Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: Chris_T on January 26, 2021, 12:53:30 PM
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Can I ask a non-Taylor related question?
I am a novice guitar player and have a situation that you experienced folks may be able to help with.
I ordered a new Martin GPCPA4. When it arrived I was instantly disappointed with the sound. I did not expect it to be as bright as my 114 but I also did not expect it to have no life either.
This model has been discontinued and was built in 2018. My guess is that it has been sitting in a GC warehouse for a long time. Would the strings be negatively impacted from that? Is putting on some new strings worth a try before returning it?
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Yes, a string change would be worthwhile as well as maybe a setup if the guitar “settled” at all in 2-3 years.
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
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Chris_T,
Second what Dave said. Strings that have been on a years-ignored guitar can already be in some corrosive process. If you don't have a favorite gauge to use or can't choose one, you might want to check around and see what string gauge the manufacturer recommends. In either event, at least you would end up with a known set of strings that you can use as a baseline going forward. And if the guitar feels off, getting a set-up on a new-to-you guitar is always a good thing.
Happy playing,
Don
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I agree with the previous two posts and would also add that, in my experience, changing strings to a different brand or gauge changes the sound no matter HOW old the previous strings were.
Also, I would first confirm that changing strings does not negate the return policy. And even more so a setup. Some dealers are very particular about that.
Best of luck!
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Thank you all for the feedback.
I have a set of D’Addario phosphor bronze custom lights here to try. They seems to fit within the parameters that Martin suggests.
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Thank you all for the feedback.
I have a set of D’Addario phosphor bronze custom lights here to try. They seems to fit within the parameters that Martin suggests.
Hey Chris,
This is a good choice, imho. Once strung, also consider trying strings with an 80/20 composition as these will sound brighter than PBs in general. Then there are also Elixir strings (in either 80/20 or PB composition) which tend to sound brighter (or perhaps more "crisp" is a better descriptor) than non-coated strings of the same compound.
FWIW, lots of folks try this or that to push/pull the tone the tone of their acoustics. But it is the string choice you use, both the compound and the gauge, that affects the tone of an acoustic most profoundly. In my opinion and experience, anyway. :)
Edward
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An update for anyone interested-
I spoke to Joe @ Empire Music today (to arrange shipping for my left-handed 618e which is done 🥳) so I asked his opinion on my Martin issue. This is what he thought:
1. The strings are absolutely dead considering the time element.
2. The guitar is probably dealing with humidity issues. His guess is that it has been sitting in an non-humidity controlled environment for a long time.
His suggestion was to place it in the case with humidity packs and leave it there for a month and then to restring. He seemed pretty confident that that would solve the problem and result in a satisfying result.
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An update for anyone interested-
I spoke to Joe @ Empire Music today (to arrange shipping for my left-handed 618e which is done 🥳) so I asked his opinion on my Martin issue. This is what he thought:
1. The strings are absolutely dead considering the time element.
2. The guitar is probably dealing with humidity issues. His guess is that it has been sitting in an non-humidity controlled environment for a long time.
His suggestion was to place it in the case with humidity packs and leave it there for a month and then to restring. He seemed pretty confident that that would solve the problem and result in a satisfying result.
A month?
That seems like an awfully long time.
GC has a 45 day return policy, and that clock probably starts ticking the day they ship it. If you wait a month, make sure you don't fall outside that 45 day window...
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Well...
When I bought it it was the last left-handed one available anywhere in the country (discontinued model) and I got a great price. Due to a very long delay in shipping it arrived later in the same day I left the country. So I didn’t get to see it until 6 weeks after it arrived.
My 45 days is up on Saturday. I feel good enough that it can be rehabbed and am willing to try since I can’t get another one. That may end up being a foolish decision. Time will tell.
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Being a rare discontinued lefty model, you are in a quandary. Unicorns don't come along every day, and it cannot be easily replaced in kind. Certainly the strings are dead by now, since it was built in 2018, even if they have never been played. Strings last pretty well when untouched, but that makes it even harder to judge tone character. I might very carefully change the strings to something that you know you like. A string change should be OK, but don't do anything to give them an excuse to deny the return - no mods or setup changes. Perhaps call them first to get that string change approved and let them know it is a last step before returning the guitar.
As for humidity, look across the top just below the bridge. There should be some arch (flat top guitars are not truly flat - there is roughly a 40-50 foot radius). A straightedge placed across the lower bout would have maybe 1/8" of clearance on both edges. If it is perfectly flat or if the bridge is sunken below flat, the guitar is dehydrated. If there is 1/4" of space (or more) the top is likely swollen, and that makes the sound suffer. There is a reason the phrase "stuffed full of socks" gets used to describe a very humid guitar. These are general guidelines, so don't get hung up on those exact dimensions.
FWIW I am also in the middle of a similar dilemma. I finally got a custom built [other brand] after waiting nine months for build and delivery. Unlike several other examples of the brand (including a pure stock version of the exact same model) this one came out exceedingly bright. If it were a stock model, I would have boxed it up and shipped it back the next day as unacceptable, but custom orders are not returnable. So I am trying various string types, questing for the mellowest possible string / alloy / gauge combination to best salvage the situation. One possible next step will be to replace the stock Tusq saddle with a bone saddle, but keep the same set of fairly fresh strings on it. Rule #1 for diagnostics is to change only one element at a time. Good luck with your decision, Chris. In the end, some examples of any given model are stellar and some are just duds.
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Thank you, Earl. Good things to know. I will play around with it tomorrow and check the arch out.
Living in southern Florida, where humidity is a year round thing, should be a help. The house is currently at 51% RH.
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51% RH inside the house is fine, assuming the guitar has been in those conditions for a couple of weeks already to acclimate. Martin (and others) build at 47% RH plus/minus 5% in the factory. There might be a tiny bit of top swelling, but not much.
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Hey Earl,
I checked the arch this morning and according to your earlier info it is swollen. Maybe a bit more than 1/4”.
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Yup, way too much dome and way too damp. You probably also have high action, because the bridge has moved upward.
Silica gel desiccant packs will be your friend until you get the guitar slowly down to about 45% RH for at least 2-3 weeks. As moisture content in the wood returns to normal the tone should wake up, aided by a fresh set of strings. A damp guitar is often described as "being stuffed full of socks" and that may well be the root cause of your poor tone. That will be well past your return window, however. Do ya feel lucky?
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I’m feeling pretty confident. (Or maybe it’s just gas).
She is currently ensconced in her case with 3 D’Addario two-way packs.
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Chris, I mentioned silica gel desiccant packs specifically to dry out your guitar. From what I've read (I won't use them myself in my guitar cases) the D'Addario / Planet Waves / Boveda Humidi-paks are about 5X more effective at releasing moisture than absorbing it. If the packs are squishy (not crunchy) they cannot absorb moisture. "Two-way" is a overblown marketing claim. I'm not sure you are really accomplishing anything right now. FYI.
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Gotcha. Those were put in yesterday prior to your advice.
Does the RH inside the case give any clue to effectiveness? It is currently 51%.
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51% or less inside the case is OK, but the RH could be lower. You are trying to actively dry out a wet guitar, so I would shoot for a sustained 40% RH in the case. All that is important is what your guitar experiences for the next couple of weeks. Silica gel packs will need to be recharged by slow mild heating (about 150°F for an hour) in the oven once they are saturated. Smaller packs will need drying more often, and bigger ones will last longer. It is all about the amount of water removed.
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Thanks again, Earl. I have some arriving tomorrow.
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I am admittedly a novice here , but I keep all my Taylor’s in there cases with humidipaks. My situation is different, battling low humidity in the cold Midwest. But I would not think a relative humidity if 51 % vs the ideal 47% would be any problem what so ever. I see anything from 40% to 55% on my hydrometers and I am a happy camper. Is there something else going on here?
I also keep silica gel packs on hand for humid summers , but wouldn’t sweat anything at 51 %.
Maybe I need some education here , how can +5 % matter that much?
Just askin...
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This is a bit of a unique situation. I am dealing with a swollen guitar so the goal is to reduce as much moisture as possible.
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Maybe I need some education here, how can +5 % matter that much?
It won't really matter. Our guitars are pretty safe anywhere between 40-60% indoor RH on a sustained basis. The ideal is around 47% because that is the condition under which they were built in the factory. I know a Colorado luthier that builds in an uncontrolled shop at 25% RH. His reasoning is that most of his guitars are bought and live locally, so building in very dry shop conditions prepares them to live safely that way throughout the dry west region. His guitars would probably swell and come apart in Honolulu or Miami.
My guitars - all brands - sound better to my ear at 40% than at 50%. And these targets are longer term running averages (days or weeks) not hourly fluctuations. My hygrometers show the house at ~37% in the morning having turned down the thermostat at night, but the house usually stays more like 42-45% once the daytime heat kicks on (or AC in the summer). Several of my guitars live out on wall hangers, and even the ones living in cases only get humidifying devices during the heavy heating months. It is nice living in a moderate environment after years in Alaska struggling to humidify.
Chris already explained above that he is trying to dry out an excessively wet guitar to remove some top swelling and improve the "dead" tone. My further point was that the two-way Humidi-paks... aren't really. They are good for adding humidity, but limited in their ability to absorb it again.
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^^^
FWIW, I agree with all Earl has said here. While RH is a necessary consideration for the overall "health" and playability of an acoustic, it need not be obsessed over, and it is about averages over time. A hygrometer (whose accuracy from unit to unit varies, to be sure), showing an average of 40-50% is plenty fine, and the occasional spike into 30s or 50s isn't cause for alarm. Again, it's about the sustained environment and what the guitar is exposed to on average.
Likewise, I personally feel RH into the 50-ish percentile deadens the tone a bit ...not drastically, but akin to old strings, if you will, IMO. And my guits (acoustics and electrics) have all been on wall mounts for maybe around 20 years now: all play perfectly well and suffer only by my putting hands on them ...just as one data point. ;)
But that's just my opinion and experience ...take it with copious grains of salt :D
Edward
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All my guitars seem to play quite well with case hygrometer readings in the 40 - 43% RH range.. They sometimes go higher or lower by a couple of percentage points, but these temporary excursions do not seem to cause any harm....
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I have now achieved 40% RH in the case with the silica desiccant packs inside.
I’m now going to leave the guitar there for 2 weeks and see what happens.
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Just an update of my experience with the Martin I was posting about-
Humidity issues were addressed and resolved and it still didn’t sound anywhere near good. I took it to a talented guitar tech who did a complete setup including lowering the saddle a significant amount.
It now sounds great and I’m very pleased. Thanks to all of you who helped!
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Happy for the good outcome, Chris. Most non-Taylor guitars need setup work.
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Happy for the good outcome, Chris. Most non-Taylor guitars need setup work.
He told me that Taylors are the only ones he sees that are perfectly setup right out of the box.