Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
The Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: Gary0319 on January 01, 2012, 06:33:36 PM
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I just noticed that the Taylor Forum is no longer on the AGF.
Long live the UTGF
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I just noticed that the Taylor Forum is no longer on the AGF.
Long live the UTGF
I saw that too. It was weird seeing it gone but I know that the AGF will continue to do well. I hope that this forum can in a small way fill the void.
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I wonder if all those great posts and years worth of discussions have been added (and would still be searchable) to the General Forum, or were just deleted? I hope they weren't deleted as there was an incredible wealth of information and knowledge there and it would be a terrible shame if it was gone forever.
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Everything is archived and available to view in the general forum.
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It was sad. I logged out and deleted it from my favorites. I had spent 99% of my time on the Taylor subforum, so I feel that the UTGF will be the only forum I really need at this point. Thanks again, Josh!
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Everything is archived and available to view in the general forum.
Good - I am really glad to hear that. Thank you.
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Thats sad , but Happy to be here. It seems the 1st place I ever went on the AGF was the Taylor Guitar Forum , So I'm Still mainly a Taylor player , and will come here more now.
Happy New Year all! ;D
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It is an interesting change but all the threads were archived.....it can still be a good resource just less focused on Taylor.
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Everything is archived and available to view in the general forum.
over 3,400 pages (overall) in it :o
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Thats sad , but Happy to be here. It seems the 1st place I ever went on the AGF was the Taylor Guitar Forum , So I'm Still mainly a Taylor player , and will come here more now.
Happy New Year all! ;D
Ditto. I found AGF because of acquiring a Taylor Guitar. Long live UTGF!
Terry
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On one hand it's sad, but on the other, I have 'met' some great folks there, and found out about UTGF from my activity at AGF, and it's all the cycle of life.
In this new year, I expect to improve at guitar, but more than that, my 6 month old son will learn how to walk and how to talk - and that pretty much beats anything that comes/goes on the internet discussion forums.
:)
-K
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Being painfully honest, I have a little difficulty understanding the wailing and gnashing of teeth. The process was explained in great detail after the group was moved.
Ed
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It's been so long that I can't remember how I found the AGF with the Taylor section. It was nice having a separate Taylor section and not having to wade through all of the other posts. But this place is great, friendly, and quite satisfying.
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Being painfully honest, I have a little difficulty understanding the wailing and gnashing of teeth. The process was explained in great detail after the group was moved.
Ed
JR did give an explanation but it's still disappointing. I'm still hopeful they will re instate the Taylor section.
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It is too bad, alot of good has been left over there and we have the task or recreating it over here. Maybe some new perspectives or ideas will pop out. I see alot of AGF's members beginning to coming aboard and I have been PM'ing some to let them know about this place.
I'm glad Josh, Boone, Cindy, and Michael are working hard to make this a nice place. The rules seem reasonable, I don't agree with all of them but if I want to belong I am going to have to be flexible.
I have been made to feel welcome and a contributing member of this forum and I am thankful that the mod took the time to tell me that. Many other forums just summarily dismiss posts and even member without saying why and it's a bit annoying.
The mods are doing a good job and I thank them for their work.
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i think 2012 will be a 'new era' for Taylor as well -
with the first day of the new year done,
i believe it's already off to a great start :D
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I noticed that Guitar Rodeo is also no longer a sponser on the AGF...that almost hurt as bad to see.
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I noticed that Guitar Rodeo is also no longer a sponser on the AGF...that almost hurt as bad to see.
Wow. Good eye. I hadn't noticed that.
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Being painfully honest, I have a little difficulty understanding the wailing and gnashing of teeth. The process was explained in great detail after the group was moved.
Ed
JR did give an explanation but it's still disappointing. I'm still hopeful they will re instate the Taylor section.
Unless I'm mistaken posting on that whole subject line over there is no longer welcome.
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Being painfully honest, I have a little difficulty understanding the wailing and gnashing of teeth. The process was explained in great detail after the group was moved.
Ed
JR did give an explanation but it's still disappointing. I'm still hopeful they will re instate the Taylor section.
Unless I'm mistaken posting on that whole subject line over there is no longer welcome.
Yes, pretty much anything that references the change or UTGF is immediately locked/deleted.
Kinda harsh, but then again, it's JR's site, and using his 'old girlfriend' analogy, I can kinda understand it because if someone breaks up with "Sally" the last thing they want people asking is "Geez, what happened to Sally? I liked her, she was great!"
I have no crystal ball, but my hunch is that once the issue cools down, or blows over, in several months members at AGF will be allowed to refer others to UTGF just as they can currently do with UMGF or the Guild forum. But right now the wound is fresh and someone's hackles are up.
-K
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Yes, pretty much anything that references the change or UTGF is immediately locked/deleted.
Kinda harsh, but then again, it's JR's site, and using his 'old girlfriend' analogy, I can kinda understand it because if someone breaks up with "Sally" the last thing they want people asking is "Geez, what happened to Sally? I liked her, she was great!"
I have no crystal ball, but my hunch is that once the issue cools down, or blows over, in several months members at AGF will be allowed to refer others to UTGF just as they can currently do with UMGF or the Guild forum. But right now the wound is fresh and someone's hackles are up.
-K
Unless Sally makes you famous and makes you a lot of money. It makes it a lot easier to look at her every day.
-Dave
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With this comment, I'm representing only myself, not the AGF in any official capacity. In disallowing the promotion of this forum there they are following a very long-established policy of not allowing another forum to build their membership using the AGF's rolls. A good forum shouldn't have to poach members from other forums in order to grow. This policy didn't begin with the UTGF, but rather at least ten years ago. We are not the first or fifth spin off community the TGF/AGF has seen. Just the best! :)
I believe the other AGF spin offs have either imploded or have remained cozy little communities of a few dozen friends who really enjoy the small coffee shop kind of ambiance. There is plenty of room on the net for guitar communities of all descriptions.
cotten
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With this comment, I'm representing only myself, not the AGF in any official capacity. In disallowing the promotion of this forum there they are following a very long-established policy of not allowing another forum to build their membership using the AGF's rolls.
cotten
I think the issue is that the policy is not consistently enforced. There have been numerous times when posters were referred to the "Lets Talk Guild" forum or the UMGF with no censorship from moderators.
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I've found a new playground to play in. Sorry AGF.
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With this comment, I'm representing only myself, not the AGF in any official capacity. In disallowing the promotion of this forum there they are following a very long-established policy of not allowing another forum to build their membership using the AGF's rolls. A good forum shouldn't have to poach members from other forums in order to grow. This policy didn't begin with the UTGF, but rather at least ten years ago. We are not the first or fifth spin off community the TGF/AGF has seen. Just the best! :)
I believe the other AGF spin offs have either imploded or have remained cozy little communities of a few dozen friends who really enjoy the small coffee shop kind of ambiance. There is plenty of room on the net for guitar communities of all descriptions.
cotten
Thanks very much cotton for your VERY helpful post. I have posted on the "intertubes" since the time you had to know Unix to get online and have never had a post blocked in 17 years until I stumbled blindly into the situation. I feel much better now. Incidentally I like the new scheme over there where all the posts are part of the search. I had trouble finding things a second time as I frequently couldn't remember which subboard to search.
It will be fun to see what goes on at the official Taylor Talk forum when it begins and it will be cool when we can openly refer guitar enthusiasts to any source of information.
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J.R. made the focus of his web site to be more inclusive of all brands as it hasn't been the Taylor AGF for a long time. Although I'm not happy about his decision to delete the Taylor section, I will certainly respect it. Perhaps back then there was a need to establish a forum for all acoustic guitars, but since there are many web site forums for specific brands, there was still a need for a Taylor Guitar forum. The change was made and it was completely out of our control so let's move on from the previous Taylor hang-out and enjoy our new Taylor forum. :)
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I went clicking on the other forum looking for Taylor Guitar Forum but couldn't find it :(
Wonder how many here that doesn't own a Taylor yet.
Or am I the only one, will I be kicked out :D
or will 2012 be the year that I finally own one ;)
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I went clicking on the other forum looking for Taylor Guitar Forum but couldn't find it :(
Wonder how many here that doesn't own a Taylor yet.
Or am I the only one, will I be kicked out :D
or will 2012 be the year that I finally own one ;)
Although this is obviously a forum for Taylor owners/enthusiasts, I don't think anyone would 'kick you out' for not owning a Taylor yet, or even not owning one anymore.
I frequent some motorcycle forums, and quite often someone ends up selling their ____ to buy a ____ and yet they stick around and remain welcome, because we are all friends here, this isn't a competition. :)
If you don't yet own a Taylor but you hope to, then by all means you are welcome here!
Pull up a chair, make yourself cozy and read up!
Oh, and when you do buy yourself a Taylor please post pix!
:D
-Kris
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I went clicking on the other forum looking for Taylor Guitar Forum but couldn't find it :(
Wonder how many here that doesn't own a Taylor yet.
Or am I the only one, will I be kicked out :D
or will 2012 be the year that I finally own one ;)
You'll not be asked to leave, I'm sure of that.
And.........when you get ready to make your first Taylor purchase, this would be a good place to post a "Want To Buy" ad in the classifieds. I'm sure you would find a well cared for Taylor at a good price.
Welcome,
Gary
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I saw it yesterday and was just glad that UTGF is here!! Did I read that Taylor was starting its own forum??
I appreciate all the great comments and ideas that you all post here and all that was posted on AGF, as I followed that forum for a while before joining. Of course right after joining AGF I heard that that the Taylor topic board was going away...As stated by another member, the Taylor section was almost exclusively my inteterest.
Onward and upward!
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I think the issue is that the policy is not consistently enforced. There have been numerous times when posters were referred to the "Lets Talk Guild" forum or the UMGF with no censorship from moderators.
You're right, of course, but there are at least two things to consider. 1) Neither Let's Talk Guild nor the UMGF are actively seeking to build their forums via invitations, public and/or private, being sent to AGF members, and 2) Since the AGF averages 1,200-1,500+ posts per day, there is no possible way for a tiny group of dedicated volunteers, each of whom has a very full life away from a computer, to consistently enforce every forum rule. The members are a huge help in spotting and reporting potential problems.
One other comment, if I may. Encouraging a forum's members to abide by the rules to which they agreed as a condition for membership is not exactly "censorship," though I suppose it could be seen that way by those who have decided they no longer wish to keep that commitment.
cotten
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Encouraging a forum's members to abide by the rules to which they agreed as a condition for membership is not exactly "censorship," though I suppose it could be seen that way by those who have decided they no longer wish to keep that commitment.
cotten
I did not mean censorship in a negative way. I was only referring to the activity of deleting posts.
I would add though that references to Lets Talk guild and the UMGT are so common on the AGF that I doubt many folks see the references as breaking the rules. I don't believe I ever saw an instance where there was a deleted post because of the references.
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You're right, of course, but there are at least two things to consider. 1) Neither Let's Talk Guild nor the UMGF are actively seeking to build their forums via invitations, public and/or private, being sent to AGF members, and 2) Since the AGF averages 1,200-1,500+ posts per day, there is no possible way for a tiny group of dedicated volunteers, each of whom has a very full life away from a computer, to consistently enforce every forum rule. The members are a huge help in spotting and reporting potential problems.
cotten
I just have two comments:
1) After reading the rules over at the AGF, I see no specific rule stating that the discussion of other web forums is prohibited. I tried to read carefully, but I certainly could have missed it (Did I???). Otherwise the only thing I see is this: "THE BOTTOM LINE The Staff reserve the right to delete or edit any posts." This would easily justify the arbitrary nature by which some posts are allowed and others are deleted.
2) While I agree that under typical circumstances, taking advantage of the membership rolls of one forum in order to build the membership of a second forum could be considered unsavory, I believe this situation to be little different. Let's Talk Guild and the UMGF were never the central reason for the existence of the AGF. To my mind, it's like going to your favorite coffee shop and finding that it's gone, but it really hasn't closed down. It just moved a few miles down the road, but no one left a sign. If I wasn't lucky enough to actually SEE a post on the AGF pointing to the UTGF (before Jan 1st), I'm might feel like the rug had been pulled out from under me right now. Who's to say that all infrequent AGF Taylor forum visitors had recently visited before Jan 1st? If they simply let the changeover follow its natural coarse, I'm sure all the Taylor fanatics would eventually find a new home and any links pointing to this forum or any other Taylor forum would eventually become more and more infrequent.
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Hi everyone! Sorry for my abscence, I've been out of town and won't be back until late Friday. AGF discussion is fine as long as it doesn't pit us vs them. I hope you all keep your AGF membership. I know there seems to be confusion with bashing another forum vs discussing another forum. Here's the bottom line: just be respectful. :)
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There is a thread specifically about this over there and this was my response...
"Personally I disagree with the decision. I have a Guild and a semi-regular participant in the Let's Talk Guild forum which is dedicated to Guild guitars. Other brands are discussed as well, but it's interesting to observe the variety of posts related specifically to Guild and due to the focus on Guild guitars, there is a plethora of experience. Not that there isn't here - there is vast expertise on this forum as well and I find myself spending quite a bit of time here too, but the reason I initially joined this group was because I bought a Taylor and was looking for the same experience that I enjoy for my Guild.
Jim"
I will have to admit, however, that there are still active discussions on a variety of Taylor subject. Never-the-less I stand by my opinion and I am glad the there is the UTGF! I remain a fairly regular participant over "there" as well, but I imagine this will become the place where most of the Taylor expertise resides (or maybe on the Taylor site).
Jim
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Hi everyone! Sorry for my abscence, I've been out of town and won't be back until late Friday. AGF discussion is fine as long as it doesn't pit us vs them. I hope you all keep your AGF membership. I know there seems to be confusion with bashing another forum vs discussing another forum. Here's the bottom line: just be respectful. :)
I wholeheartedly agree! And since the forum owner gives latitude, and Rule #3 does as well, then I think that pretty much sums up where the admin of this forum should stand in regards to any type of "AGF-specific censorship" across the board. I believe we can respectfully voice the feelings we have about what we may not have fully agreed with "over there" and how we can do it "better" (as relative and personal-perspective driven as that is), or at least in a more productive manner, over here without bashing or pitting us vs them. jjr's post clearly indicates the desire to move forward in self-moderated freedom, and I say AMEN brother! ;D
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I noticed that Guitar Rodeo is also no longer a sponser on the AGF...that almost hurt as bad to see.
I noticed that too and was sad. I know it took a while for Jim to be a sponsor there so it was sad to see him go.
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this is based on how i feel personally ('takes moderator cap off') -
i think that now that the AGF truly is the AGF, with all wood acoustic steel string guitars
that can be discussed in one area, rather than having different brands in separate subforums,
along with luthier/smaller builds, carbon fiber, nylon, electric & other stringed instruments
imho, the AGF works because they do what is in the best interest for their forum &
the moderators/admin on the AGF do what is right for their forum as a whole -
there are times when i have not agreed with their decisions, but i respect them &
their judgment & they have built a successful forum ... hope 2012 will be great for all :)
('puts mod cap back on')
that is all ;)
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this is based on how i feel personally ('takes moderator cap off') -
i think that now that the AGF truly is the AGF, with all wood acoustic steel string guitars
that can be discussed in one area, rather than having different brands in separate subforums,
along with luthier/smaller builds, carbon fiber, nylon, electric & other stringed instruments
...
('puts mod cap back on')
that is all ;)
I think that overall that is a good thing. But like Martin, Guild and others, it is nice to have a brand-specific forum as well.
And this place is GREAT! ;D ;D
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...To my mind, it's like going to your favorite coffee shop and finding that it's gone, but it really hasn't closed down. It just moved a few miles down the road, but no one left a sign...
To me, the coffee shop didn't close, they just decided to no longer have a private room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts. The menu is exactly the same, and that coffee shop is very much open for business.
That said, I realize that there are some of us chocolate cream with sprinkles lovers who prefer having a private dining room just for us. Nothing wrong with that - there's plenty of room for all! I appreciate the effort it takes to provide just such a place a couple of blocks down the street, and make sure it has just the right kind of friendly, helpful atmosphere. :)
cotten
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To me, the coffee shop didn't close, they just decided to no longer have a private room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts. The menu is exactly the same, and that coffee shop is very much open for business.
...And if any of the patrons of said coffee shop felt kind enough to share with you that there actually still is a place that has a room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts... it would be nice if they were permitted to share that knowledge. How many folks are still sitting in the old coffee shop wishing that there was still a special room in which they could enjoy their chocolate cream donuts with sprinkles? I wholeheartedly agree that there's nothing wrong with such a dining establishment. That's why I feel that there should be nothing wrong with talking about it, even in another coffee shop.
Whew... that's a belabored analogy!! ;D
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Taking the donut analogy in a slightly different view, one must consider the extremely high volume of posts over there and how quickly posts scroll to the next page or further.
The Taylor subforum was not a separate room, it was a second order/pickup window for donuts with sprinkles.
I'll explain.
The Taylor subforum was the 2nd most active, and by eliminating it now all members stand in the same bakery line with everyone else whether they want sprinkles or not, and EVERYONE has to wade through the 'donut menu' (posts of interest) looking for the flavor they prefer. Then the baker has to find the donuts with sprinkles, but they're moving so fast on the conveyor all he can grab is a bagel, which he hands to the customer and says "it's basically the same". :o
It's not about having an 'elite' spot for Taylor fanboy's, it should be about a forum's leadership recognizing the volume and theme of posts and sticking them in subforums so as to enhance everyone's experience at the site.
Really, in many ways it makes more sense to have a Taylor subforum at an acoustic guitar forum, than it does to have an electric subforum. This is just my opinion, of course. AGF can do whatever they feel is best for AGF, I have no hard feelings, I just don't like it.
Gotta go, I'm craving pastries for some odd reason! ;)
-K
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To me, the coffee shop didn't close, they just decided to no longer have a private room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts. The menu is exactly the same, and that coffee shop is very much open for business.
...And if any of the patrons of said coffee shop felt kind enough to share with you that there actually still is a place that has a room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts... it would be nice if they were permitted to share that knowledge. How many folks are still sitting in the old coffee shop wishing that there was still a special room in which they could enjoy their chocolate cream donuts with sprinkles? I wholeheartedly agree that there's nothing wrong with such a dining establishment. That's why I feel that there should be nothing wrong with talking about it, even in another coffee shop.
Whew... that's a belabored analogy!! ;D
Not belabored at all... very pertinent. And I totally agree. Hopefully, THIS coffee shop will ALWAYS be a place where said conversations will be allowed to take place without interference and heavy-handed scrutiny from the waitstaff or management. ;)
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Not belabored at all... very pertinent. And I totally agree. Hopefully, THIS coffee shop will ALWAYS be a place where said conversations will be allowed to take place without interference and micro-management from the waitstaff or management. ;)
Hello good-lookin'. My name is Cindy and I'll be your waitress. :)
;)
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Hello good-lookin'. My name is Cindy and I'll be your waitress. :)
;)
Hey Josh, I think you need a "No Solicitation" Rule :o
Gotta watch those Pennsylvania gals.
;D ;D
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I went clicking on the other forum looking for Taylor Guitar Forum but couldn't find it :(
Wonder how many here that doesn't own a Taylor yet.
Or am I the only one, will I be kicked out :D
or will 2012 be the year that I finally own one ;)
You'll not be asked to leave, I'm sure of that.
And.........when you get ready to make your first Taylor purchase, this would be a good place to post a "Want To Buy" ad in the classifieds. I'm sure you would find a well cared for Taylor at a good price.
Welcome,
Gary
Just kiddin'
Sir, would you be posting a "want to sell" ad soon :P
This forum is great, by the time I can purchase my first Taylor, I know the details and specs and what to expect.
cheers
Paul
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Hello good-lookin'. My name is Cindy and I'll be your waitress. :)
;)
Hey Josh, I think you need a "No Solicitation" Rule :o
;D
~ S.
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Hello good-lookin'. My name is Cindy and I'll be your waitress. :)
;)
Hey Josh, I think you need a "No Solicitation" Rule :o
Gotta watch those Pennsylvania gals.
;D ;D
I spent some time watching PA girls... but that was before I was married. (grin)
Ed
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Not belabored at all... very pertinent. And I totally agree. Hopefully, THIS coffee shop will ALWAYS be a place where said conversations will be allowed to take place without interference and micro-management from the waitstaff or management. ;)
Hello good-lookin'. My name is Cindy and I'll be your waitress. :)
;)
This had me laughing out loud... touche!
(in the back of my mind I'm wondering if I should still be wary of that sweet-as-pie waitress who, when I am not looking, might come up and clang me in the back of the head with a cast iron skillet cause she thinks I look like her ex?) ;) That's a joke, people... don't get your dishrags in a twist. ;D
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The other site has been gone for a month now, at least for me. Thanks again Josh!
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The other site has been gone for a month now, at least for me. Thanks again Josh!
c'mon, Boone ...
say it with me, now
'AGF' :)
everything's gonna be alright :D
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...And if any of the patrons of said coffee shop felt kind enough to share with you that there actually still is a place that has a room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts... it would be nice if they were permitted to share that knowledge...
Thanks for going with my rather weak analogy. They all break down at some point! :)
But since we're still toying with the coffee shop idea, consider this. A well established coffee shop decides to no longer offer a private dining room for a particular group of their customers. One of them decides to go down the street and open a new place of business that caters specifically to those customers. Should the original coffee shop then offer free advertising for the other shop, the purpose of which would be to draw customers away from themselves and to the new place?
I'm not much of a business man, but I don't remember seeing McDonalds signs over at Burger King, or signs along the walkway on the Martin Factory tour providing their customers directions to the Taylor Guitar Factory
I know, I know. The use of a business analogy really breaks down at this point. Still, there is that element of advertising here, right? Should one forum that has grown so large that it depends on voluntary income from Charter Members and Sponsors to pay for its operating expenses allow free advertising for a new forum intent on drawing its own members away? The owner of the established forum wisely decided no, he should not allow that. Again, he made that decision at least ten years ago when it was his forum that was called the Taylor Guitar Forum.
I hope this helps everyone to understand the reason the AGF doesn't promote other forums, even a good one like this. If not, I've done my best. I'll not respond in this thread further. I've probably said too much already. Say, anybody think that the pre-revoiced Grand Concerts weren't really all that bad? ;D
cotten
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...Say, anybody think that the pre-revoiced Grand Concerts weren't really all that bad? ;D
cotten
oh ... i think i know the answer to this one ;)
(http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/39431/2513988970081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/14571/2847929030081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
'4th of july pic'
(http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/40673/2774794310081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
i'll try to find some better pics, but in the meantime, if you like maple :D
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=672.0 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=672.0)
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Hmmm... Looks like we now have our official forum food / poll option:
DONUTS!
Look out pizza, here comes a new sweetie into town...
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Hmmm... Looks like we now have our official forum food ...
DONUTS!
... here comes a new sweetie into town...
Cindy ? :o :o :o
;D ;D
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...And if any of the patrons of said coffee shop felt kind enough to share with you that there actually still is a place that has a room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts... it would be nice if they were permitted to share that knowledge...
Thanks for going with my rather weak analogy. They all break down at some point! :)
But since we're still toying with the coffee shop idea, consider this. A well established coffee shop decides to no longer offer a private dining room for a particular group of their customers. One of them decides to go down the street and open a new place of business that caters specifically to those customers. Should the original coffee shop then offer free advertising for the other shop, the purpose of which would be to draw customers away from themselves and to the new place?
I'm not much of a business man, but I don't remember seeing McDonalds signs over at Burger King, or signs along the walkway on the Martin Factory tour providing their customers directions to the Taylor Guitar Factory
I know, I know. The use of a business analogy really breaks down at this point. Still, there is that element of advertising here, right? Should one forum that has grown so large that it depends on voluntary income from Charter Members and Sponsors to pay for its operating expenses allow free advertising for a new forum intent on drawing its own members away? The owner of the established forum wisely decided no, he should not allow that. Again, he made that decision at least ten years ago when it was his forum that was called the Taylor Guitar Forum.
I hope this helps everyone to understand the reason the AGF doesn't promote other forums, even a good one like this. If not, I've done my best. I'll not respond in this thread further. I've probably said too much already. Say, anybody think that the pre-revoiced Grand Concerts weren't really all that bad? ;D
cotten
I'll agree that I don't expect the original coffee shop to put up advertising, like with a sticky, but if you put muzzles on your customers when thay talk about the new place down the street, it also makes it hard for them to swallow your own donuts.
Gary
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The AGF is a valuable resource to anyone owning acoustic guitars, no matter which manufacturer they prefer. When I started playing 3 years ago I found AGF a big help in so many ways. I didn’t own a Taylor then and never imagined I would, I just wanted a place were I could get information about acoustic guitars, from fellow enthusiasts. AGF was just what I wanted and needed; it still fulfils that requirement. When I stopped using AGF, about 2 years ago, I missed it.
The UTGF looks like its going to be a great place for Taylor enthusiasts and I visit the site many times a day, and if I have a problem with one of my none Taylor guitars, I will still feel comfortable asking about it on UTGF; one of the things we have in common is that we are lovers of guitars
There are many members of this forum that have plainly said they value AGF and will continue to participate there, so I do not see how this forum can be seen as a threat to AGF.
I think AGF would gain much kudos if they put a sticky on the forum explaining the removal of the Taylor sub forum and that AGF welcomes lovers of all makes of acoustic guitars. They could then point out that there are other sites such as the UTGF and the Official Taylor Forum (when it starts), just as there are for other acoustic guitar manufacturers.
Using the shop analogy; when a shop I am in has told me they don’t have or stock what I want, but then direct me to somewhere that might have the item, I have always tried to make sure I put some business the way of the first shop at a later date.
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I know, I know. The use of a business analogy really breaks down at this point. Still, there is that element of advertising here, right? Should one forum that has grown so large that it depends on voluntary income from Charter Members and Sponsors to pay for its operating expenses allow free advertising for a new forum intent on drawing its own members away? The owner of the established forum wisely decided no, he should not allow that. Again, he made that decision at least ten years ago when it was his forum that was called the Taylor Guitar Forum.
I've seen this comment quite often and it really bothers me. The implication is that AGF is scraping by because of the charter member income and sponsors. If that is true JR has been doing it wrong for a long time based on what advertisers pay etc. He's making good money on the forum and it is a pretty decent sized business.
Is it wrong to protect that business by not allowing links. Absolutely not. Like you said, McDonalds doesn't have Burger King advertising in its lobby. But to make it look like it is some noble cause that is being pursued is also not honest to the members and visitors.
-Dave
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...And if any of the patrons of said coffee shop felt kind enough to share with you that there actually still is a place that has a room for those who prefer sprinkles on their chocolate cream donuts... it would be nice if they were permitted to share that knowledge...
Thanks for going with my rather weak analogy. They all break down at some point! :)
But since we're still toying with the coffee shop idea, consider this. A well established coffee shop decides to no longer offer a private dining room for a particular group of their customers. One of them decides to go down the street and open a new place of business that caters specifically to those customers. Should the original coffee shop then offer free advertising for the other shop, the purpose of which would be to draw customers away from themselves and to the new place?
I'm not much of a business man, but I don't remember seeing McDonalds signs over at Burger King, or signs along the walkway on the Martin Factory tour providing their customers directions to the Taylor Guitar Factory
I know, I know. The use of a business analogy really breaks down at this point. Still, there is that element of advertising here, right? Should one forum that has grown so large that it depends on voluntary income from Charter Members and Sponsors to pay for its operating expenses allow free advertising for a new forum intent on drawing its own members away? The owner of the established forum wisely decided no, he should not allow that. Again, he made that decision at least ten years ago when it was his forum that was called the Taylor Guitar Forum.
I hope this helps everyone to understand the reason the AGF doesn't promote other forums, even a good one like this. If not, I've done my best. I'll not respond in this thread further. I've probably said too much already. Say, anybody think that the pre-revoiced Grand Concerts weren't really all that bad? ;D
cotten
I'll agree that I don't expect the original coffee shop to put up advertising, like with a sticky, but if you put muzzles on your customers when thay talk about the new place down the street, it also makes it hard for them to swallow your own donuts.
Gary
+1. Very well said.
There are many members of this forum that have plainly said they value AGF and will continue to participate there, so I do not see how this forum can be seen as a threat to AGF.
I think AGF would gain much kudos if they put a sticky on the forum explaining the removal of the Taylor sub forum and that AGF welcomes lovers of all makes of acoustic guitars. They could then point out that there are other sites such as the UTGF and the Official Taylor Forum (when it starts), just as there are for other acoustic guitar manufacturers.
Using the shop analogy; when a shop I am in has told me they don’t have or stock what I want, but then direct me to somewhere that might have the item, I have always tried to make sure I put some business the way of the first shop at a later date.
Also +1. Also VERY well said.
IMO... there are basically 2 choices in a situation like this (again, my view only) -
1) tight-fisted, scowl on your face, unwilling to share or be nice/kind even when you feel you've been wronged = the perception of a scrooge that will likely perpetuate the VERY thing you are trying to aviod (i.e. the loss of members, etc.)
2) open-handed, smile on your face, willing to share and be nice/kind even when you feel you've been wronged = the perception of a benevolent "santa" (for lack of a better term/analogy) that will likely perpetuate the retention of the majority of what you have now (i.e. members, etc.) AND a gaining of more due to a positive and welcoming attitude.
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I know, I know. The use of a business analogy really breaks down at this point. Still, there is that element of advertising here, right? Should one forum that has grown so large that it depends on voluntary income from Charter Members and Sponsors to pay for its operating expenses allow free advertising for a new forum intent on drawing its own members away? The owner of the established forum wisely decided no, he should not allow that. Again, he made that decision at least ten years ago when it was his forum that was called the Taylor Guitar Forum.
I've seen this comment quite often and it really bothers me. The implication is that AGF is scraping by because of the charter member income and sponsors. If that is true JR has been doing it wrong for a long time based on what advertisers pay etc. He's making good money on the forum and it is a pretty decent sized business.
-Dave
Dave, I agree; the CEO incident has made most donuts since that time hard to swallow (I mix and match my analogies well :-).
When someone communicates "We Need You(r Money) To Survive, because You Make This Place What It Is" and then makes decisions that belie that need or reflect that some people's/sponsors'/entities' dollars and wishes are more important than others, it's best to be up front about the change(s). Minimally.
Pertinent to this forum, and hope for the future: Whatever Josh decides, whatever the Mods agree to, I hope he and they think money issues through as thoroughly as possible and present a consistent, logical message throughout. Every forum I've participated in eventually requires increased bandwith and storage space, sometimes sooner than anticipated. Even just continued bandwith costs actual money.
I don't mean to indicate that someone's donating a dollar, or hundreds of dollars, entitles them to have a "say" over and against the forum owner's/chief administrator's desires.
However, it would be a shame here for those overseeing the bigger decisions here were to communicate, "We need *you* to make this place great!" then make decisions without the input of those already invested, and counter to what they had invested in, then tell them, "It's a good decision, you'll see, I don't see what the problem is, this is not your house, and also don't talk about it."
In as many words.
Maybe just let us know if and when this turns into a for-profit venture? ;)
~ S.
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I'm going to allow this discussion for now, but we are walking a very fine line. Let's all please keep in mind Josh's request which comes from reply #33 of this current thread you are viewing:
AGF discussion is fine as long as it doesn't pit us vs them..
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go and check on that good-lookin' guy and hope I don't spill any coffee on him if he decides he needs a refill! ;)
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I would like it if this "coffee house" stays small enough so that when the moderators have to block a post for policy reason they can at least privately notify the poster the reason for the action (instead of leaving him hanging and wondering if the post actually when through).
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I would like it if this "coffee house" stays small enough so that when the moderators have to block a post for policy reason they can at least privately notify the poster the reason for the action (instead of leaving him hanging and wondering if the post actually when through).
Any time a post is edited by a moderator, it will show up at the bottom of the post as edited by with a date, time, and the mod's name. There is no way for us to modify other people's post without this showing. Over on the AGF, when we edit our own posts, there is an option to list the reason why the post was edited. Unfortunately this forum doesn't have that option so any references to why a post was edited is strictly voluntary on the mods' part. It's something I am trying to do now whenever I edit any posts by other members. :)
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Oh, there goes my reason to visit that site. ::)
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I'm going to allow this discussion for now, but we are walking a very fine line. Let's all please keep in mind Josh's request which comes from reply #33 of this current thread you are viewing:
AGF discussion is fine as long as it doesn't pit us vs them..
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go and check on that good-lookin' guy and hope I don't spill any coffee on him if he decides he needs a refill! ;)
Point taken... and thanks for the leniency at this point. :D (Just leave the frying pan in the kitchen.) ;)
Just so you know (a general you, not just Cindy), I feel like this thread has been entertaining, informative, well thought, well written, funny, serious, and all-in-all a VERY worthwhile read. These kinds of posts (especially at a brand new, maturing and formative forum) are so important and so beneficial to the individuals who choose to post, and I believe, to all the others who only read through. IMHO, this thread is what a GREAT forum is all about.
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I'm going to allow this discussion for now, but we are walking a very fine line. Let's all please keep in mind Josh's request which comes from reply #33 of this current thread you are viewing:
AGF discussion is fine as long as it doesn't pit us vs them..
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go and check on that good-lookin' guy and hope I don't spill any coffee on him if he decides he needs a refill! ;)
Point taken... and thanks for the leniency at this point. :D (Just leave the frying pan in the kitchen.) ;)
Just so you know (a general you, not just Cindy), I feel like this thread has been entertaining, informative, well thought, well written, funny, serious, and all-in-all a VERY worthwhile read. These kinds of posts (especially at a brand new, maturing and formative forum) are so important and so beneficial to the individuals who choose to post, and I believe, to all the others who only read through. IMHO, this post is what a GREAT forum is all about.
I'd just lilke to add that I'm glad that Cindy let this continue (with some good guidence). It's good to be able to find our collective "voice" on these close to the line topics. These early discussions will go a long way to establishing the tenor of the entire forum.
Thanks....
Gary
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Pertinent to this forum, and hope for the future: Whatever Josh decides, whatever the Mods agree to, I hope he and they think money issues through as thoroughly as possible and present a consistent, logical message throughout. Every forum I've participated in eventually requires increased bandwith and storage space, sometimes sooner than anticipated. Even just continued bandwith costs actual money.
I don't mean to indicate that someone's donating a dollar, or hundreds of dollars, entitles them to have a "say" over and against the forum owner's/chief administrator's desires.
However, it would be a shame here for those overseeing the bigger decisions here were to communicate, "We need *you* to make this place great!" then make decisions without the input of those already invested, and counter to what they had invested in, then tell them, "It's a good decision, you'll see, I don't see what the problem is, this is not your house, and also don't talk about it."
In as many words.
Maybe just let us know if and when this turns into a for-profit venture? ;)
~ S.
You are correct that it does take money to run forums (done it for years). What is being charged for a sponsorship for one month would pay for our forum (about 2000 visitors a day and a lot of people reading posts) would pay for a year of our hosting. Multiply that times the number of high end sponsors and then some lower level sponsors and all the charter members and you have a nice little business. Not to say that there is anything wrong with that. But is not a noble cause that everyone needs to pitch in on.
As to the members having a voice. You do, you choose to come and read and participate. You are a click in the marketing machine (one of x #of visitors a day that you can sell your sponsors on). If you don't come back, your click goes away and the renewal for the ads may not garner as much $$$. Sometimes things don't make sense in the smaller picture that members typically see. Was Taylor putting pressure on to remove the forum or was that a convenient excuse? If that was it, why did they welcome this forum? Did it just not fit into the bigger plan?
We had something similar happen when we changed forum software about 8 years ago. A bunch of people were very upset because they liked the old layout and forums a lot, the new forums were just much simpler for us to maintain and we could sell more ads to pay the bills. We lost 100 or so members in the short term but gained a more modern site and doubled the membership in the long run. I didn't think it was as huge deal as it was to some.
-Dave
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Personally, I see the removal of that single brand specific sub-forum on the AGF as a logical step in it's evolution to becoming THE acoustic guitar forum; a coming of age if you will. I'm also glad that it has, by default, bolstered the development of the UTGF... which is shaping up to be a very pleasant place to hang out and talk to a great bunch of people in a cosier environment with a somewhat more focused commonality! As far as I'm concerned... it's all good.
For what it's worth I also think the restraint that JR has shown in exploiting the commercial potential of the AGF is to be applauded. I doubt very much that the returns do much more than cover the costs.
Bong
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I suspect this forum will see an influx of new members because of this.
It's why I'm here. I'm not interested in reading about Martins and Guilds and Breedloves and MacPheresons. I just want to read about Taylor, and I'll be dipped if I'm going to cull through pages of inane posts to accomplish that.
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I suspect this forum will see an influx of new members because of this.
It's why I'm here. I'm not interested in reading about Martins and Guilds and Breedloves and MacPheresons. I just want to read about Taylor, and I'll be dipped if I'm going to cull through pages of inane posts to accomplish that.
Same here.. BUT I do like to read about Martins, Blueridge, etc etc, BUT as you know they have their own sites and I can just go to the respective site, and as you say not have to wade thru a lot of info that is of no interest to me.. looking forward to this site as it grows.....
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I just want to read about Taylor, and I'll be dipped if I'm going to cull through pages of inane posts to accomplish that.
I think you'll find your fair share of 'inane' postings on pretty much any guitar site. Give this forum time & you'll see what I mean. ;)
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I would like it if this "coffee house" stays small enough so that when the moderators have to block a post for policy reason they can at least privately notify the poster the reason for the action (instead of leaving him hanging and wondering if the post actually when through).
Any time a post is edited by a moderator, it will show up at the bottom of the post as edited by with a date, time, and the mod's name. There is no way for us to modify other people's post without this showing. Over on the AGF, when we edit our own posts, there is an option to list the reason why the post was edited. Unfortunately this forum doesn't have that option so any references to why a post was edited is strictly voluntary on the mods' part. It's something I am trying to do now whenever I edit any posts by other members. :)
Thanks Cindy your are doing great. I don't my posts being edited as required by the moderator (in case I forget the rules). I didn't like it when my post was disappeared on AGF without explanation. Now I know it was because it contained a link to here and again thank "cotton" for explaining the reason.
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I'm glad this forum is letting us have a nice discussion. I have been visiting the AGF and I find it frustrating that alot of negativity comes out in some of the threads - some of the comments even go as far to say good riddence to us Taylor people - not nice at all. Seems they could be a little more open minded. I love Taylors but I know there are other great guitars out there as well.
I have been to 2 road shows (one in VA and one in FL) and the thing that really struck me was at both shows, whenever anyone brought up another manufacturer the Taylor guys were quick to say they have great respect and admiration for the other builders. To me that shows maturity and foresight, if I go to a Taylor show and all they do is bash the other brands I would not think very much of them (Taylor).
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I just want to read about Taylor, and I'll be dipped if I'm going to cull through pages of inane posts to accomplish that.
I think you'll find your fair share of 'inane' postings on pretty much any guitar site. Give this forum time & you'll see what I mean. ;)
ha, Ha, HA ... YES!
you are correct, sir :D
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=39.msg1328#msg1328 (http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=39.msg1328#msg1328)
hi Kevin,
WELCOME !
glad you made it to the party
good to see you here :)
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I was at the AGF when it was the UTGF. I was sad to see the Taylor subsection go but I always thought that it was the logical step. I am glad this place is here because I do enjoy the "Taylor only" focus of this place. I also love other brands and I will remain at the AGF as well as posting here. Its the best of both worlds.
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I was at the AGF when it was the UTGF. I was sad to see the Taylor subsection go but I always thought that it was the logical step. I am glad this place is here because I do enjoy the "Taylor only" focus of this place. I also love other brands and I will remain at the AGF as well as posting here. Its the best of both worlds.
Andromeda...I couldn't have said it better. The UTGF was never meant to compete with the great AGF...but merely to create a replacement for the Taylor sub-forum. I love being members of both forums as well.! ;D
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Keep in mind as this discussion goes forward that we do not need to discuss any of AGF's policies, or what they are saying about other forums. This thread is about the end of an era; not how it came about, why it came about or what we think of AGF.
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Sounds like its time now to go and actually PLAY guitars instead of jabbering on about this guitar forum or that guitar forum......
Life's too short.
::)
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This thread has run its course and will now be locked. For future reference, if you have any complaints about the AGF, this forum is not the place to discuss them. Please post your complaints about the AGF on their forum or to the appropriate people over there.
If you have any complaints about this forum, please let us know via the PM system. Any further complaints or grievances aired on this forum will simply be deleted without explanation. Thank you.