Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: McBrain on December 07, 2022, 06:21:47 PM
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Yesterday morning I received a Beautiful GT811 (no electronics) from Thomann in Germany. Thomann sent the guitar on Wednesday last week, so it took six days to get to my house in Denmark.
I gave it time to acclimate; After about four hours, I removed the outer box. I then waited an hour more before removing the inner box. It then sat a few hours in the closed AeroCase before I unzipped it and waited another hour before opening the lid. All this was in my humidity controlled music room with a relative humidity of 45%.
Last night I finally had time to check it for flaws or damage. I quickly noticed that there is an area where the top is uneven in a stripe running from the bridge below the low E-string. Here the wood sits slightly lower than on the rest of the top. I also notice a little fret sprout on the neck.
Also the low E-string seems to have lower volume and a duller sound compared to the other strings. Could just be in my head though, since I noticed the issues before I played it.
Here's a video of the top, where you can see the uneven line: https://youtu.be/FNzq7x2OchM?t=69 (https://youtu.be/FNzq7x2OchM?t=69)
And here's a picture of the top, where I marked the area: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhRufUbEngcKlKh3H1JJJS_FGFhLQw?e=GAeZgw (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhRufUbEngcKlKh3H1JJJS_FGFhLQw?e=GAeZgw)
Is this to be expected on a 800-series?
I can't decide if I should just return it. It's quite expensive for what it is, and I saved for it for a while, so I'm afraid it will bother me if I keep it.
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I was unable to see either the pictures or the video (marked as private). However, your concerns seem valid to me. At this price point, there should be no manufacturing flaws to speak of. Fret sprout is easily handled -- five careful minutes with a file and some masking tape. But an uneven top surface is a major red flag to me.
Based on personal experience, I know that if you get off on the wrong foot with a guitar early on, that is never truly forgiven or forgotten. I tried for years to bond with a high end guitar from another maker that had obvious build flaws (and from their vaunted custom shop no less) then finally sold at a significant loss after spending hundreds on repairs that absolutely should have been warranty issues, but were denied.
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Sorry. The video should work now.
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It is subtle and requires just the right reflection, but that looks like a major ripple or distortion in the top. I believe that the GT has V-bracing, so that almost looks like lack of support from a detached longitudinal brace. If you tap that area, can you hear any buzzing? I you reach inside, can you wiggle that brace?
Back she goes.... :-[
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I would ask for an exchange, unlikely to have 2 that way, and no, this is not normal for an 800 series, or even a 100 series Taylor. As Earl points out, if it is bothering you today, it likely always will so don’t try to convince yourself that it is ok.
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It is subtle and requires just the right reflection, but that looks like a major ripple or distortion in the top. I believe that the GT has V-bracing, so that almost looks like lack of support from a detached longitudinal brace. If you tap that area, can you hear any buzzing? I you reach inside, can you wiggle that brace?
Back she goes.... :-[
I fear that you are right, so I have decided to return it.
I haven't checked for a loose brace, since I don't want to mess with it too much. Even a minor ding or scratch could be a problem, when I return it.
I have described the issues to Thomann as the reason for returning it, so hopefully it won't get sold to someone else in this condition without them knowing. I have asked for a full refund, since they no longer carry the sans-electronics GT 811, so I'm afraid that they will instead insist on trying to repair it rather than ordering a replacement.
I also contacted Taylor support yesterday morning before posting here, but I still haven't heard from them.
It's a phenomenal looking guitar with a really pretty fretboard and I got it for $2400 (cyber week offer), so this is double frustrating, since I will now have to pay the full $2900 for a replacement.
Thanks to you both for helping me decide the best course of action.
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If it is your desire, Taylor will absolutely take care of the fret sprout, and if they find issue with the top, that as well. They are second to none in supporting their customers, truly. This is but one option to consider should the dealer balk at a return, or that you don’t want to lose the dough that you saved.
Edward
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If it is your desire, Taylor will absolutely take care of the fret sprout, and if they find issue with the top, that as well. They are second to none in supporting their customers, truly. This is but one option to consider should the dealer balk at a return, or that you don’t want to lose the dough that you saved.
Edward
Thanks, good to know. I have decided not to return the guitar before I hear back from Taylor.
I sent an e-mail to support@taylorguitars.com on Wednesday morning (GMT+1), so I'm hoping to hear from them today.
The fret sprout is actually not an issue at all, since I'm allergic to nickel and therefore I have my guitars refrettet with EVO Gold fretwire. I just mentioned it in case the ripple and the fret sprout are both the result of a dry guitar. This is also why I need to be as sure as possible, that I will be happy with the guitar, since having it refrettet will probably void the warranty and make it harder to sell + I will lose more money on it.
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There's a big time difference involved so while it's good you did email I'd suggest a call to their Amsterdam Customer Service line : +31 (0)20 667 6033 for more immediate assistance.
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There's a big time difference involved so while it's good you did email I'd suggest a call to their Amsterdam Customer Service line : +31 (0)20 667 6033 for more immediate assistance.
Thanks. I will try calling if they don't respond to my mail soon. I prefer using photos/video to show what the problem is rather than having to explaining it over the phone. And the time difference shouldn't matter since I don't expect them to reply instantly.
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Hey McBrain,
Fwiw, my 08 DN that I've played lots over the years needed another level/crown. But instead of spending that dough, I went full boat and refretted in Jescar EVO. Love, love, love the results! That you do this proactively is quite the dedication. But I can't argue as the result is stellar. I'm a big SS fan for electrics, but this is my first for an acoustic ...I can't recommend it enough!
Chime back in when you get results and update us! :)
Edward
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EVO frets for me, thanks! I am not allergic, thanks goodness , but I am a big believer in the Jescar EVO hard gold frets. No fret dressing necessary for decades….
Wise to see what Taylor CS has to say. Their work is as good as it gets, imo.
Best on this
Paul
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Still haven't heard from Taylor CS, but I may have found the answer myself in the Wood and Steel "Ask Bob"-section. It's known as telegraphing and is to be expected on guitars with V-Class bracing. And since C-Class bracing is similar to V-Class bracing I'm guessing it also applies here.
First question on page six:https://woodandsteel.taylorguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/WS-V99-Issue1-English.pdf (https://woodandsteel.taylorguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/WS-V99-Issue1-English.pdf)
"I have a 2019 814ce with a cedar top that I purchased from Wildwood Guitars in August of 2019. It’s been lovingly played nearly every day since, and otherwise stored in its hardshell case with an Oasis humidifier. I also have a small digital hygrometer in the case and check it each time I get my guitar out to play. It’s always between 40 and 45 percent RH. Lately I have begun to notice “witness lines” of the [V-Class] bracing pattern in the top. I can clearly see the “V” radiating down from the bridge to the tail of the guitar, and I can also see witness lines of those same braces between the bridge and the soundhole. Is this normal? I love my guitar, and I just want to be sure I am doing everything I can so it has a long and wonderful life. -Mike Keffeler"
"Mike, this is normal and not a problem. Telegraphing is when you can see the pattern of the braces underneath the top by looking at the top in certain light conditions. I’ll try to explain in words, but I’m making a video response as well. Our V-Class bracing is still new to the market after just a couple years, but we made guitars with it in our factory and put them through both our torture chambers and time trials for five years before ever releasing them to be sure they would be resilient. What is so good about V-Class is that the braces don’t run across the top from one side to the other like X bracing does. This helps both the sound and the stability of the guitar. Many other stringed instruments are actually braced in a similar way to V-Class, like mandolins, violins, archtop guitars and others. We have a soundhole in the middle of the top, so we run our braces in the V pattern to pass by the sides of the soundhole. The top of the guitar will shrink and swell with changing humidity levels, as always. An X brace runs across the grain from side to side, so it doesn’t show as much of the telegraphing pattern. But it causes the top to arch up with humidity and down with dryness. This is forever a problem because the string height goes up and down like a bladder being inflated and deflated. Since V-Class runs at only a slight angle in relation to the top grain, as the top stretches from drying, or gathers in on itself as it swells from higher humidity, it does not cause the top to rise and fall. Action and string height stay amazingly stable. This is a huge advantage of the V-Class design in addition to the tonal and intonation advantages. But the top can show the braces underneath when a top stretches or gathers from changing width. It’s just visual. There is no harm being done. It can come and go with humidity changes. Don’t be alarmed. We’ve tortured these guitars to extremes you cannot imagine. We are confident in them. -Bob Taylor"
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Hey McBrain,
Fwiw, my 08 DN that I've played lots over the years needed another level/crown. But instead of spending that dough, I went full boat and refretted in Jescar EVO. Love, love, love the results! That you do this proactively is quite the dedication. But I can't argue as the result is stellar. I'm a big SS fan for electrics, but this is my first for an acoustic ...I can't recommend it enough!
Chime back in when you get results and update us! :)
Edward
Will do :)
I mostly play electric and had three of them refretted with SS before I learned about Jescar EVO frets. I actually don't get a reaction from SS frets since they don't release much nickel. But just to be safe I went with EVO frets on my Gibson Explorer and ES-339,and I can't say that I regret it.
I used to own a Gibson Hummingbird and later a GS Mini Koa that I sold, when my nickel allergy went haywire a few years back and I had to refret everything.
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EVO frets for me, thanks! I am not allergic, thanks goodness , but I am a big believer in the Jescar EVO hard gold frets. No fret dressing necessary for decades….
Wise to see what Taylor CS has to say. Their work is as good as it gets, imo.
Best on this
Paul
Thanks. Yeah, being allergic to nickel is really frustrating, but at least there are nickel-free options out there.
After reading up on telegraphing lines on acoustics, I have decided to keep the GT811 as is, since it sounds, plays and looks fantastic so I don't want to risk returning it and replacing it with another one.The devil you know and all that...
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Wow, man, allergy to nickel ...that stinks! But yes, at least you have excellent fret alternatives; though costly they feel great! :D
Edward
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Here's a few videos I found on YouTube of GT 811's where the bracing is also visible through the top in the same area.
https://youtu.be/qsBrsR0omSk?t=27 (https://youtu.be/qsBrsR0omSk?t=27)
https://youtu.be/YYuBeJhM6mc?t=225 (https://youtu.be/YYuBeJhM6mc?t=225)
https://youtu.be/6M7nj4pF_Jo?t=200 (https://youtu.be/6M7nj4pF_Jo?t=200)
https://youtu.be/kemkM4duiGk?t=309 (https://youtu.be/kemkM4duiGk?t=309)
In fact I haven't seen a video of a gt 811, where there are lights reflecting off the top and the bracing isn't visible. So I'm guessing the majority - if not all - of the GT 811's out there are like this. Most people probably just don't notice it.
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I checked out a couple of those vids and looked closely to my oldest acoustics.
So fwiw, I have a 2008 RTaylor, style 2 (GC size body), and I can just barely see two lines of this "telegraphing" (that I've also heard called "witness lines") in the top near the sound hole. And I mean just barely visible if the light angle is exactly right and reflecting just so. Keep in mind this guit is forward-shifted X bracing, but these RTs were very lightly built/braced, and also purportedly had a thinner finish relative to the production line Taylors of that era. All to say I think what you're seeing is simply a matter of the guitar's build parameters and, as the factory stated, variances in RH. Mine is simply old and been played lots. Rock stable in all ways so I never noticed it until you brought it up. If it ain't causing you issues, enjoy it!
Edward
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I checked out a couple of those vids and looked closely to my oldest acoustics.
So fwiw, I have a 2008 RTaylor, style 2 (GC size body), and I can just barely see two lines of this "telegraphing" (that I've also heard called "witness lines") in the top near the sound hole. And I mean just barely visible if the light angle is exactly right and reflecting just so. Keep in mind this guit is forward-shifted X bracing, but these RTs were very lightly built/braced, and also purportedly had a thinner finish relative to the production line Taylors of that era. All to say I think what you're seeing is simply a matter of the guitar's build parameters and, as the factory stated, variances in RH. Mine is simply old and been played lots. Rock stable in all ways so I never noticed it until you brought it up. If it ain't causing you issues, enjoy it!
Edward
Thanks Edward. I am enjoying it immensely! Couldn't be happier with it.
The only reason I posted the videos was to demonstrate that this seems to be perfectly normal on guitars with v-class/c-class bracing, in case others notice the lines and become worried that it's a flaw or a problem.
This reply from from Taylor Customer Service is the reason I started looking for the lines on other 811's:
(I know it says "V-class" and "redwood top", but she probably copy/pasted it and forgot to change the details)
"The telegraphing lines will be present to one degree or another on every v class design, in the same way they should be present on every fan braced classical guitar. The effect is technically known as bimetal coupling. It occurs whenever two materials with different characteristics are bonded to each other over a significant length. Here, the spruce braces underneath have a little different expansion and strength characteristic than the redwood top. Since they are nearly parallel to each other, you can see the difference between the two materials show up right at the edges of the braces.
This is not to be considered a defect. If the top were made thick enough to not telegraph, the guitar would not sound as good. It will never pose a structure concern of the guitar. In fact, these guitars are far stronger and will age with greater stability.
The design of these guitars shares family history with fan braced classical guitars as well as parallel braced archtop guitars, both of which are known for showing these same telegraph lines.
Most spruce top guitars will show these lines slightly less, due to the top and brace stock having closer characteristics. Any guitars with a less highly polished top, or lighter color will make it really hard to spot the lines. But rest assured, they are there."