digital knobs!

hacknsmack

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2021, 12:40:08 PM »
Paul: Full Disclosure... I have had the Ui16 almost 2 years and haven't implemented it yet. I've been "intimidated" by it (despite the fact that I have been working on computers for about 40 years <sigh>) Anyway, I just fired it up the other day and have managed to get the crappy "squeak"  or whatever out of my 414ce-LTD. I'll have to see how I did it and if it holds up in live performances.

As far as never owning another ES2 guitar... same. I specifically ordered my AD27 without electronics. I am "on the lookout" for a "pre-ES" or, even better, non electric x10 (4 or up) w/o cutaway. If I find one, I'll probably give my 310 to my son as he borrows it for gigs that need a good sounding, good playing acoustic. I toyed with the idea of special ordering a new 814 via Sweetwater but decided against it. Once I retire, I'll probably sell a bunch of gear and buy one though, just for myself, at home... although with all the gear I'll be selling, it may end up being a 914 or even a PS. lol

Edward: Again... thanks for the great info!!
Rick
Avatar pic, bottom to top (why is it is sideways?) '96 410ce, '17 810e, '04 310ce

PaulWood

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2021, 07:46:58 AM »
Rick - I use my UI16 with an old Mini iPad connected wirelessly and it works just fine. In fact, I prefer it to the old Soundcraft desk I owned previously - much more compact and intuitive for a 'non-expert' like me. I hope you have hours of fun with yours!

Edward - I 've now had a good session, following your advice on getting the EQ right on my ES2 guitar (614ce NOT 814ce!) Your post was really useful and I'm sure there will be other Group members out there who will agree with me. Whilst I was pretty close with the set-up (more luck than judgement!), I've managed to wring a little more out of it, so it's going in the right direction. The main issue for me seems to be not overdoing the Mids. I still have an issue with the lack of projection/personality but maybe that's a personal thing with this particular guitar - it used to be so vibrant. Anyway, the proof of the pudding, in this case, will be in the recording. I'm looking forward to using it on a few Pro-Tools sessions to get a definitive view on how it sounds. Thanks again for your help.

Paul

Edward

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2021, 10:59:06 AM »
Sounds good, Paul ...glad you're getting some sonic progress!

FWIW, I am hip on live sound, but recording is new to me as I've had my aud interface for only maybe a year dabbling here and there with recording.  Nice thing about the latter is there is much one can do to make acoustic tone sound lively within a DAW.  With recording the ES (any version), I track with both a mic and the ES on two channels and found that shaping each independently, then blending/panning and fx, can sound pretty good.  Just a thought as I have been experimenting with my Focusrite trying to get legit recorded acoustic tone.  A new challenge, but a fun one :)

Edward

PaulWood

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Re: ES2 Help
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2021, 06:37:05 AM »
Hi Edward. I think you're right on recording acoustic guitar using mic and direct input - it's something I've been meaning to try out but just haven't got round to. Up until now, I've just plugged straight into my Focusrite Scarlet 2i4 (first generation). In fact, I stopped using the 614ce for recording a few years ago, because it sounded so bad with ES2! I'll give it another try.