Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: Scottp on May 03, 2021, 06:38:19 PM
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Hello!
I have a 2011 614ce which I believe has the version 1 ES2 system.
I am wondering if anyone has upgraded to the latest ES2 system and if they are happy with the results? Going from ES2 v1 to ES2 v2.
Also does anyone know what the latest version of the ES2 system is?
Thanks so much!
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Pretty sure your axe has the ES1.3, or maybe the ES1.2. I think the ES2 came out in 2014 and was standard throughout the lineup by 2015. Lots of info on the AGF: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344779
Heck, Call Taylor support and ask. Easy peasy....
I like the ES2 version 2 better than the ES2 version 1. I have swapped two. I still like the ES1.3 better for what I do.
But I still prefer a K&K mini in everything. I dislike having a bunch of electronics and wires and a battery in my guitars. But if I was onstage in a band it might be worth it!
Since I play solo acoustic and usually completely unamplified I prefer the simple approach.
We all have different needs, but music works for us all
Cheers
Paul
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Scott, I have owned the barn door Fishman, the ES1.1 (two AA batteries), plus ES1.2 and ES1.3 (both with 9V battery). The ES1.3 system was my favorite, but I had no real objection to the barn door systems either. They worked well enough and kept the controls right there handy.
I have never owned an ES2 equipped guitar - it is a major obstacle preventing me from buying another new Taylor, candidly. And I would never let them convert one of my guitars to ES2. While the principle behind sensing vibration on the side of the saddle instead of underneath it is understandable, I disapprove of the exposed holes in the bridge no matter how well camouflaged. There are less invasive ways to get better sound without permanent mods to the outside of the guitar. Just my opinion, but you asked.
My understanding of ES2 v1 versus ES2 v2 is that they finally worked out some of the bugs (pre-amp boards, etc) that maybe never should have been released in the first place. When discussing ES2 I can't help but use the phrase, "not ready for prime time". YMMV.
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I agree with Earl completely. Over the decades I have owned Taylors with every pup system they offered. Fishmans, Baggs under Saddle, all three of the ES1s and lately both versions of the ES2
Again my fave of all was the ES1.3. Even Taylor's literature says it is the closest to a good condenser mic. And I believe it can still be special ordered.
What are you plugging in to???
Remember, no pup will really sound just like the instrument it is in! Sigh...
I would do some serious experiments with amps, cables and preamps before altering your instrument.
Best on this
Paul
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A call to Taylor to verify would be in order, but, I agree with the ES1.3 being best and I upgraded my 1.1 to a 1.3 on my 314ce. If you already have 2.1 than maybe 2.2 could help.
Good luck.
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I'm pretty sure that your 2011 Taylor has the ES1.3 pickup, which IMO, is the best version that Taylor has had to offer. Are you having problems with your current system?
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Wait a minute ...I think this thread got a bit derailed with talk of the ES1 version this or that.
Scott, the OP, has an ES2-equipped guitar.
Scott, can you confirm that your pickup is the ES2 ...ya got three small Allen heads behind your saddle, right? :)
The original post was ES2 orig vs the later preamp, which I think was fitted as standard in 2016 or so. This update --which they made no public mention of if I recall-- was because the first ES2 guitars had pronounced bass that was a challenge to dial out ...man, seriously tubby tone! While I don't know for a fact this was the factory's rationale, I know for a fact this was my biggest issue with the ES2, and many others as well. Those with post 2016 Taylors seem to be pleased with the ES2, so who knows, maybe the revoiced preamp was the fix. Likewise, I recall some who have had ES2 issues have their preamps replaced by the factory with the updated versions.
Edward
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The first ES2 came out in 2013. A 2011 614ce would have had an ES1.3 system.
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Hey SF,
Well that's good to know! ...perfect then :)
Hey Scott,
You have the ES1, third iteration which all we geeks call the 1.3 and it came out in 2010. Just confirm that you do not have three hex heads behind your saddle. FWIW, along with the others here, I have long since decided and proclaimed that the ES1.3 is of the best-sounding pickup systems for a band setting:
- it is not a piezo system so doesn't suffer from piezo quack so immediately sounds better than most
- the 1.3 preamp is voiced very well and precious little eq is needed for a good acoustic guitar tone in a PA
- it has the best gain-before-feedback short of a sound-hole mag pickup; priceless in a full band or loud stage setting
- and has a lo-z output capability: use a TRS cable and you get a 6db boost and a balanced output for a console or PA, as well as straight into an audio interface. This is a genuinely pro-level feature rarely found in any pickup system.
There are those who like the ES2, to be sure. I own both and pick the ES1.3 any day, any time, no question. I still can gig with my ES2 and get decent tone, though with more dramatic EQing required to get me there. The ES1.3 is closer to what an acoustic sounds like out of the gate, and thus easier to get it to sound like a good acoustic guitar through a PA. What is the specific problem you are experiencing with your guitar when you plug in?
Edward
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Wait a minute ...I think this thread got a bit derailed with talk of the ES1 version this or that.
Scott, the OP, has an ES2-equipped guitar.
Scott, can you confirm that your pickup is the ES2 ...ya got three small Allen heads behind your saddle, right? :)
The original post was ES2 orig vs the later preamp, which I think was fitted as standard in 2016 or so. This update --which they made no public mention of if I recall-- was because the first ES2 guitars had pronounced bass that was a challenge to dial out ...man, seriously tubby tone! While I don't know for a fact this was the factory's rationale, I know for a fact this was my biggest issue with the ES2, and many others as well. Those with post 2016 Taylors seem to be pleased with the ES2, so who knows, maybe the revoiced preamp was the fix. Likewise, I recall some who have had ES2 issues have their preamps replaced by the factory with the updated versions.
Edward
Yes, so many other comments not about what I am asking. My guitar has the ES2 system. That is the system in question.
My guitar is a 2011 614ce Spruce/Maple.
Thanks for all the input though! :)
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Hey SF,
Well that's good to know! ...perfect then :)
Hey Scott,
You have the ES1, third iteration which all we geeks call the 1.3 and it came out in 2010. Just confirm that you do not have three hex heads behind your saddle. FWIW, along with the others here, I have long since decided and proclaimed that the ES1.3 is of the best-sounding pickup systems for a band setting:
- it is not a piezo system so doesn't suffer from piezo quack so immediately sounds better than most
- the 1.3 preamp is voiced very well and precious little eq is needed for a good acoustic guitar tone in a PA
- it has the best gain-before-feedback short of a sound-hole mag pickup; priceless in a full band or loud stage setting
- and has a lo-z output capability: use a TRS cable and you get a 6db boost and a balanced output for a console or PA, as well as straight into an audio interface. This is a genuinely pro-level feature rarely found in any pickup system.
There are those who like the ES2, to be sure. I own both and pick the ES1.3 any day, any time, no question. I still can gig with my ES2 and get decent tone, though with more dramatic EQing required to get me there. The ES1.3 is closer to what an acoustic sounds like out of the gate, and thus easier to get it to sound like a good acoustic guitar through a PA. What is the specific problem you are experiencing with your guitar when you plug in?
Edward
My 2011 614ce has the 3 allen adjustment screws on the saddle mount.
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Here is a bit more I found from the Taylor site.
https://www.taylorguitars.com/support/electronics/taylor-expression-system-2
My guitar does have the ES2 system.
I heard there was a preamp change. Is anyone familiar with the V2 preamp for the ES2 system?
Thank you all!
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More information from Taylor...
The ES2 electronics is the current system we're using. The only change we've done is a change in the preamp settings that has a lower gain and lower mid settings to have it less sensitive and quieter and give out a different tone than the original ES2. That was as of October 2016.
"you can purchase the current preamp, which is part # 84201 and costs $90 plus shipping"
This is the basis of my original question.
Has anyone upgraded the ES2 preamp to the latest version?
Thanks.
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Glad you got that part cleared up, Scott.
So may I ask then, what specifically is it you're not liking about your ES2? Is the system working fine but you're not satisfied with the tone, or are you experiencing something genuinely wrong with it when you plug in?
Edward
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Clarify, please
Your axe must have been "upgraded" to whatever was the current system if you do have the ES2.
So, You do have the three tiny hex set screws touching the back of the saddle? That will be an ES2.
If you don't have the set screws you have an ES1
It would be good if we are all singing from the same proverbial page in the hymnal
This is interesting...
Paul
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Clarify, please
Your axe must have been "upgraded" to whatever was the current system if you do have the ES2.
So, You do have the three tiny hex set screws touching the back of the saddle? That will be an ES2.
If you don't have the set screws you have an ES1
It would be good if we are all singing from the same proverbial page in the hymnal
This is interesting...
Paul
Right, Paul! So, Chris - do you know whether your 2011 614ce had an ES 1 to ES2 upgrade, as the ES2 was first introduced in 2013? Just curious....
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Glad you got that part cleared up, Scott.
So may I ask then, what specifically is it you're not liking about your ES2? Is the system working fine but you're not satisfied with the tone, or are you experiencing something genuinely wrong with it when you plug in?
Edward
Well since I had my 2003 414ce, that I played the heck out of (now gone) that guitar had a basic under the saddle factory pickup.
Being a big Taylor fan back in the day I watched closely as the developed their new acoustic pickup systems. Like the one with 3 sensors.
Fast forward to a few months ago, I fell in love with the finish on this guitar, beautiful flame maple grain on the back and sides. I checked the pickup at the store, just to make sure it worked, expecting that it was going to sound better than my old 414ce.
It did not. The tone is bright and not well balanced. Yes all the controls seem to work throughout their ranges.
I checked the frets for being level and they were not. They were all over the place.
I just had a setup, level, crown and polish done on it. It already plays SO much better.
The luthier said he checked and adjusted the 3 saddle sensors.
I'm hoping to get some time real soon to plug it in!
Thanks.
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Clarify, please
Your axe must have been "upgraded" to whatever was the current system if you do have the ES2.
So, You do have the three tiny hex set screws touching the back of the saddle? That will be an ES2.
If you don't have the set screws you have an ES1
It would be good if we are all singing from the same proverbial page in the hymnal
For the record, I do have the three tiny hex set screws touching the back of the saddle? Yes it is an ES2.
Thanks.
This is interesting...
Paul
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My guitar does have the ES2 system.
I heard there was a preamp change. Is anyone familiar with the V2 preamp for the ES2 system?
Apologies for derailing your thread -- mea culpa. Yes, the original ES system had some tone and balance issues, and Taylor was replacing the first pre-amp board for a while under warranty. I don't know how to tell if you have the original V1 pre-amp or the revised V2 version, but Customer Support can answer that question. It probably can be identified by a switch or a visible part number. Call to get their help. I recall many reports that the new pre-amp board mostly solved the gain and balance problems in the field.
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Hey Scott,
The fret level/crown work is good as you not only get a better player, but it rules out that variable. Your ES2 is, indeed, the earliest of the preamps. And since you've already called them and they gave you the price of the current preamp, they clearly aren't going to do it for you gratis ...something they do for the original owner under warranty.
So my suggestion is buy a .050" allen wrench (I bought my set from Amazon for a few bucks), and adjust the three heads yourself. It's not a drastic tonal or balance difference, but it does help a bit. I personally found the harsh brightness is due to the screws being too tight, which apparently the piezo responds with a sharp, brittle top end.
May I suggest: plug in the guitar and put ES knobs to detent. Turn up the volume on your amp (but I found good headphones through an audio interface to be more sensitive/accurate), and back off each screw until it is clear it no longer has any influence on the volume. Then slowly tighten the screw sloooowly until you hear it affect the volume. HERE is where you tweak it "just so" ...and we are talking about minute changes in the screw head to adjust the volume for that pair of strings. Repeat for the other two screws/pair of strings.
Shortcoming: that one screw affects the pair of strings unequally. For example, adjusting for relative volume for the high e will result in a B that's too loud; get the B where I want it and the e is not loud enough. Same with the low E and A. Ugh! I have no great love for the ES2, but adjusting the screws and lots of judicious EQ-ing (GEQ or parametric) makes it ok, passable; better than normal piezo UST (which I typically dislike), so at least it's a decent live tone once I've done all the aforementioned tweaking.
Sorry if this is too much info, or is simply irrelevant to you, but thought I'd just toss it out there as perhaps you find something of help. :)
Edward
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Hello Edward!
Definitely not too much info!! :)
Thank you for the detailed response. I love the headphone idea!
I will give that a try and report back. Probably in about 1 week, lots going on.
I appreciate everyone's help too!
Thanks.
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I have and I’m also an authorized repair tech. The V2 preamp is not as high output. People were complaining of hand noise and feedback issues, so they tested it with the ES-T preamp and it’s a better fit overall. Here’s a guide I made on getting the most out of it: https://vimeo.com/502271767/d1bb13b395
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Hello,
Thank you so much for the information and the video.
Very well done!!!