Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: esmitty on November 18, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
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I'm in the market for something other than what I am currently playing. Don't get me wrong, my guitar is very nice, but as of late I have had some comfort issues, and yes I'm sure that it isn't a posture issue.
What I'm experiencing is pain in my chording hand. I play (finger, flat pick, and strum) at church, and many of the chords that I play are open style barre chords much like guys like Paul Baloche plays, not to mention about everything else. The pain is in the hand first and some second knuckles of my pinkie, ring, and middle fingers. Like I said, I play these chords a lot, but this last Sunday was the first time that I noticed it while play just regular chords.
That all being said, I don't have this pain while playing my Les Paul with the 60's neck or my Telecaster with the soft V neck. Now, I'm no expert, but my dumbed down reasoning tells me that the Tele is easier because I put 9's on it and the fatter neck helps because it is easier to press down on the strings with the leverage that happens because of the bigger girth. Again not an expert, but I have come to conclude that the Les Paul is easier on the hands because of it's lower action, the Tele and Alvarez are just a smidgeon higher, and the shorter scale length. I'm no expert though.
I guess what I'm wondering is this, and right now I'm very confused, what are my best options? I thought I had this figured out and after over thinking it, I still don't know what to do. Of course I know that playing them all is my best bet, but I'm hoping that someone else has some experience in this and can help out.
What I was thinking is that a 414ce or even a 514ce would be the answer but realize that a shorter scale like one of the 12's might be helpful, but then started over thinking it on nut width and heck there is the whole neck profile thing to add to the confusion.
Anyhow, any thoughts would be helpful.
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If you're into Taylors, you might try and play a Grand Concert model, 312, 412, 512,...depending on wood preference.
It is a short scale guitar, smaller body sized.
I have 11's on my 412, Custom Lights. I'm not much of a player but it's definitely the easiest guitar I own to do bar chords.
Might also try and play a twelve fret guitar, I have one, not a Taylor and I like it a lot. The geometry is different, I like it.
I always wonder what a nice 512, twelve fret would be like with a Spruce top,...not Cedar. It might be Nirvana for me.
Rick
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I want a 12th fret guitar, but that is a whole different story. ;)
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Aging here (not to say you are) and I've experienced hand/wrist issues from time to time, typically from extended playing. Take that seriously ...don't try to "tough it out" as you could turn a minor problem into a major one. At the risk of stating the obvious, pain is talking to you, so listen up or you risk even more later.
So that said, ice and ibuprofin may help with internal swelling/muscle issues (this from my Dr, not just personal advice ;) ). But then address the real issue which is likely your hand stress. It may be time to go to lights on the Taylor, and definitely have your tech setup the guitar to play as low as you can get away with ...which also will necessitate you changing your style/attack since lower action will more easily incur buzzing, but that low action can still be had successfully with a lighter touch. Maybe pay attention to how you play your electrics, and try to emulate that hand position with your acoustic. As well as perhaps raising the guitar on the strap to straighten your wrist angle as much as is practical. And with bar chords, perhaps resting more on your palm (and less on your thumb) when fretting the chord can offer you some relief: the goal is trying to minimize your hand's "clamping" pressure while still being able to fret cleanly. And here's a dumb one, but seems to help too: relax! Breathe and be conscious of keeping your whole body as relaxed as possible ...that may sound a bit ridiculous, but when we wince in pain from one part, sometimes the whole body responds with tension. One of the band guys (a serious musician who I respect much) told me I was clenching my jaw ...didn't even notice it! When I became more conscious of my overall posture and relaxed as I played, I found myself playing easier, longer, with greater comfort :)
FWIW, I've had to do a few things for a while, then after regaining strength/normalcy, I brought the string gauge back up to normal on the acoustics and electrics. So far so good, but I am mindful of wrist position and I "listen" to any hand pain, and do occasionally use a cold pack afterward if I feel it merits, though thankfully it's rare lately. Sorry if I'm rambling with stuff, but hope something of what I've been through may be of help :)
Edward
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Thanks Edward. I should say that I currently don't own a Taylor, but know that they have very comfortable necks and was hoping that maybe someone had some advice in that direction as well. One thing that I noticed while playing the last time was that my palm doesn't even touch the neck. Man I wish I would have made a totally different decision on what guitar to buy when I was a much younger man.
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Well if an LP with a 60s neck feels good, then you should have no problem with any Taylor neck should you decide to go that way ;)
Seriously, though, one of Taylor's hallmarks is their playability: the low action, yes, but the overall feel of a Taylor neck is a good part of their allure. And ask a bunch of guys who play lots of electric and many will tell you (including myself) that Taylor necks' action and carve make it a very easy transition to/from electric ...and my modest experience over the years definitely bears this out.
That said, some feel an even chunkier neck helps with hand issues. So a Martin (the more traditional, not their performance series which sport more Tayloresque neck carves) "fills" the fretting hand more, allowing more palm/less thumb to do the work; likewise an LP with 50s neck is a Martin's electric analogue. I know you have an Alvarez, but maybe you're looking for another? Food for thought, anywho. BTW, report back to us what you find has helped you ...I know I'd be interested. :)
Edward
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Try playing a Taylor 12-fret GC:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a569/mdbergstedt/Taylor%2012-fret%20GC/mct002f_zps9b93f2ea.jpg)
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Ibuprofen is your friend. These days I always take 800-1000 mg before the gig starts. As Edward said....when the pain speaks....listen...and fight back!
This regimen seems to work well for me. I go thru the same thing with my fretting hand. On the gigs I stick to my easiest playing Taylor which is a 2012 814ce. It's still strung with Elixir lights but plays like a dream. Had it set up.
I agree with having a pro set up your guitar to play as easy as it can. This is really an under-rated move. It makes a huge difference when the guitar is set up for YOUR needs and playing style.
A 12 fret might help too. They are a bit tighter length-wise so if you use a capo you might want a cut away so you have a bit of room up the neck.
12 frets are a tad easier to play barr chords on but they also make me feel a bit cramped for space at times.
Keep after it and good luck with the hand!
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Try playing a Taylor 12-fret GC:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a569/mdbergstedt/Taylor%2012-fret%20GC/mct002f_zps9b93f2ea.jpg)
Is that a 522ce 12 fret?
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Long ago dealing with sports injuries, an orthopedic surgeon told me that if joint pain (not muscle fatigue) continues more than 5-10 minutes after stopping an activity, evaluate how to change it. You are damaging the joint and it will only get worse over time. Stretching is also very, very good to help avoid repetitive motion injuries.
Comfort and neck size / shape are critical too. For example, I played Martin guitars for many years. Suddenly around age 47 or so, my left hand really began bothering me - it felt like I was getting arthritis in my knuckles and palm. I switched to Taylors for the neck shape and for the 1-3/4" neck width. I can play a Taylor guitar for 2-3 hours comfortably. But playing almost any standard Martin hurts my left hand after about 20 minutes maximum. It seems like 1/16" should not make that much difference, but it does, especially combined with the neck shape.
Looking at the picture, I see one obvious thing that is very common - the guitar is sitting on the right leg. I usually suggest making a barre chord at about the seventh fret, holding it long enough to feel the stress in your body, then moving the guitar onto the left leg. You will immediately feel the release of tension in your hand, wrist and shoulder. In other words, the classical position has some benefits which is why they do it that way. A variation of that theme is to use a strap and let the guitar hang naturally at the center of your body.
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Looking at the picture, I see one obvious thing that is very common - the guitar is sitting on the right leg. I usually suggest making a barre chord at about the seventh fret, holding it long enough to feel the stress in your body, then moving the guitar onto the left leg. You will immediately feel the release of tension in your hand, wrist and shoulder. In other words, the classical position has some benefits which is why they do it that way. A variation of that theme is to use a strap and let the guitar hang naturally at the center of your body.
That pic is not of me, it is one that M19 posted.
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If your Les Paul works for you, go get a Peavey Vypyr amp and set it for acoustic mode ,your LP will sound just like an acoustic. I do this with my ES 339 all the time.
http://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/1192/118346/Vypyr%26reg%3BVIP2
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Ibuprofen or any other pill will only hurt your liver function. Get Topricin for localized pain and inflammation. And, go try a x12 GC sized Taylor or two(or three)
Good luck!!
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It looks like I'm going to have to venture over to Sweetwater to give some 12 frets a try. Poor me. ;) ;) ;)
They don't seem to have any 12th frets that are CE though. Not sure I'm going to miss that though since I only play one song above the the 12th fret.
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My advice would be to start with Taylor's x14s (grand auditoriums), since they sit in the middle of the road of Taylor's line: not too big, not too small, set up for light gauge strings. I strum/pick and also play in church. It seems that X14s are widely used in church ensembles and solos, so it's probably a good place to start. I find the neck to be very comfortable, but if it still doesn't feel quite right, you can certainly move down a step in size to the x12s (grand concerts).
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They should think about making a 14 size that is a 12th fret guitar.
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They should think about making a 14 size that is a 12th fret guitar.
I had a 814ce LTD. It had the 12th fret set up. I always felt it was not well balanced and had to get rid of it.
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff366/mgap1/Taylor%20814ce%20fall%20Limited/EPSN1284.jpg)
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So they do make them, but it might not be the thing I'm looking for. Thanks for the info.
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I have been through many guitars. I have 2 LP's. One a 60 RI and the other a 59 RI.
I thought I liked the 60 profile, until I started playing the 59 more. Like my Fenders, "C" profile, the more rounded profile seemed easier on my left hand.
I recently switched over to Taylor acoustics (414ce and 814ce), and they seem to be a happy medium for me. Took a while to get used to the neck, but it's very comfortable. Now, I have a hard time with the strings being too close when I go back to my Ovation. The Taylor neck is not as flat backed as the 60 LP, but it is a little wider.
Spend some time playing them then decide.
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Hey there esmitty,
Know that you don't have to go 12fret; the "short scale" is the standard scale on all GC-sized guitars (which you can also have with/without a cutaway), and also appears on some BTO'd guits, as well (e.g. I own a ss dred). While there are not a whole lot of ss non-GC-bodies out there, if you try a GC at your local big-box guitar store you may get an idea of whether that's "enough" of a change to alleviate your playing discomfort. When you combine ss with light strings and a proper setup, you get a really easy-playing guitar that may be what you're looking for. Food for thought, anywhoo :)
Edward
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I did notice that the GC 12 fret and the 14 fret both have the same scale length. I also saw a video that explained that the 12 fret guitar moves the bridge more toward the middle of the lower bout to give it extra projection. I guess the only way to figure it out is to play them. I do like the short scale theory (yeah I know that there is merit in it) but am also open to playing a GA because of their popularity in the worship music genre and the projection that they are bound to get when playing with the band since I never get enough me in my monitor. I just know that I want more comfort and a guitar that makes sense.
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I don't think you mentioned what body shape, brand, nut width or neck type you are currently playing that is giving you discomfort. Might be helpful to know, to offer advice..
I find that larger body sizes can cause more discomfort than scale length sometimes.
You'll find a lot of folks move away from their dreadnaughts and jumbos with age...
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I don't think you mentioned what body shape, brand, nut width or neck type you are currently playing that is giving you discomfort. Might be helpful to know, to offer advice..
I find that larger body sizes can cause more discomfort than scale length sometimes.
You'll find a lot of folks move away from their dreadnaughts and jumbos with age...
Good point.
It is an Alvarez Pro PD -58SCAV which is a dreadnought with a 1 11/16 nut and 25 in scale length.
Spruce top, mahogany neck, rosewood finger board, and one piece rosewood back and sides if that matters.
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Taylor's standard scale is 25 1/2"; their short scale is 24 7/8" ...the latter not being far off from your Alvarez. Thus, a ss alone isn't going to be that quantitative difference that helps you.
That said, it is the differences in sum that may help you: body size/style ...dreds are, after all, not just on the big side, but the wide waist makes them sit markedly different from Taylors' GA,GS,GC bodies. As well as the neck shape, with all Taylor necks being identical in shape except for the occasional "slim carve." And the entire 300-900 series being 1 3/4" nut width unless BTO'd differently, or the 100/200 series at 1 11/16" width.
All to say, try em out :) Not saying Taylor will cure your ills (if only, right? ;) ), but there are more than a few folks who play them largely because of how easily they play. Then add in the other aforementioned aids and hopefully your hand-maladies will be solved, or at least minimized. :D
Edward
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I know that I like the Taylor's that I've played. When you say short scale guitars you are referring to the 12 fret ones or do they make 14 fret ones that are short scale also? Too many to go through them all. ;)
I know that my LP feels "softer" and "slinkier" under my fingers than my Tele. I'm only going by that since they are entirely different scale lengths (24.75 on the LP and 25 on the Tele) and the LP has 10's on it while the Tele has 9's. That being said, I know that electrics and acoustics are entirely different monsters, but it would seem to me that they still have the same basic mechanics.
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BTW, I sure do appreciate the help that everyone is willing to give. Seems like a great forum to learn from.
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When you say short scale guitars you are referring to the 12 fret ones or do they make 14 fret ones that are short scale also? Too many to go through them all. ;)
Short scale applies to 14 fret instruments too.
"Standard" Grand Concert body guitars are short scale and 14 frets, but Grand Auditorium 14s can be ordered with the short scale option as well.. Its not part of that models standard configuration though..
I think just going away from the Dreadnaught to a more comfortable body may provide what you need, at either scale length..
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esmitty, both 12 fret and 14 fret guitars can be either long scale (25.5") or short scale (24.9"). The number of frets where the neck joins the body has nothing to do with scale length (the distance between the nut and saddle). Long or short scale differ in the spacing between frets, and will mostly affect how the neck feels to your left hand - and the amount of stretch required. Twelve or fourteen frets to the body it might affect how the guitar sits and feels for you, so try both if you can.
Hope this helps.
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Long or short scale differ in the spacing between frets, and will mostly affect how the neck feels to your left hand - and the amount of stretch required. Twelve or fourteen frets to the body it might affect how the guitar sits and feels for you, so try both if you can.
Hope this helps.
I've asked this question on a different forum once. This explains why playing leads on my Tele and letting my LP sit for a month and then going back to the LP or vise versa can be difficult at first.
Okay, so it is good to know that a GA can be ordered short scale. Thanks.
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So why do the GC guitars have a wider nut than the GA guitars do?
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So why do the GC guitars have a wider nut than the GA guitars do?
It's not about the body shape, it's about the series.
100-200 series Taylor's have 1 11/16" nut. 300-900 series have 1 3/4" nut
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So why do the GC guitars have a wider nut than the GA guitars do?
It's not about the body shape, it's about the series.
100-200 series Taylor's have 1 11/16" nut. 300-900 series have 1 3/4" nut
Then Sweetwater is wrong. They have the 512ce as having a 1 3/4 nut and the 514ce as having 1.6875, which seems to me to be 1 11/16. I could be wrong on the conversion but it seems that they would have said it 1.75 if it were 1 3/4.
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So why do the GC guitars have a wider nut than the GA guitars do?
It's not about the body shape, it's about the series.
100-200 series Taylor's have 1 11/16" nut. 300-900 series have 1 3/4" nut
Then Sweetwater is wrong. They have the 512ce as having a 1 3/4 nut and the 514ce as having 1.6875, which seems to me to be 1 11/16. I could be wrong on the conversion but it seems that they would have said it 1.75 if it were 1 3/4.
Typo!
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So why do the GC guitars have a wider nut than the GA guitars do?
It's not about the body shape, it's about the series.
100-200 series Taylor's have 1 11/16" nut. 300-900 series have 1 3/4" nut
Then Sweetwater is wrong. They have the 512ce as having a 1 3/4 nut and the 514ce as having 1.6875, which seems to me to be 1 11/16. I could be wrong on the conversion but it seems that they would have said it 1.75 if it were 1 3/4.
It's possible to custom order a 514 with a 1 11/16" nut, but it would be a special order for a customer. Most likely it's just wrong data published. 514s will have standard 1 3/4" nuts, as will a standard 500 series Taylor of any body size.
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Cool, thanks.
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So why do the GC guitars have a wider nut than the GA guitars do?
I don't think they do; the Taylor specification sheet shows both with a 1-3/4" neck width...