Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: Tugboat on January 17, 2013, 07:00:50 AM
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Just wondering about Taylor consistency. I can afford a new 300 or 400 series but would obviously like used guitar prices a bit better. I'm not anticipating a very large used guitar section at the stores I'll be shopping at (very little in the way of guitar shops in my area) so if I go used it'll have to be either classifieds here or eBay.
How consistent are Taylors from guitar to guitar? Is it risky to buy a used Taylor, sight unseen? I won't be buying with intent to upgrade. I intend on buying a guitar I'll have for decades so I'm tending to think it might not be worth the risk buying sight unseen. If they're pretty consistent though, it may be a harder decision to buy new.
I'm eyeing a 314ce or a 414ce, BTW. I'll be doing it all (strumming, flatpicking, hybrid picking, and fingerstyle) so I want versatility.
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I think that most of us will chime in that Taylors are extremely consistent when compared to other guitar brands, and I'd concur. That said, the perceived inconsistency may occur as the difference between how the guitar sounds and plays and one's expectation as to how it will sound and play. It's comparable to the statistical terms validity and reliability. If you've played other 314ces and 414ces, I don't think you'll be disappointed. It may be a whole other story if you haven't. I've got a GA4 and a GA8 which have very different tones. I bought the GA4 after playing it, but purchased the GA8 long-distance. I'd played several 814ces, but never a GA8. For that matter, I'd never seen a GA8 close up before. The GA8 sounds much better than I expected. Go figure....
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I'm eyeing a 314ce or a 414ce, BTW. I'll be doing it all (strumming, flatpicking, hybrid picking, and fingerstyle) so I want versatility.
I've played a couple different 314ces, heard two or 3 more at open mics, and own a GA3 and all have sounded great. I've only heard one 414ce (and only plugged in) and actually prefer the 314 tone but that's just me. FWIW, as a used guitar the 314ce is the best bargain on Ebay based on a pretty extensive study I did on actual selling prices of well over 30 auctions. The 414ce is a pretty good bargain too. The 214 models are very poor bargains as used guitars. I did not look at the higher end models.
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That's the thing. I definitely want to try some out to see if I like the model but unless one just JUMPS out at me at the store I'd hate to buy new when, if they're consistent, I can buy used and get the same sounding guitar. Maybe better right off the bat, since used guitars will likely be broken in. Plus, used brings a 514ce into the equation, though I'm not sure how much difference you'd be able to hear between Mahogany and Sapele. Don't care about bling. 95% of the used 514ce's I've seen on eBay have been spruce top, not cedar.
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That's the thing. I definitely want to try some out to see if I like the model but unless one just JUMPS out at me at the store I'd hate to buy new when, if they're consistent, I can buy used and get the same sounding guitar. Maybe better right off the bat, since used guitars will likely be broken in. Plus, used brings a 514ce into the equation, though I'm not sure how much difference you'd be able to hear between Mahogany and Sapele. Don't care about bling. 95% of the used 514ce's I've seen on eBay have been spruce top, not cedar.
Sounds like time for a Road Trip....
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I was just commenting on this issue on a thread on AGF.
No two guitars are the same, even from a manufacturer with as much consistency and quality control as Taylor. I strongly recommend you try before you buy, and in fact I just bought a new 314ce myself. I played them at several different stores and the one at a certain GC just spoke to me in a way the others didn't. The store had two more unopened in the back so I brought out all three and compared them back to back to back. Once again, the one on the wall just had something the others didn't. I bought it even thought it wasn't minty fresh (had a couple of very small nicks) because it will be well played and won't be brand new for long anyway....
One other thing to keep in mind on used vs new. These guitars have electronics. Electronics are by definition delicate and as such, can misbehave or even break. When you buy new they are covered under warranty. When you buy used, they aren't so keep that in mind when you consider the difference in price.
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That may not be exactly an apples to apples comparison though, even though it's the same model. The one on the wall had strings that have likely been played some so they have been broken in a little. The ones in boxes have never been played before so the strings will be fresher and sound different.
I notice the sound of a set of strings change as I play them. Typically they start off bright and a touch harsh but sound better and warm up after being played a bit. Then they hit a point where they sound dull and lifeless and it's all downhill. I can see situations where never played guitars may not sound quite as good to some people as guitars hanging on the wall whose strings haven't been dulled too much.
All this is very non-scientific and very subjective though!
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Seems you'd be pretty safe with a Taylor as far as consistency and such. Check the classifieds here and at AGF and buy from a reputable seller - there are alot of them at both sites. You can definitely get more bang for the buck with a used purchase, sure there's some risk but again if you buy from someone who has a good rep the risk is minimized. Have fun and welcome to the forum!!
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That may not be exactly an apples to apples comparison though, even though it's the same model. The one on the wall had strings that have likely been played some so they have been broken in a little. The ones in boxes have never been played before so the strings will be fresher and sound different.
I notice the sound of a set of strings change as I play them. Typically they start off bright and a touch harsh but sound better and warm up after being played a bit. Then they hit a point where they sound dull and lifeless and it's all downhill. I can see situations where never played guitars may not sound quite as good to some people as guitars hanging on the wall whose strings haven't been dulled too much.
All this is very non-scientific and very subjective though!
My only point was if you find a guitar you really like, buy that one. Don't assume the next one will grab you quite the same way. In my case, the neck was actually one of the biggest differences, it just looks and plays fabulous. The other two were fine but this one was a cut above.
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.......Plus, used brings a 514ce into the equation, though I'm not sure how much difference you'd be able to hear between Mahogany and Sapele. Don't care about bling. 95% of the used 514ce's I've seen on eBay have been spruce top, not cedar.
The 514 is a completely different beast. From what I've played, it's not even close. I'd pick a 514 (cedar or spruce) over a 3 or 4 series every time. If I were you I'd look for a used '09 414ce fall limited with rosewood, "poor man's 814", I don't think you can go wrong with that guitar (unless your electronics crap out, that was a good point about buying used). Last year's "poor man" rosewood limiteds have the CV bracing but that's probably a few hundred more which might put you out of your range. To me, buying used without playing it first is a gamble you can afford to take if you buy at the right price. If it doesn't work out for you, there's a good market for less expensive Taylors and I'm sure you'll enjoy your time "renting" the instrument. That said, if you play one in the store and it really speaks to you, you might want to listen. Most reputable stores would be willing to negotiate on price and give you an option to return it within a specified time period if it just won't work out for you. Ultimately, I hope you will enjoy the journey, finding "your" instrument will likely be well worth the price tag and nominal costs incurred during the search so good luck and enjoy the ride!
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.......Plus, used brings a 514ce into the equation, though I'm not sure how much difference you'd be able to hear between Mahogany and Sapele. Don't care about bling. 95% of the used 514ce's I've seen on eBay have been spruce top, not cedar.
The 514 is a completely different beast. From what I've played, it's not even close. I'd pick a 514 (cedar or spruce) over a 3 or 4 series every time.
514's are about $XXXX more than a 314ce. For used ones that gap might narrow to $XXX but you're still talking about a pretty big jump. Heck, an 814ce is only $XXX more than 514ce, so if you can swing a 514 that you might as well go for the whole enchilada.
please utilize PMs for pricing discussions
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In my YouTubing so far I'm digging the mahogany and sapele guitars a bit more than the rosewood/ovangkol guitars, though trying them in person will be the only real way to tell. That would be the only thing about a used 814. If I end up preferring the mahogany back and sides, that leaves me with a 3 or a 5. I actually prefer less bling too to be honest. Especially on the fretboards. The 500 series is perfect with bling for me. I would probably avoid the higher series simply because they have too much of it.
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I would never judge the sound/tone of a guitar based on what I hear on YouTube. There are too many variables: your speakers, your listening environment, the mic it was recorded with, the room it was recorded in, the sound card on you computer, etc., etc., etc. You can get a vague idea of how one sounds against another - recorded in the same environment, under the same conditions, but the sound you hear over the internet can't be used to accurately judge the sound of the guitar.
But with that said, from everything I have heard about Taylor guitars (I own an 814), they are very consistent due to the mass production/manufacturing process. Every guitar in the same series will have a similar, but different sound quality. They will all have the "Taylor sound." And the build quality (fit and finish) is second to none.
My 2 cents...
Jim
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In my YouTubing so far I'm digging the mahogany and sapele guitars a bit more than the rosewood/ovangkol guitars, though trying them in person will be the only real way to tell.
That was my impression initially also. I did play a really nice sounding 414ce a while back but there was no 314 to compare it too. I'm sure you would be happy with either one.
In the end, I went with the GA3 because I had a pickup to put in it and I didn't care about the cutaway. Plus the GA3 was priced low enough to allow me to buy new instead of used.
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As others have said, buy one you can play if at all possible -- but if there's any brand I'd feel comfortable buying sight unseen, it's Taylor.
Technically my 210 falls into the latter category as the one I picked out from a pair of 210s and a 310 ended up going back a month or so later for a weird chip of wood that came out above the soundhole and under the fretboard. Taylor sent a brand new one from the factory and it sounded as good or better.
In either case -- buying in person or online -- I'd go with a nice shop that has a good reputation for selection, setup, and service.
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I just wanted to say that I've had very good luck purchasing on ebay. Do you research, know what to look for and what you want in a guitar. Taylor's build quality is very stable, guitar to guitar, far as I've seen. I'm always looking for the small variables Taylor changes within a model number-nut widths, revoicing, upgrades in woods etc. As was mentioned above, you really won't lose $ buying used (provided the guitar is priced within reason) and can flip it for another down the road if the guitar isn't what you thought it would be. ;D
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Without question I think it is best to play before you buy, but you can't always. I have ordered two Taylors through retail dealers, both models not the most popular, therefore difficult to play before I could buy. NS34CE, 2010, and GA4E, 2012. Very Pleased with both.
With the GA4E, I picked up within two hours of the UPS delivery. Opened the box, great set up and in tune! The NS34CE had been opened and inspected by the dealer prior to my picking up, but no adjustments were needed.
Just my experience.
FMB
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Have bought both new and used. GAS takes over and the herd is modified. Seems you lose a bunch on the new bought almost without exception. I usually buy used or trades nowdays. If you have a tryout agreement of a few days, and you are dealing with a person you know or have researched, at least as to the posts available on the guitar forums, your chances are reasonably good to get a nice used one at a reasonable price. The UMGF has a mandatory try out period I believe.
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I have played the same Taylor models side-by-side and noticed differences. I like a "alive" guitar. Sometimes I pick one up and when strummed its just "more dead" or "flat". Could be strings, wood set, bracing, ?
All this to say, I would play the guitar first before committing to it.
-Gary K
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I'm yet to find a Taylor which wasn't pretty much spot on. That said, I've only bought 600 series and up.
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I've bought three guitars sight unseen: two new Taylors from a dealer and one other brand, new, that was shipped across the country. All three had problems. Both Taylors had a buzz. Based on that experience, I would never buy a guitar sight unseen unless there was a guarantee that I could turn it down if it didn't meet my expectations. With a private-party sale you then run into issues of packing and shipping and who's going to pay for return shipping, and how you're going to get a refund. I wouldn't do it.
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I've bought three guitars sight unseen: two new Taylors from a dealer and one other brand, new, that was shipped across the country. All three had problems. Both Taylors had a buzz. Based on that experience, I would never buy a guitar sight unseen unless there was a guarantee that I could turn it down if it didn't meet my expectations. With a private-party sale you then run into issues of packing and shipping and who's going to pay for return shipping, and how you're going to get a refund. I wouldn't do it.
that stinks. i bought three from across the country also. all of mine came to perfect ! the store i got all 3 from does a very thorough inspection and setup before it's shipped to me. extra packing material and humidpaks and the world is fine ! good thing as i was a bit scared at the 324 i unwrapped this morning. the box looked like it had been used for target practice by the Afghan national police. the box was so well protected that the case didnt have a scratch and of course the guitar never moved in it's case...gotta love those snug taylor cases ! ok, off to tune it up some and spend some love on it !
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I also think that the Taylors tend to be much more consistant. I usually play as many as I can locally to hone in on what model attracts me the most over time. If I have the money I start watching craigslist until one pops up. That way I can go play it and know for sure. I have bought a GS8 off of ebay for a very good price. I personally think that the GS8 is a really good buy used.....see them going for a good price quite often. Not as popular as 714 or 814 I guess. Every once in a while I will see a top shelf taylor that seems just dead.....not strings, either. Just like once in a while you will hit one that just has it all together in a special way. Another thing to keep in mind is that you can usually get a big discount with used ones that are dinged up. I would much prefer a great sounding dinged up guitar than a pristine dead one....
Best of luck to you....
Edited--please use PM's to discuss pricing. Thanks!
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I've bought three guitars sight unseen: two new Taylors from a dealer and one other brand, new, that was shipped across the country. All three had problems. Both Taylors had a buzz. Based on that experience, I would never buy a guitar sight unseen unless there was a guarantee that I could turn it down if it didn't meet my expectations. With a private-party sale you then run into issues of packing and shipping and who's going to pay for return shipping, and how you're going to get a refund. I wouldn't do it.
i'm curious to know which production year & model these guitars were,
where they were shipped from & when & where they were shipped to ???
if they were NOS models that were a few years old, being shipped in the winter time,
it wouldn't be surprising to me if they needed to be restored to the correct humidity
levels, with the possible need for setup work & perhaps even neck resets on the Taylors -
purchasing a guitar from an out-of-state dealer should come with the understanding that if the guitar
is received & it is out of "factory specs", then a return should be granted or the cost to correct the
concerns covered, unless it's a blow-out, as-is, sale is final on a store demo that's never been sold
ymmv
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I think my post may have been misunderstood. I wrote that I bought "two new Taylors from a dealer and one other brand, new, that was shipped across the country." That means two Taylors shipped to my local dealer from Taylor and one guitar of another brand that was shipped across the country by a private party.
Diagnosing and solving a problem like a buzz can be very difficult, and I will never again accept a Taylor with a buzz in hopes that the cause will be found and fixed. I only got rid of the first problem when I sold the guitar, but was pretty astounded when the second guitar had the identical buzz, on the same fret.
In the case of the third guitar (private-party sale), the owner detuned it (error!), packed it, and left it sitting in the box for a couple of weeks in a hot, dry climate before shipping it. By the time it got to me it had a serious bow in the neck and I refused it. We then haggled about who was at fault and who should pay for shipping. I had trouble getting a refund from this seller and he charged me shipping both ways. The lesson here is that you have no control at all over what the other party on the other side of the country does---how they pack the guitar, whether they honor the agreement you made, etc. There are so many chances for something to go wrong here. I would never do this again.
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I have purchased a few new guitars directly via the internet…in every case I sold them within months. So I learned my lesson and I would not recommend purchasing any guitar that you could not play first and, ideally, compare it to others directly.
As far as consistency - When I bought my 414ce, there were three in the store, I bought the one that sounded best and it clearly did. Even the guitar sales guy there commented on it. Also, don't be concerned or surprised if you go into a store intending to buy a Taylor ABC and end up with a Taylor XYZ…or even a totally different brand of guitar. I went in specifically looking for a Taylor because I had heard that they are "brighter" sounding and I wanted a slightly brighter sound for gigging, plus I wanted a cutaway. I did NOT go in looking for a 414ce ("Ovankol, what the heck its Ovankol? I don't want some wood I never heard of!") but that's what I ended up with. Though if I had to do it over, I wouldn't get the "c" because it turns out that I don't use the capability at all and I'd prefer the look of a standard shape.
I have a friend who went into a store a couple of weeks ago to buy a Collings but walked out with a Huss and Dalton. You just never know how in-store shopping will turn out! But that's a good part of the fun.
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I think my post may have been misunderstood. I wrote that I bought "two new Taylors from a dealer and one other brand, new, that was shipped across the country." That means two Taylors shipped to my local dealer from Taylor and one guitar of another brand that was shipped across the country by a private party.
Diagnosing and solving a problem like a buzz can be very difficult, and I will never again accept a Taylor with a buzz in hopes that the cause will be found and fixed. I only got rid of the first problem when I sold the guitar, but was pretty astounded when the second guitar had the identical buzz, on the same fret.
In the case of the third guitar (private-party sale), the owner detuned it (error!), packed it, and left it sitting in the box for a couple of weeks in a hot, dry climate before shipping it. By the time it got to me it had a serious bow in the neck and I refused it. We then haggled about who was at fault and who should pay for shipping. I had trouble getting a refund from this seller and he charged me shipping both ways. The lesson here is that you have no control at all over what the other party on the other side of the country does---how they pack the guitar, whether they honor the agreement you made, etc. There are so many chances for something to go wrong here. I would never do this again.
i don't believe i misunderstood the post, other than the Taylors that were shipped to a local dealer, which still
could have been across the country & they could have been NOS models from a F&F sale, which still leaves the
questions regarding which year model guitars they were, where they were shipped & during what time of year ???
more times than not, diagnosing & correcting a buzz in a guitar is not too difficult & it may require
a little time & a logical approach, but depending on who is doing the work & the type of experience
they have in successfully troubleshooting & then performing that type of repair is rather important -
i used to work at a ford place & a "senior" tech's idea of diagnosing a no-start was to immediately drop the fuel tank,
only to find the tank was empty, rather than to verify power, putting a fuel pressure gauge on the schrader valve &
when the gauge didn't register, thinking about possibly putting in a gallon, or 3, of fuel in to see if it changed anything ::)
the other brand of guitar was used, as it was not purchased from an authorized dealer & due to previous owner's lack
of care of the guitar was the likely the cause of the neck issue, rather than a defect in the manufacture of the guitar -
if the purchase was made using a credit card through PayPal, there may have been some buyer's protection coverage,
but it was a used guitar from private owner & since it was not a Taylor, it has little, if any bearing, in this discussion, imho
i'm dealing with a slightly different situation, as it's a little more than a buzz, but i have plenty of control
over the situation & if worse comes to worst, the most i'll be out is some of my time, but not any of my $
ymmv
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More times than not, diagnosing & correcting a buzz in a guitar is not too difficult [/font][/size][/color]
That wasn't my experience. And sending a guitar across the country to Taylor (after talking with your local dealer and then making the rounds of the luthiers in your region) isn't my idea of fun. This can be avoided simply by only buying a guitar that you've played and inspected carefully, or by buying from a trusted source with clear return conditions that suit you.