Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Topic started by: ahalikias on February 25, 2019, 02:14:38 PM
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Do products like ToneRite or PrimeVibe actually work, i.e. accelerate aging/breaking-in process? Have you used on a high end Taylor?
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Soooo...there's a "Search" function here on this site. Put in "Tonerite" or "Primevibe" and you'll see people have been discussing it here (in multiple threads so why start another?) since 2012.
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The only thing I know for sure is there is no substitute for simply playing and enjoying your guitar(s) for many, many years.
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Soooo...there's a "Search" function here on this site. Put in "Tonerite" or "Primevibe" and you'll see people have been discussing it here (in multiple threads so why start another?) since 2012.
Well, this is a discussion forum rather than an archived repository of all things Taylor related, so, as such, I don't take issue with someone starting a new thread on a topic we've already discussed. It's easy enough to simply avoid a thread I'm not interested in for whatever reason.
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Well, this is a discussion forum rather than an archived repository of all things Taylor related, so, as such, I don't take issue with someone starting a new thread on a topic we've already discussed. It's easy enough to simply avoid a thread I'm not interested in for whatever reason.
I agree. The search function is a very nice feature, and users may like to know that one way to find info would be to search previous discussions, but I don't think it is intended that it be a requirement to check the archives before you post a comment.
Also, I dont have any experience with these products , but I would tend to agree with StrummingMadMan's comment above.
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Thanks! Here are some newbie thoughts:
- I hadn't even thought of using the Search as a way of reaching archived material, so thank you for the suggestion
- I did use it just now, and the format/comments the Search returned are not easy to follow
- I apologized in advance in an earlier post in case it was a repeat, but I can't be saying so in every post
- It's impractical to be obliged to do research before one can ask a question to the forum
- I'm sure since 2012 there have been product improvements, blogger analyses, Taylor owners with newer experiences of these products, etc, so revisiting a topic may actually be worth doing anyway.
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This is one of those topics where if you ask five people, you will get six opinions. :o
Some folks swear by the benefits, some hear no difference at all and consider such things a waste of time. Personally I have not used a Tonerite or other artificial method to "age" my guitars, but I understand the concept. My guitars would never have been purchased if I were not satisfied with their sound to begin with. I know this isn't particularly helpful, but that is my experience.
Don't worry about the "search first" comments. There probably isn't a topic under the sun that has not been discussed multiple times before. The possible exception is a totally brand new model like the Grand Pacific / x17's.
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I respect Ahalikias' question. Most responders to this post are relative newbies to the forum, as are the majority of responders in general. Many who have posted in the past have moved on, so some fresh perspective is welcome. Let's play nice!!!!
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Actually I never said there was a requirement to search before posting. Nor was I suggesting people couldn't add to discussions. Nor was I not playing nice. In fact, in my attempt to guide the OP to finding an answer rather than waiting for others ended up with my being attacked here. Thanks folks!
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Actually I never said there was a requirement to search before posting. Nor was I suggesting people couldn't add to discussions. Nor was I not playing nice. In fact, in my attempt to guide the OP to finding an answer rather than waiting for others ended up with my being attacked here. Thanks folks!
Your original post came off as a bit snarky ("Sooo....") and seemed to indicate that there was no need to start a new thread ("people have been discussing it here (in multiple threads so why start another?)"), so several of us have clarified that there is no problem in starting a new thread. That was only intended to clarify that we are here to discuss things related to Taylor guitars. No offense intended.
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Thanks! Here are some newbie thoughts:
- I hadn't even thought of using the Search as a way of reaching archived material, so thank you for the suggestion
- I did use it just now, and the format/comments the Search returned are not easy to follow
- I apologized in advance in an earlier post in case it was a repeat, but I can't be saying so in every post
- It's impractical to be obliged to do research before one can ask a question to the forum
- I'm sure since 2012 there have been product improvements, blogger analyses, Taylor owners with newer experiences of these products, etc, so revisiting a topic may actually be worth doing anyway.
I agree with you 100%. What subject has not been covered at least once? I too find the search function less than ideal.
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ok folks, let’s get back on track. it’s hard to gauge emotion over electronic text, so let’s not get too worked about it
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Well put Zebow!
I have used Tone-Rites on dozens of guitars. R.Taylors, Custom Taylors, regular Taylors, many other brands, and some custom single bench Luthiers too!
They almost always sound better to me after a good week long vibes session... or sometimes many!
Koa, Adirondack and other woods that often take a long break in period seem to benefit the most.
I had a Baden that went from meh to WOW in one week.
Some serious high end builders use them and I wager they can hear the difference too!
Try one and see. They don't cost much.
Good luck and Happy picking!
Paul
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Well put Zebow!
I have used Tone-Rites on dozens of guitars. R.Taylors, Custom Taylors, regular Taylors, many other brands, and some custom single bench Luthiers too!
They almost always sound better to me after a good week long vibes session... or sometimes many!
Koa, Adirondack and other woods that often take a long break in period seem to benefit the most.
I had a Baden that went from meh to WOW in one week.
Some serious high end builders use them and I wager they can hear the difference too!
Try one and see. They don't cost much.
Good luck and Happy picking!
Paul
i bet i would like this. i liked the “played in” tone 12 frets give. maybe i’ll try this on my mini lol
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For the search challenged among us:
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1215 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1215)
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1604 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1604)
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1374 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=1374)
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=6399 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=6399)
Summarizing: If you think it works, it does. If you don't think it works, it doesn't.
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I have not used one but considering the physics involved with our beloved wooden boxes, I bet it would help speed the process. I have a friend who swears by leaving yonder git-tar on a stand next to a stereo speaker to "dig the vibes man". Sure can't hurt anyway. Rock on...
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I reached out to Andy Powers directly on this topic, as it was asked over in Taylor Guitars Owners Group on Facebook as well. I do some video work for Taylor and know Andy a bit, so I'm lucky enough to be able to reach our occasionally when questions require a "deep dive" beyond my knowledge or expertise as an authorized repair tech.
Here's what I asked:
This is an interesting topic that just came up. Someone asked about whether or not Tonerite “works” and if it’s as significant as roasting tops. My elementary understanding is that roasting is speeding up the wood curing process, which is more like hitting fast forward on aging. I’ve never seen any science on vibrating guitars and wanted to get your thoughts.
There’s also a question about whether or not roasting tops affects the longevity of guitars, meaning will they not last as long because they’ve been roasted. I would think the opposite might be true, as old guitars seem a little more humidity resilient in my limited experience. Again, curious to hear your thoughts.
Thanks for all your help on these.
Gabriel O'Brien
And his response:
Hi Gabe, These are both good questions, with fairly long answers, as well as further discovery still to be made. There is an interesting connection between a vibrating guitar "aging" as well as heat treating having an aging effect. In simplified terms, these two processes have somewhat opposite effects, judging by the intention of each technique. Torrefaction is a high heat treatment which tries to improve the resonance characteristics of a piece of wood by subtly increasing wood strength proportionate to its weight. Vibrating a piece of wood to improve its resonance characteristics is trying to make the wood more flexible and therefore be set in motion more easily. Both processes can achieve these results to a degree, both happen simultaneously, and neither are exact substitutions for what happens to a guitar naturally.
It's helpful to understand what we want from a guitar. As a player, I want the pleasing, accurate, musical vibrations which allow me to play songs. At the same time, I want to reject or remove the non-musical sounds which might interfere with this music. More of the good musical sound is good, less of the bad, inharmonic sound is also good. More of everything isn't necessarily better.
Torrefaction can make a piece of wood more resonant, but this translates to more able to resonate with the good harmonic sound, as well as the undesirable inharmonic sound. As an experiment, we tried some heavily torrefacted wood-far beyond what I'd build a guitar with. While the guitars were loud, they had so much inharmonic distortion, they were impossible to tune to accurate pitch, and had an harsh, brash sound-very unpleasant to listen to. The heat treating process we use on some of our tops will alter the wood's resonance a little, but retains more of the natural oxidation which would occur over a long period of time. With this, we experience a level of dimensional stability that serves a player and the instrument well, but allows for a more musically pleasing guitar. It seems to do a better job aligning with what occurs over time at room or stage temperatures. You might find it interesting to know we actually use a heat treating step on every single one of our tops, and have for more than 25 years now. Improved dimensional stability is achieved at far lower temperatures than is required to change the color of a top and we like consistent, stable guitars. So what appear to be raw spruce tops on everything from a baby Taylor to a presentation series guitar has actually been seasoned using a heat treatment.
Vibrating a guitar in a way inconsistent with how a guitar is played will certainly "loosen it up" to use a common term, but doesn't do it in the exact same way as a guitar which develops a preference for playing the notes originating from its fingerboard.
To use another analogy; if we started with a fresh and crisp dollar bill, then got it wet, then dried it in the sun, it turns into a crackly, crisp piece of paper. Then, if you crumple it, fold it, bend it, rumple it, over and over, it slowly takes on the texture of a limp piece of cloth. That's similar to these two processes.
Considering the longevity of the guitar, if the heat treating process isn't carefully controlled, you can certainly shorten the wood's functional lifespan. If done well, other aspects of the guitar, like the neck angle, will surely become a problem far before the top's structural characteristics become a chief concern.
-Andy
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I reached out to Andy Powers directly on this topic, as it was asked over in Taylor Guitars Owners Group on Facebook as well. I do some video work for Taylor and know Andy a bit, so I'm lucky enough to be able to reach our occasionally when questions require a "deep dive" beyond my knowledge or expertise as an authorized repair tech.
Here's what I asked:
This is an interesting topic that just came up. Someone asked about whether or not Tonerite “works” and if it’s as significant as roasting tops. My elementary understanding is that roasting is speeding up the wood curing process, which is more like hitting fast forward on aging. I’ve never seen any science on vibrating guitars and wanted to get your thoughts.
There’s also a question about whether or not roasting tops affects the longevity of guitars, meaning will they not last as long because they’ve been roasted. I would think the opposite might be true, as old guitars seem a little more humidity resilient in my limited experience. Again, curious to hear your thoughts.
Thanks for all your help on these.
Gabriel O'Brien
And his response:
Hi Gabe, These are both good questions, with fairly long answers, as well as further discovery still to be made. There is an interesting connection between a vibrating guitar "aging" as well as heat treating having an aging effect. In simplified terms, these two processes have somewhat opposite effects, judging by the intention of each technique. Torrefaction is a high heat treatment which tries to improve the resonance characteristics of a piece of wood by subtly increasing wood strength proportionate to its weight. Vibrating a piece of wood to improve its resonance characteristics is trying to make the wood more flexible and therefore be set in motion more easily. Both processes can achieve these results to a degree, both happen simultaneously, and neither are exact substitutions for what happens to a guitar naturally.
It's helpful to understand what we want from a guitar. As a player, I want the pleasing, accurate, musical vibrations which allow me to play songs. At the same time, I want to reject or remove the non-musical sounds which might interfere with this music. More of the good musical sound is good, less of the bad, inharmonic sound is also good. More of everything isn't necessarily better.
Torrefaction can make a piece of wood more resonant, but this translates to more able to resonate with the good harmonic sound, as well as the undesirable inharmonic sound. As an experiment, we tried some heavily torrefacted wood-far beyond what I'd build a guitar with. While the guitars were loud, they had so much inharmonic distortion, they were impossible to tune to accurate pitch, and had an harsh, brash sound-very unpleasant to listen to. The heat treating process we use on some of our tops will alter the wood's resonance a little, but retains more of the natural oxidation which would occur over a long period of time. With this, we experience a level of dimensional stability that serves a player and the instrument well, but allows for a more musically pleasing guitar. It seems to do a better job aligning with what occurs over time at room or stage temperatures. You might find it interesting to know we actually use a heat treating step on every single one of our tops, and have for more than 25 years now. Improved dimensional stability is achieved at far lower temperatures than is required to change the color of a top and we like consistent, stable guitars. So what appear to be raw spruce tops on everything from a baby Taylor to a presentation series guitar has actually been seasoned using a heat treatment.
Vibrating a guitar in a way inconsistent with how a guitar is played will certainly "loosen it up" to use a common term, but doesn't do it in the exact same way as a guitar which develops a preference for playing the notes originating from its fingerboard.
To use another analogy; if we started with a fresh and crisp dollar bill, then got it wet, then dried it in the sun, it turns into a crackly, crisp piece of paper. Then, if you crumple it, fold it, bend it, rumple it, over and over, it slowly takes on the texture of a limp piece of cloth. That's similar to these two processes.
Considering the longevity of the guitar, if the heat treating process isn't carefully controlled, you can certainly shorten the wood's functional lifespan. If done well, other aspects of the guitar, like the neck angle, will surely become a problem far before the top's structural characteristics become a chief concern.
-Andy
And there you have it. Thanks for sharing that Gabriel. We're lucky to have you on the forum here with us.
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Always happy to be of help. Andy is a great resource and he's very gracious in being quick to respond. There aren't usually a ton of Taylor questions. Ican't answer, but sometimes it's great to just go right to the source on big think topics like this.
I reached out to Andy Powers directly on this topic, as it was asked over in Taylor Guitars Owners Group on Facebook as well. I do some video work for Taylor and know Andy a bit, so I'm lucky enough to be able to reach our occasionally when questions require a "deep dive" beyond my knowledge or expertise as an authorized repair tech.
Here's what I asked:
This is an interesting topic that just came up. Someone asked about whether or not Tonerite “works” and if it’s as significant as roasting tops. My elementary understanding is that roasting is speeding up the wood curing process, which is more like hitting fast forward on aging. I’ve never seen any science on vibrating guitars and wanted to get your thoughts.
There’s also a question about whether or not roasting tops affects the longevity of guitars, meaning will they not last as long because they’ve been roasted. I would think the opposite might be true, as old guitars seem a little more humidity resilient in my limited experience. Again, curious to hear your thoughts.
Thanks for all your help on these.
Gabriel O'Brien
And his response:
Hi Gabe, These are both good questions, with fairly long answers, as well as further discovery still to be made. There is an interesting connection between a vibrating guitar "aging" as well as heat treating having an aging effect. In simplified terms, these two processes have somewhat opposite effects, judging by the intention of each technique. Torrefaction is a high heat treatment which tries to improve the resonance characteristics of a piece of wood by subtly increasing wood strength proportionate to its weight. Vibrating a piece of wood to improve its resonance characteristics is trying to make the wood more flexible and therefore be set in motion more easily. Both processes can achieve these results to a degree, both happen simultaneously, and neither are exact substitutions for what happens to a guitar naturally.
It's helpful to understand what we want from a guitar. As a player, I want the pleasing, accurate, musical vibrations which allow me to play songs. At the same time, I want to reject or remove the non-musical sounds which might interfere with this music. More of the good musical sound is good, less of the bad, inharmonic sound is also good. More of everything isn't necessarily better.
Torrefaction can make a piece of wood more resonant, but this translates to more able to resonate with the good harmonic sound, as well as the undesirable inharmonic sound. As an experiment, we tried some heavily torrefacted wood-far beyond what I'd build a guitar with. While the guitars were loud, they had so much inharmonic distortion, they were impossible to tune to accurate pitch, and had an harsh, brash sound-very unpleasant to listen to. The heat treating process we use on some of our tops will alter the wood's resonance a little, but retains more of the natural oxidation which would occur over a long period of time. With this, we experience a level of dimensional stability that serves a player and the instrument well, but allows for a more musically pleasing guitar. It seems to do a better job aligning with what occurs over time at room or stage temperatures. You might find it interesting to know we actually use a heat treating step on every single one of our tops, and have for more than 25 years now. Improved dimensional stability is achieved at far lower temperatures than is required to change the color of a top and we like consistent, stable guitars. So what appear to be raw spruce tops on everything from a baby Taylor to a presentation series guitar has actually been seasoned using a heat treatment.
Vibrating a guitar in a way inconsistent with how a guitar is played will certainly "loosen it up" to use a common term, but doesn't do it in the exact same way as a guitar which develops a preference for playing the notes originating from its fingerboard.
To use another analogy; if we started with a fresh and crisp dollar bill, then got it wet, then dried it in the sun, it turns into a crackly, crisp piece of paper. Then, if you crumple it, fold it, bend it, rumple it, over and over, it slowly takes on the texture of a limp piece of cloth. That's similar to these two processes.
Considering the longevity of the guitar, if the heat treating process isn't carefully controlled, you can certainly shorten the wood's functional lifespan. If done well, other aspects of the guitar, like the neck angle, will surely become a problem far before the top's structural characteristics become a chief concern.
-Andy
And there you have it. Thanks for sharing that Gabriel. We're lucky to have you on the forum here with us.