Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Topic started by: ewalling on July 08, 2012, 10:17:14 AM
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Simple question, really. Judging by its price, I'd always assumed this wood was difficult to obtain or scarce, like koa, but I read recently on one site words to the effect that it was plentiful in Mexico. I recently bought a Kremona Solea classical in cedar and cocobolo that was very reasonably priced, but Taylor acoustics with this wood are among some of their most expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, is it marketing or scarcity, do you think?
P.S. I don't know how far the cocobolo has affected the sound on my new classical, but it is gorgeous. The guitar was bought online and had a sizeable discount, and I decided to take a risk just to see what the cocobolo would be like.
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I remember reading somewhere that when Taylor first started using cocobolo, they had problems with the wood cracking after the guitars had been sold. They then modified the wood drying and conditioning schedule and solved the cracking problem. The different drying schedule may factor into the cost, but I suspect that some of the price is marketing as well. The wood can be very beautiful, and apart from independent luthiers, there are not many places to go to get a cocobolo guitar.
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Yes, didn't they despairingly call it "crack-o-bolo" for a time?
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Before we retired, I did some wood turning (hobby-ish) - cocobolo is a beautiful wood, but can be delicate while working. I never had any issues after completing a project, but I did break up more with cocobolo than other exotic woods. It wasn't the least expensive, but it wasn't cheap.
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Excellent point about potential difficulties in working with a particular wood perhaps being a reason for the increase in the cost of a guitar made from those woods. It makes sense that it doesn't always have to involve the cost of procuring the wood.
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Good thread. I know one thing: although I do like the look and tone of cocobolo, the significant upcharge will probably drive me toward a less expensive tonewood, such as Indian rosewood for my next BTO. While not as visually striking, Indian rosewood's tone is by no means shabby when compared to its Mexican counterpart, IMHO....
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Supply and demand... If a consumer is willing to pay a high price for it, the producer will charge that price.
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Supply and demand... If a consumer is willing to pay a high price for it, the producer will charge that price.
i believe there is a little more to it than 'marketing' -
the current spring 800 LTDs carries a relatively a small upcharge for cocobolo
the first run of cocobolo LTDs was 01 (700LTD) -
the appointments were the same as the standard 700 series back then
(cedar or engelmann top, koa rosette, rosewood binding & headstock overlay, small MOP fretmarkers)
not unlike the 12 Spring 800LTDs (standard 800 aesthetics with cocobolo rather than rosewood)
runs of coco LTDs were also done in 03, 04, 05, 06, 08, 09 & 11 &
it was the first run of 01 LTDs that received a little 'notoriety' -
i haven't heard of other 'widely-spread' concerns, but some woods are more
prone to cracks than others (dense, highly figured woods in particular) &
cocobolo is an oily wood that is more dense the east indian rosewood, which
needs to be thinner to be used on an acoustic guitar (not as easy to bend)
legally obtained cocobolo is not as readily available as east indian rosewood &
when worked with, the dust can cause severe allergic reactions for some
in terms of $, it slots in between macassar ebony & AA koa (& madasgascar rosewood when it was available) &
taking into considering the increased amount of effort that it put into using cocobolo, it seems for those that
like the tone & aesthetics, the increase in cost is reasonable, imho, especially compared to some of the other
large scale builders (if cocobolo is even offered through their custom shop) ... it can carry a very high upcharge :o
coco also makes for some very nice looking firearm grips as well, imho - my buddy has this stainless 1911 that ...
oops, that's for another place at another time (got side-tracked there for a second :-[ )
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After admiring my '08 fall ltd cocobolo GAce a wordworking friend of mine told me that cocobolo is hard to work with because the dust can be pretty dangerous. It can induce pretty bad allergic reactions similar to poison ivy and in some people even anaphylaxis. Some people can't even work with it even with a full respirator it can be so bad. Some are actually allergic to the wood itself.
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What Michael said is correct. Coco was pulled off the Taylor books a couple years ago because they couldn't prove where the wood was coming from. It was a major issue for Taylor and rather than take a chance they stopped using it for almost a year.
There isn't a huge legal supply of Coco available but there is a fairly large demand for it so the price is high (also I'm sure all the paperwork etc that has to be done to do it legally adds to the cost).
-Dave
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I just don't think it's that simple. Your assessment only addresses the "demand" half of the issue.
I do not believe that consumers will pay a premium price for something that is not in short supply and that is easy and cheap for the builder to obtain.
Cocobollo commands a higher price (demand) because its harder and more expensive to obtain (supply). It's also harder to work with (labor intensive).
If Cocobollo were cheap and easy to source and simple to work with, you'd find the Chinese building lower-end guitars out of it just like the do with EIR and the demand would be diluted for higher-end builders like Taylor.
I agree with you completely that the consumer is demanding and paying a higher price for Cocobollo perhaps partially because of marketing, but the price reflects the difficulty the consumer is having in satisfying their demand.
Supply and demand... If a consumer is willing to pay a high price for it, the producer will charge that price.
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I've purchased five different Cocobolo guitars in the past 10 years, of which three are still in the collection. None of them were cheap, but neither were they outrageous in price. From my perspective, Coco commands the price it does because...:
1. Aesthetics -- Cocobolo has an eye catching color and grain pattern that grabs the attention of anyone interested in wood (ie., acoustic guitarists). It is a flamboyant red sequined evening gown compared to the basic black business suit that is EIR. This is what initially drew me to the wood in 2002.
2. Tone -- Cocobolo's tone is a wonderfully complex amalgamation of bell-like overtones, nice tight bass response and just enough midrange push to cut through the din of a full house. Paired with a Sitka or Engelmann top, Cocobolo absolutely sings - Regardless of body shape or size. In fact, my #1 recording guitar is a custom 2002 814c with Cocobolo and Sitka. It's so easy to mic and just sits perfectly in the mix with very little effort. I can't say that about my EIR guitars. Cocobolo may be a beautiful wood, but it's the tone that keeps it in my herd and gets used regularly.
3. Relatively Uncommon & Difficult to work with - As Taylor fans, I think we are a bit spoiled by the ready availability of Cocobolo as a tonewood. I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing a Coco build from any of the other big name players in the acoustic world (Martin, Gibson, Guild, Takemine, etc.). This says a lot about the difficulty in, or unwillingness to, deal with the idiosyncrasies of the wood on a larger scale by these builders. I remember talking to Bob about a Cocobolo/Redwood build I wanted to do in early 2004. At that time they were still struggling a bit with the "Crack-o-bolo" issue. He mentioned that they were experimenting with making the backs and sides thinner than standard EIR and were having success with it. Although it wasn't standard practice at the time, he wanted to try it on my build. I went with his suggestions and the guitar turned out fantastic with zero stability problems.
At the end of the day, I think the advantages of Cocobolo far outweigh any additional costs the use of it may incur. Then again, I am cuckoo for Cocobolo...
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Well, this Kremona Solea certainly has both the looks and the sound.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy243/timolin1/DSC05335.jpg)
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That's a-nice!!!! Beautiful instrument, sir!
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I believe one part of the equation that we are missing is that MUSICAL GRADE Cocobolo is not plentiful.
Just like here in the states we have large amounts of maple, both soft and hard, Musical grade maple is becoming much more scarce.
In the years that I have been purchasing and hording curly maple the supply of musical grade maple has become terribly expensive and the whiter cleaner straight grain maple has become near impossible to find. I believe the we are seeing the same thing with Cocobolo.
Our fall limited guitars, 3 of them, all came in with clear heartwood backs and sides, no sapwood at all but many of these guitars had sapwood in them, Nothing bad at all but having the creamy sapwood in the mix has become the norm for Cocobolo guitars. Again nothing bad at all but to get the all heartwood back and sides is becoming more and more rare hence the higher cost.
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That's a-nice!!!! Beautiful instrument, sir!
Thanks a lot! :)
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Here are a few examples of Cocobolo that are a part of the herd here at Casa del Gutch...:
1. '02 814c Custom "TaylorStock" (Coco/Sitka) -- The one that started it all...
(http://www.twicebakedmusic.com/images/coco2.jpg)
2. '03 912ce Custom (Coco/Engelmann) -- 1-7/8" nut make this one very comfortable for fingerstyle
(http://www.twicebakedmusic.com/images/coco1.jpg)
3. '04 910 Custom (Presentation grade Coco/Redwood) -- Beautiful chevron flamed Redwood top made this one very unique. Has since moved on to a new home.
(http://www.twicebakedmusic.com/images/coco3.jpg)
4. '05 812ce Custom (Coco/Sitka) -- I thought the revoiced GC body would be a good addition. In fact, it sounded almost identical to the 814c mentioned above. This one didn't stick around long - It found a new home with a fingerstylist in New England.
(http://www.twicebakedmusic.com/images/coco4.jpg)
5. '08 GS Custom (Coco/Engelmann) -- Taylor did a killer job on this one! Koa binding and rosette with the blank fretboard give this guitar a very understated look from the front. The tone of this one belies the simple look -- It is an absolute CANNON, yet the responsiveness to dynamics makes it equally sweet to play quietly.
(http://www.twicebakedmusic.com/images/GS/GS2.jpg)
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Well, this Kremona Solea certainly has both the looks and the sound.
sweet :)
i checked out the kremona site & there a lot of nice instruments in there -
sapele, walnut, rosewood, lacewood, madagascar rosewood & cypress
since we're sharing coco pics, here are 3
engelmann top GA
(http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/41612/2554624770081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
adi top GA
(http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/44535/2788108670081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
sitka top DN
(http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/10109/2370058960081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
currently there are none -
sometimes difficult decisions need to be made, but i don't regret it for a moment
(http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/48660/2711912410081788860S600x600Q85.jpg)
there will be opportunities for other guitars, but i doubt i'll be able to acquire another fred :)
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Wish I had a good camera... but this is the back on my '08 Fall LTD Cocobolo
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53/bertbassplayer/taylor2.jpg)
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Wow, some amazing-looking guitars here! I once owned a T5 in cocobolo, and while the guitar wasn't quite for me, I still kinda regret letting such a beautiful instrument go.
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I am an admitted Cocobolo addict..
I find its looks and tone to be fantastic, and i especially love what Taylor does with it..
Seeing some of the other pix here, i had to share my own with those that might appreciate..
Im a bit spoiled, for sure...
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/maestrodmw/Cocobolo/9bf148e7.jpg)
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Wow! What a collection, davwir!!
I need to print it out in a poster size so that I can touch and drool...
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HOLY COW!!!! :) I thought I had a problem -- Not anymore! You win!!!!! :D
Great looking collection of Cocobolo. How do the electrics sound with the Coco tops as compared to a more common Maple cap or solid Mahogany or Ash? Warmer?
I am an admitted Cocobolo addict..
I find its looks and tone to be fantastic, and i especially love what Taylor does with it..
Seeing some of the other pix here, i had to share my own with those that might appreciate..
Im a bit spoiled, for sure...
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/maestrodmw/Cocobolo/9bf148e7.jpg)
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I can't say that I think the tops on the electrics really alter the tone too much.
But it's really pretty to have a Coco top for sure!
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I am not a fan of rosewood on anything larger than an OM, but if you like rosewood, you will go coo-coo for cocobolo! It has everything that indian rosewood has and more. I like it better than brazillian. The trebles are less harsh and glassy. Cocobolo is smoother and rounder in the trebles with less scoop in the midrange. Taylor does cocobolo very well. I think it is worth the up charge, especially on the LTD's. The latest 814ce LTD is a real winner! beautiful appointments, lively, rich, and full of overtones. I think it sounds very much like a Goodall for about half the price. If you like rosewood, buy cocobolo.