Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Topic started by: roadbiker on January 19, 2012, 09:22:52 AM
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I noticed a big difference in volume between my Taylor 814ce with ES and my Epiphone Masterbilt. The Epi is noticeably louder. Both using the same settings on the amp, the "detent" setting on the guitar, and the same cable. I've read that using a balanced cable with the Taylor will increase the volume from it.
Question: How can you tell the difference between a balanced and unbalanced 1/4" cable? I bought a Taylor V-Cable thinking that would help ($XX at Sweetwater, btw).
I know I don't need the volume control on the V-Cable because the guitar has volume control, but I found a good benefit of it - you can basically "turn off" the cable and unplug it from the guitar, so you can switch guitars without turning off the amp.
I play mine through a Fishman Loudbox Mini. Nice little amp!
Jim
edited for price
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Hey Jim,
Yes, you will be noticible louder if you run a balanced cable with your ES (a balanced cable will only work for systems designed to run balanced, of course). Think of an unbalanced signal as "half" that of a balanced one, though it is not "half" the volume. But in terms of the "wave signal," it is literally half, where the other half (of a balanced signal) is the same signal but 180 out of phase ...the simple net effect is that you get a louder, cleaner final signal (where both halves have been "summed" so to speak) as the signal-to-noise ratio is better (as if the noise floor were dropped).
The balanced cable simply looks like a regular phono plug with a third ring conductor (another black band). Sometimes these are referred to as TRS cables for "tip, ring, sleeve" where a regular guitar end is referred to as a "TS" for tip sleeve.
I've used both, and there are reasons for doing it either way. But the real answer is try both and see which you prefer.
Oh, I've never personally used a V-cable, but that little guy is simply a regular cord with a volume knob. You need a real TRS-to-XLR cable to utilize the balanced signal the ES is designed for.
Edward
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I have only yesterday taken delivery of balanced leads for my guitars. I go from guitar via Sabine feedback buster (trs compatible) to an AER alpha plus, (using its inbuilt DI to connect to a PA, I may try a breakout box one day). The AER has a female XLR connector (for microphone) which works with the ES (there is a little button marked high/low next to it - low is what seems to work). This amp gives me 3 band EQ for this channel - I don't know if a loud box has an equivalent input.
This set up has really surprised me - it is much louder and therefore there is less noise at equal volumes (it was already quiet!), and even better the sound is significantly clearer and better quality than when using a good quality standard 1/4 inch shielded lead (I thought it was good before). So far I am really pleased with the new leads but I haven't tried them on the church or band PA's yet....
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Hmm, I am confused. Does the ES actually have a low impedance output built in? The real difference between balanced and unbalanced outputs is the impedance. An unbalanced output is in the range of 600 Ohms and the unbalanced (single ended or as it is well known, high impedance) output is like 50 kOhms. I would love to feed a low impedance output into my ampifier but I though the output plug was only a two prong phone plug. Are you saying the there is actually a 3-prong connector in there and it is low-impedance? That would be cool. Can you tell me the pinout?
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Well, this thread really got me interested so I looked on the Taylor website and yes they do have a whole 3 sentences dedicated to describing their ability to output to a balanced input. I would hope the pinout corresponds to a standard connector although I cannot confirm this anywhere on the Taylor site. Low impedance, here I come. Maybe it will make my weak ES sound decent after all.
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I bought a Monster balanced cable (1/4" to 1/4"). I should have it in a couple of days and will comment on how it affects volume when I get it.
Jim
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Yessir, this is a true, Low impedance pickup system. The pinout is on the Taylor website, TRS-to-XLR ...it used to be in the case-candy info sheets, but I don't keep those. Check the website as I've definitely seen it there. Build yer own cable or buy one from Taylor.
And used as a low-Z, as in straight into a snake/console or power amp, it is excellent! That said, I feel one does not have to use the balanced signal to achieve excellent tone. I used to go TRS to XLR then board, then TRS to inline transformer to EQ, and now just go regular unbalanced 1/4" guit cable (a good mogami/neutrik) to Baggs Venue, to snake. The latter gives me the same tone as balanced ...and I like being able to use the Venue w/o the matching transformer. As with all guitar setups, YMMV and one should do what works best for your personal setup. But should you use the ES' low-Z signal, I think you will be very pleased as it's dead quiet and pristine clean (superb singal-to-noise ratio).
Edward
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I bought a Monster balanced cable (1/4" to 1/4"). I should have it in a couple of days and will comment on how it affects volume when I get it.
Jim
Jim, make sure that your amp input also has a balanced input if you are planning on plugging that 1/4" TRS into it. If its not, then you will see no benefit whatsoever from the cable. Instead, the inline impedance transformer with a TRS/XLR cable is your best bet.
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Thanks, Edward. I am really excited to try the balanced output. I will be feeding feeding a Fender acoustasonic DSP (the big acoustasonic) with a low impedance channel. I don't know if you are familiar with these particular amps but I am not sure my balanced input (really a microphone input) also feeds the DSP so I can get my reverb. Do you know?
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I bought a Monster balanced cable (1/4" to 1/4"). I should have it in a couple of days and will comment on how it affects volume when I get it.
Jim
Jim, make sure that your amp input also has a balanced input if you are planning on plugging that 1/4" TRS into it. If its not, then you will see no benefit whatsoever from the cable. Instead, the inline impedance transformer with a TRS/XLR cable is your best bet.
In the Loudbox Mini user guide it states:
"1. Instrument Input
This 1/4” input accepts all types of passive or active acoustic pickups."
So I think (hope) I'm okay with the cable I bought. It seems I have a growing collection of cables...
Jim
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I have a Loudbox Mini as well. Unfortunately, you're going to need to add one more cable to the collection.
The Mini has two inputs - one balanced (XLR) for a mic, and one unbalanced (1/4" TS) for the instrument. The balanced input is not really designed for an instrument as the basic eq curve and contour controls favors a human voice. I tried plugging an ES Taylor into that channel and had trouble getting a satisfactory tone out of the amp.
The unbalanced instrument input has much more tone control to shape the tone of the instrument. I would say the statement Fishman makes that it accepts all types of passive and active pickups has to do with the fact that it has a separate channel input gain control. This allows you to turn up the volume on lower output passive pickups and reign in stronger active pickups.
All of that aside, the Loudbox Mini *is* a great amp. I use mine all the time for small coffee shops and fiddling around at home. However, to get the full benefit of the ES pickup, I use a balanced TRS/XLR cable and an inline impedance transformer from Radio Shack. I'm afraid that's your only solution at this time.
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Gutch beat me to it :)
Most of these one-box amps have dual ins (and f/x) for soloists/light gigging. The low-z in really is curved for a voc mic ...not that you couldn't get a guit in there, but it won't sound "right." Same as the Ultrasound ...I had a DS4 that I really dug, but simply just went straight in unbalanced as it just sounded better.
Edward
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By the time I finish buying all of these cables, impedance transformer, Ietc. might as well just get the Loudbox Artist...
so this is what I need?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21Le62BLaZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Thanks for the tip.
Jim
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Yessir. That's the contraption right there...
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Bear in mind as you're experimenting with balanced and unbalanced setups, that everything depends on everything else. Meaning that "going unbalanced" isn't necessarily the best solution as you must consider every component in the chain. You may find that though going unbalanced gets you a hotter (louder) signal, it may not offer any better tone. Couple this with the fact that said hotter signal can overdrive the input or amp/whatever you're going into, yielding distortion. Then you walk away concluding going balanced is "bad," when in fact it's just that given those specific conditions, it was the wrong solution. Be objective and critical, that's all I'm saying. Find the solution that works best for the equipment you have. It is entirely possible you may end up with a regular guitar cord into your fishman guitar input :)
Edward
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+1 on Edward's comments. When you use the transformer with the ES into the Loudbox Mini, pay particular attention to the gain staging. I rarely turn the channel 1 input gain up more than 1/4 to 1/3 of the way (9:00-10:00 position). More than that and you will hear noticeable distortion as you then are overdriving the input.
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Some very good advice all. Thanks! I may have some cables for sale soon 8)
Jim