Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: George on February 15, 2016, 09:02:04 AM
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I'm planning on replacing the machine heads on my Mini Koa, and possibly on my 816. This is purely for aesthetics - I'm perfectly happy with the stability of the standard Taylor machine heads.
But here's my question; how good are they? The replacement candidates I'm looking at vary significantly in price, and while I would prefer not to break the bank, I also don't want to fit a replacement that's of inferior quality. Can anyone comment on these in comparison to the Taylor tuners:
- Gotoh 510 - I guess this is an 'upgrade' in quality, as it's offered as such by Taylor?
- Grover 7905 - these seem to be more-or-less the 'industry standard'
- Various Chinese copies at silly prices :-)
- Schaller M6 - these are the ones at the top of my list
Last year while on the hunt for my 816ce, the Lowden Stage Edition made it to my shortlist. As a player, this was a little bit too specialised for me, but I still love how it looks. The photo below is the look I'm after - those are Schaller M6 heads in gold with ebony buttons.
You can click on the photo to go to the site for a closer look...
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/belfastgeorge/2016-02-15%2014_32_46-The%20Stage%20Edition_zpsizivsetu.jpg) (http://www.lowdenguitars.com/guitar-spec-stage)
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From my POV, the Taylors are solid machines. I went through a phase a few years ago and changed out several of my Taylor tuners with Gotoh 510 21:1 replacements. They work great and are very smooth. However, I've kept the original equipment Taylor tuners on my last couple acquisitions ('14 416ce and '15 810e), and I'm finding no reason whatsoever to swap them out. Smooth, solid and stable tuning.
As for Schallers, my experience doesn't match their reputation. I have a 2006 Hamer Newport with Schaller Imperials, and I've found that the gearing slips when tuning and aren't nearly as smooth as the Taylor and Gotoh tuners. To be fair, I understand that they went through some troubles a while back and had some QC issues. The set I have may have come during that period.
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Just an option worth mentioning........Bill Nichols rosewood tuner buttons. They are easy to swap out, look and work nice, and are not expensive. Just thought I'd mention it.
http://www.nicholsinlay.com/more/tuner-buttons/
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Like you said, George, the Taylor machines are perfectly suitable to the job and "need" no replacement.
That said, I have found the Gotoh 510s not only to be the nicest looking (truly subjective, eh? ;) ) tuners out there, but utterly precise in their movement with zero "gear lash" (mechanical gap between gears) as you turn the key. These are the only machines I can personal trust to tune down to pitch because every micro turn of the key translates to a precise/direct movement of the post. With every other machine I've used in past decades it has just because SOP to tune up to pitch because of gear lash. Because they are so precise in feel/action (and they look seriously purdy in antique gold), I had fitted them to previous Taylors, and even now my "keepers" all have the 510s ...because I'm geeky like that :)
Oh, and to your question, I've personally found the Grovers to be totally average and I'd just assume stick with the Taylor Pings, with the nod going to the Schallers if you're choosing between these two. Bottom line is these 510s are seriously well-machined tuners that you just can't go wrong with ...unless, of course, you prefer the look of others more :D
Edward
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I agree with the others. The Gotoh 510 is the best tuner I've used, but the Taylor tuners are just fine. And they're probably just as good, or better, than the Grovers and Schallers on your list.
Also, like Taylor Girl said, you can save some money by just swapping out the buttons on your current Taylor tuners if you're happy with them and just want aesthetic upgrade.
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I have a Taylor 110 with original stock tuners,
and my guitar easily stays in tune for many days.
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I'm with TaylorGirl on this one, If it's just for aesthetics then get some new buttons from Bill Nichols.
I put rosewood ones on my 714 and they look great.
Craig
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I kept both my Taylor's in open G tuning for a couple of years. The mini was a real pain to adjust the two lowest strings to a full step down. Constantly over shooting perfect tune. Put 510 mini's on it and fixed the problem. I went with satin black and love the looks, feel, and accuracy. Same tuning on the GC, the stock tuning machines worked great. Even going another step down to open F. Never felt that I needed an upgrade on the GC.
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The Taylor machine heads are fine. No need to change unless you really want a different look. The only alternatives I would consider would be Gotoh or Grover. Sadly, Schallers are not so good any more. Please do not buy a Chinese copy to put on your lovely guitar. I guarantee you would be disappointed. Chinese make great food in restaurants and rubbish machine heads in factories.
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My LTDs came with Gotoh 510s. Shortly thereafter the rest of the herd was treated to Gotoh 510s. Makes tuning a joy and looks darn good doing it. ;)
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Thanks to all for your input.
The look I'm after is basically gold tuners with black buttons. I'm going to rock the boat a little and mention that I don't really like the buttons on the Gotoh 510's, so I'm not heading down that road...
What I've done is to kill many birds with 2 stones - I ordered a set of Taylor tuners in GOLD finish, and a set of Schaller M6 ebony buttons (these come with BLACK screws) which I'm assured will perfectly fit the Taylor/Ping tuner (fingers crossed). So the "many birds" I now have (including the original nickel Taylor tuners) are:
- Gold tuner, gold button (gold screw)
- Gold tuner, ebony button, gold screw
- Gold tuner, ebony button, black screw
- Nickel tuner, nickel button (nickel screw)
- Nickel tuner, ebony button, nickel screw
- Nickel tuner, ebony button, black screw
Also
- There's nothing wrong with Taylor tuners - they're perfectly fine, but a bit cheaper than Schaller M6 and a lot cheaper than Gotoh 510
- No fiddling around drilling holes in the head-stock
- I can easily revert to original for resale etc. (or if I just change my mind)
I just ordered the parts today. I'll post some pictures when I fit them...
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I agree that the stock Taylor tuning machines are just fine. I've never changed them out on any of my guitars (Taylor or Martin or Rainsong). However, I work in altered slack-key tunings a lot, mostly lowered, and the 21:1 machine ratios would give finer control. Not to the point of making buying and changing out the parts, but it's on my wish list.
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The gold Taylor tuners will look really nice with ebony buttons.
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Just an option worth mentioning........Bill Nichols rosewood tuner buttons. They are easy to swap out, look and work nice, and are not expensive. Just thought I'd mention it.
http://www.nicholsinlay.com/more/tuner-buttons/
I did this with my GA7. It looks great.
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A bit of a 'sideways' question, but I think still keeping consistent with the original thread: Are the 'standard' branded Taylor tuners better in performance to the unlabeled tuners OEM to the GS Mini? My Mini seems to show a lot of slop in the tuners and I have a set of 'standard' (Taylor branded) tuners. Am I likely to see any kind of improvement from a swap?
Thanks very much.
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I don't play our GS Mini a lot, but I have tuned it up and down a number of times between Open G and Standard. I've never noticed that they had more slop than the regular series tuners. Often when someone here upgrades the tuners on their big Taylor, the removed tuning machines get put on their Mini as an upgrade for it.
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A bit of a 'sideways' question, but I think still keeping consistent with the original thread: Are the 'standard' branded Taylor tuners better in performance to the unlabeled tuners OEM to the GS Mini? My Mini seems to show a lot of slop in the tuners and I have a set of 'standard' (Taylor branded) tuners. Am I likely to see any kind of improvement from a swap?
Thanks very much.
I'm not sure if the standard machine head will fit. The Mini machine heads are a little smaller, and for sure the buttons are a lot smaller. I believe they're both Ping tuners, so my guess is that the fittings are likely to be the same. Unless someone else answers your question, you could swap one over and see if it fits, and if it's any better (it's only a 5 minute job). Try swapping the bottom E - you're less likely to damage the string when you put it back on.
FYI my plan was to swap over my Mini tuners to see if I liked the new look, and then do the same on my 816. But when I noticed they were a different size, I didn't do anything to my Mini and played instead with the 816 ( that's why I can't answer your question). If you're curious to see how the different combinations of machine heads and buttons look, I posted some photo's here (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=7098.0)
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Not sure if the GSm are made by Ping, but my daughter's Mini definitely has sloppy tuners. I found some used Taylor machines that I will eventually mount. So my answer to you is yes, it seems worth doing, especially since they're often found used cheap.
Edward
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I wanted to improve on the standard Mini tuners, so the first thing I did was put on a set of tuners from a full sized Taylor that I had put Gotoh's on. I thought the new tuners were better (less slop, stayed in tune longer), but looked a little large. I then tried changing the tuner buttons. I put the original tuner buttons from the GSmini tuners on the full-sized tuners. They fit, but were a little tight when I later removed them. That improved the looks. I was satisfied with that until I got a good deal (used) on the mini tuners from a Taylor 12-string. They are the same size as the original GSmini tuners, but have the quality of the full-size tuners. I am very satisfied with those. By the way, all of the tuners fit the holes in the headstock with no adjustments.
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A bit of a 'sideways' question, but I think still keeping consistent with the original thread: Are the 'standard' branded Taylor tuners better in performance to the unlabeled tuners OEM to the GS Mini? My Mini seems to show a lot of slop in the tuners and I have a set of 'standard' (Taylor branded) tuners. Am I likely to see any kind of improvement from a swap?
I don't play our GS Mini a lot, but I have tuned it up and down a number of times between Open G and Standard. I've never noticed that they had more slop than the regular series tuners. Often when someone here upgrades the tuners on their big Taylor, the removed tuning machines get put on their Mini as an upgrade for it.
Not sure if the GSm are made by Ping, but my daughter's Mini definitely has sloppy tuners. I found some used Taylor machines that I will eventually mount. So my answer to you is yes, it seems worth doing, especially since they're often found used cheap.
I wanted to improve on the standard Mini tuners, so the first thing I did was put on a set of tuners from a full sized Taylor that I had put Gotoh's on. I thought the new tuners were better (less slop, stayed in tune longer), but looked a little large. I then tried changing the tuner buttons. I put the original tuner buttons from the GSmini tuners on the full-sized tuners. They fit, but were a little tight when I later removed them. That improved the looks. I was satisfied with that until I got a good deal (used) on the mini tuners from a Taylor 12-string. They are the same size as the original GSmini tuners, but have the quality of the full-size tuners. I am very satisfied with those. By the way, all of the tuners fit the holes in the headstock with no adjustments.
I recently did this upgrade/swap on my Mini. Some photo's and comments on this thread (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=7098.0)
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I recently purchased a Wee Lowden with the Schallers and I am not impressed. I am looking to upgrade to Gotoh mini 510's, even though that means drilling new holes. I would not recommend the Schallers.