Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Topic started by: fdesalvo on December 29, 2011, 01:43:37 PM
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Coming from the electric camp recently, I have been devouring as much factual and anecdotal material as possible concerning acoustics. One thing I recently read struck me - some contend that, as acoustics age, their tone evolves.
Case in point: My friend's 6 year old Taylor 414CE sounds beautiful - very rich overtones/harmonics, thick and sparkling, almost sounds like it breathes when strummed - it looks that way, as well; the finish and binding on the guitar have ambered nicely, but I don't recall how it sounded when it was new. It would be interesting to go back in time to have a listen.
Have you guys noticed anything similar? My 2011 414CE has about 12 hours on it and it's tight and bright sounding. Wondering if it will open up a bit as the years wear on.
Best,
Frank
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If you haven't already, you should definately read the lastest issue of Wood & Steel.
Bob Taylor has a small note about tone and aging. I believe it's page 5.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/woodandsteel/issues/ws_fall_2011.pdf (http://www.taylorguitars.com/woodandsteel/issues/ws_fall_2011.pdf)
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Hi Frank! Any type of solid topped guitar will get better with age as long as its taken care of. Your guitar will settle in a bit and the sound should start to darken slightly. I've heard others say that the sap that stays in the wood, over the years starts to crystallize helping it sound better as well.
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Awesome info, guys! :o
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Coming from the electric camp recently, I have been devouring as much factual and anecdotal material as possible concerning acoustics. One thing I recently read struck me - some contend that, as acoustics age, their tone evolves.
Case in point: My friend's 6 year old Taylor 414CE sounds beautiful - very rich overtones/harmonics, thick and sparkling, almost sounds like it breathes when strummed - it looks that way, as well; the finish and binding on the guitar have ambered nicely, but I don't recall how it sounded when it was new. It would be interesting to go back in time to have a listen.
Have you guys noticed anything similar? My 2011 414CE has about 12 hours on it and it's tight and bright sounding. Wondering if it will open up a bit as the years wear on.
Best,
Frank
hi Frank,
good to see you here :)
WELCOME !
i also feel that the tone of an acoustic guitar (solid top or all solid wood)
can indeed change as the guitar is played more & as time passes
my take on it is, & if i'm incorrect or completely misinformed i am certain that i will be corrected,
is that over time resins within the wood crystallize & with continued playing, the vibration that
the woods are subjected to 'break down' those resins & the woods are able to vibrate more freely -
the guitar can become more responsive dynamically (low end gets deeper, mids warm up &
get 'fuller' & so on, but how perceptible this change is, depends solely on the player & the guitar
in the short term, some feel that a guitar needs to 'warm up' after it has not been played in a while,
similar to a tube amp, & a discernable difference in tone may be noted after a relatively brief period of time
it is likely that the age & playing time your friend's 414ce has would be a contributing factor to it's tone -
darkening of the binding & the woods tells me that the guitar has seen a good bit of
UV light & perhaps it's been 'played-out' quite in a bit in various environments & settings
also, if your friend's guitar was produced around the fall of 06, it should have the Standard II
forward-shifted bracing pattern with relief rout, which would be same bracing as your 2011 -
if it is an 05 or early 06 model, it would most likely have the 'Classic' bracing pattern
here's an easy way to tell, the next time both of you are playing your guitars
the blue line is the second knuckle of my index finger when the tip is touching the 'x'
on the Standard II bracing pattern, the x-brace is closer to the soundhole
Pre-Standard II (on a 98 414) Standard II (on a 06 914ceLTD
(http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/44739/2403279440081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)(http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/46511/2436171280081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
as you put more playing time on your guitar, i believe it will gain depth & warmth ('loosen up' a bit)
please make yourself comfortable & enjoy the place :)
congrats on the 414ce :D
play on ;D
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How do you know that type of stuff???
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I cannot speak for others and their guitars but I will attest that my '04 has definitely matured in sound.
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As you said, "some contend" - whether or not guitars improve in sound as they age (some call this "opening up") is a source of much drama and debate, as well as a lot of great sales pitches.
Personally, I'm skeptical, though I don't think such a thing is impossible either. All that vibrating could very well alter the guitar somehow, though for the most part I think the question is: does your guitar open up at the same rate that your playing improves over the years? ;)
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Coming from the electric camp recently, I have been devouring as much factual and anecdotal material as possible concerning acoustics. One thing I recently read struck me - some contend that, as acoustics age, their tone evolves.
Case in point: My friend's 6 year old Taylor 414CE sounds beautiful - very rich overtones/harmonics, thick and sparkling, almost sounds like it breathes when strummed - it looks that way, as well; the finish and binding on the guitar have ambered nicely, but I don't recall how it sounded when it was new. It would be interesting to go back in time to have a listen.
Have you guys noticed anything similar? My 2011 414CE has about 12 hours on it and it's tight and bright sounding. Wondering if it will open up a bit as the years wear on.
Best,
Frank
Hi Frank.
New Taylors do tend to sound a little tight at first but will open up fairly quickly and keep getting better from there on. Bottom line, if you like your Taylor now you will like it even more as it starts to open up.
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One of the things I remember Bob Taylor saying is that a benefit of a 12-fret guitar is that it sounds like a guitar that has been opening up for years. I was pretty skeptical of this -- right up until the moment I played one. There's a warmth and maturity to the 12-fret sound that my 814 still hasn't attained, and may never. And the 12-fret sounded that way from Day 1.
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As you said, "some contend" - whether or not guitars improve in sound as they age (some call this "opening up") is a source of much drama and debate, as well as a lot of great sales pitches.
Personally, I'm skeptical, though I don't think such a thing is impossible either. All that vibrating could very well alter the guitar somehow, though for the most part I think the question is: does your guitar open up at the same rate that your playing improves over the years? ;)
in terms of the vibrations from the top,
i'd like to think it'd make a difference ???
http://tonerite.com/guitar/vmchk (http://tonerite.com/guitar/vmchk)
as for yout last question, i hope not, as my guitars would likely be
'toneless', which they pretty much are now, resting in their cases :(
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Loving this thread -
Thanks, Michael and peeps!
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Guitars all open up at their own pace. I had a Koa that changed significantly over the course of a year and other guitars that sound very similar to the day they were purchased. Ted is right about Taylors, they are very tight when you get them and they change significantly over the first year. Adi topped guitars are at their worst on their first day with you (per Taylor themselves) and break in and age over a long period of time.
The best thing is that the only way to find out is to play the heck out of your guitar. Record it now and then record it 6 months from now and see the change.
-Dave
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Michael,
In reference to your "bracing gauge" shown in the photos above..... Is that a Metric finger, a Standard Western finger, or even an English finger gauge? Where can I get one? Is the blue line durable or glow in the dark possibly? Is there a warranty? Excellent tool. Looks like it may even have other uses you are not even mentioning.... :)
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Loving this thread -
Thanks, Michael and peeps!
thenks for posting this thread, Frank :)
great question & i'm glad you asked it
have a
HAPPY NEW YEAR !
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^ Same to you and your fam!
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but wait, there's more ;)
Michael,
In reference to your "bracing gauge" shown in the photos above..... Is that a Metric finger, a Standard Western finger, or even an English finger gauge? Where can I get one? Is the blue line durable or glow in the dark possibly? Is there a warranty? Excellent tool. Looks like it may even have other uses you are not even mentioning.... :)
hi Jim,
it is a standard Western Amercan Asian South Eastern finger gauge
extremely difficult to find (it's an ancient secret, sort of like Tide was)
the blue line is kind of sort of like what the NFL uses to mark yardage on tv -
the same, but different & then again not so much (ok, it's nothing like that)
durablity & glow options sold separately - additional shipping & handling fees apply
uhh ... i wish i had a replacement warranty for the digit to the right of it
it is extremely sensitive, meticulously accurate & scientifically calibrated
it's a multi-tasker - it slices, it dices, it chops, it purees, it liquifies -
officially licensed as a certifiable, i mean certified, lethal weapon
if you call now, we'll double your order (this offer is not valid in all states) -
please consult your county & jurisdiction ordinances before ordering
supplies are limited, operators are waiting to take your order. call NOW ...
oops ... they just sold the last one (sorry no rainchecks) ;) :) :D ;D
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Michael,
Thanks for your reply. I thought that was probably the case-that they were sold out or no longer available. I was hoping operators were standing by, and my credit card was ready if they were. No problem, I have set up a search function on eBay and if any used ones come on the market, I will pounce.
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Michael - great pix and very informative, simple way to check to see which bracing a guitar has!
Regarding Aging and or opening up, I think I read that Mark Allen was going to try one of those devices (sorry - the name escapes me) that induces a vibration into the guitar for two weeks and report back with whether or not he saw any effect towards his new guitar opening up. Looking forward to hearing what he finds out.
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hi John,
i believe you're right, that mark is using it on his Koa LTD (ToneRIte) ... cool 8)
i was curious also, if it is recommended to change the strings before or after (or both),
depending on the initial string condition & the amount of time that it is used (& level)
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Bob Taylor says it's the wood aging."Tonerite says it's the strings vibrating. I say it's both.
I send a different one offshore for 28 days w/my older son.He beats the crap out of them,I change strings & he plays his 2004 410ce L7 while he's home(when he's not deer hunting).
That works pretty well for us.
Steve
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Time has treated my maple guitar very good. At first when I bought it, it sounded flat when played unplugged. Fast forward two years, it sounds amazingly full and good to my ears unplugged. Age definitely affects the tone.
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Different from wife's (some of them anyway) the guitar gets sweeter as it gets older! :o >:(
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FWIW, the "maturing" of tone is not limited to acoustic guitars or solid wood instruments. I have experienced the same effect with laminated hollowbody and semi-hollowbody guitars as well. I don't know why it happens but I know for a fact that it happened with my ES 175 as well as my ES 335.
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Yes, this thread has certainly generated a lot of interest and rightly so. I'll add my 2 cents here...I bought a 1995 612c new at that time. After about three years I noticed a clearly discernible change in its tone. The bass and low midrange became fuller, it had more punch, and it just sounded better to me. That guitar is now 17 years old and sounds very nice. My son has it in Arizona (yes, he knows to keep it well humidified).
My 2008 RT2 has gradually matured, tone-wise, over the last three years as well. I have already noticed a change (for the better) in the tone of my new RT2.
Sad as it is to say, I don't think my playing has improved over the years, so that's not likely a reason for the changes. I have no idea why this occurs, and other than purely for academic interest, I really don't care. It is great though that acoustic guitars, at least well-built ones, go through this process. I'm hanging on to my guitars. The best is yet to come.
In a recent W&S, Bob Taylor was responding to a question about this very topic - he was talking about people who buy and sell guitars without keeping them long enough for this phenomenon to occur. He says it takes at least 8 to 10 years for this to really develop. I tend to use this fact as an excuse to buy new guitars now before I get so old I won't be able to play (or hear) them very well. I'd insert a smiley emoticon here if I could figure out how. Any one have any helpful suggestions.....
Bill
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.... I tend to use this fact as an excuse to buy new guitars now before I get so old I won't be able to play (or hear) them very well. I'd insert a smiley emoticon here if I could figure out how. Any one have any helpful suggestions.....
Bill
For the desire to buy another guitar or for the emoticon? :)
...that's a colon with a close parentheses, or use a semicolon for the "wink" ...I can't help you with the wanting guitars bit ;)
FWIW on the Toneright, I had read in their literature that it says the owner may need to repeat the application on the guitar. Wait. If the vibration is supposed to help "open up" the guitar's fibres etc and mature the tone, then why (or how?!!!) could the guitar revert and require another application??? Sorry. I remain a skeptic on that device.
Edward
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I'm a believer in the opening up of guitars (especially the bass notes on bright guitars). I have a 1978 Fender acoustic painfully bright that did not change much in 22 years of storage with no playing. After a couple years of daily playing it got a lot fuller and mellow sounding. I'm deliberately giving my new 414 a bit of strong strumming every day to help it along. I'm making that box vibrate using a pick, not just some gentle bare finger dabbling.