Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: antsap on March 24, 2017, 10:30:11 AM
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I've had my 814ce for about a year now. I've read a lot about all wood guitars opening up and finding their voice over time.
I'm curious what everyone's experience with this is. I'm sure it changes, but I'm also sure that its a very slow process which can get lost in the day to day playing of the guitar.
Sort of like how you don't notice that you've aged much until you look at a picture from 10 years ago :).
I wished I recorded my guitar the day I bought it after putting on a new pair of strings. I'd try to re-create the setup 2-3-5 years down the road and see if I could really hear a difference.
Maybe some of the change is also the player really getting to know the guitar and finding things they love in them that weren't obvious at first strum.
Can y'all really hear a big difference over time? Can anyone describe how the sound of a rosewood/spruce top noise box might change over time?
Thanks!
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I've had an 810e for a few months, and it's had a lot of playing in that time. Before I bought it, it had been hanging in the guitar shop for a while (several months, I think), and I imagine must have been played quite a bit by customers. I knew, after playing it for a while, that it was close to being my imagined dream instrument, so I bought it.
Of course the shop replaced the 810e I'd bought with a new one, which I tried on a subsequent visit, not quite fresh out of its packaging, but not far off. I was shocked by the difference. It sounded ... thin. What I loved about my 810 was its bloom; its chiming treble, delicate as bells; the room-shaking bass which was there when I asked for it. The new 810 in the shop was a nice guitar, but I couldn't have fallen in love with it.
Of course it was a different guitar - it wasn't my guitar. But what's interesting is that it's still there in the shop, now, weeks later, and it's definitely opening up. It doesn't sound as 'stiff'. It's slowly acquiring a bloom, a resonant, rounded chiming character of its own.
I'm uncertain about the claims made about improvements that occur over many years, but in the shorter term of weeks and months after new, gosh yes, very nice things really do seem to happen.
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i have a 2011 cedar top/eir back and sides 914ce.
out the box, the tone was beautiful. majestic, deep bass you could feel through the body of the guitar and transferred into your own body, mids with so much warmth they could melt igloos, and highs hat were bright and not ear piercing :)
the problem? the projection wasn't quite there (i almost wrote it wasn't "quiet" there haha)
there was a define volume difference between my 2010 414ce that was decently played in compared to my new out of the box 914ce. when strummed with moderately to aggressive (like for closing out a song) the 914ce did not sound good and would break up. (headroom limit)
it was like having a ferrari but with speed limit governed to 80. it was beautiful, sounded great, but you couldn't open up all the way. i tried selling it (very briefly) but was convinced by the village elders (michaelw and strumming fool) to keep it. i also found an article where bob taylor says he is disappointed in how fast players give up on their guitar instead of letting it open up.
so life got busy, i had some more kids, and getting a newer guitar fell down the priority pile. i still picked it up to play, but never long enough to be frustrated with the headroom.
so when day, randomly, had some time, so played and noticed that it projected more..so i tried driving it harder, and it no longer broke up. incredible...all it needed was time and some more playing. now, this will never leave the stable
in a much more succinct story, my 2010 414ce sitka/ovangkol had more pronounced low end (very similar to rosewood) and the highs sparkle more. it's as if the ovangkol range expanded even more over age.
those are my experiences. hope you enjoyed this ridiculous but very true post haha
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As you can see from my signature, I have guitars ranging in age from less than a year to over twenty years old. From my personal experience, they do change as they age, and if for the better, they stay. As a general rule, the spruces will more quickly display distinctive volume/tonal changes as they age, versus cedar and redwood, whose changes tend to be more subtle over time. The hardwoods, like koa or mahogany, typically take longer to mature, so patience is needed with them. For example, my 2014 K24 sounded great out of the box, and still sounds pretty much the same today to my ear - sweet and very balanced.
In my experience, a spruce/rosewood guitar will increase in bass and add sweetness and warmth to the higher end over time. They also tend to increase in volume, but again these are generalities. The more you play it, the more it'll sound like your guitar! So enjoy the journey!
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Does a guitar age better by taking it out of a controlled humidified environment frequently vs. keeping it in a controlled environment for long periods of time?
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Does a guitar age better by taking it out of a controlled humidified environment frequently vs. keeping it in a controlled environment for long periods of time?
everything i hear says playing is what does it..the exception is the torrefication process.
be careful with varying humidity environments...that can cause bad things to happen
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Not too long ago, I picked up an incredibly cheaply made acoustic at an antiques store. It was lying there all dusty. I guessed it might be 40 or more years old. Likely didn't cost more than $25 new. The wood was barely hanging together, the tuners were almost frozen up. It was some no name brand and likely was the classic "kid's starter" guitar. I strained to tune it up to pitch and gave it a strum. And then laughed out loud. My wife came back from where she was ahead of me. "What's so funny?" My answer? "That this guitar sounds so good". That wood had been through hell, but the resin had fully and I mean fully crystallized. It had a bell like tone to die for. Don't get me wrong, it's overtones couldn't match a higher end Taylor, but if you didn't know what it looked like you would be happy to play and own it. It would put any GS Mini to shame kind-of-good.
So, do they change over time? At different rates, but in general, yes they do. Bob Taylor likes to say "the worst any guitar will sound is the day you buy or play it for the first time."
There's two major components of this. One is the stress inherent in a built acoustic. As the wood acclimates and settles, the "system tension" caused by glued joints and other points of contacts can reach a more steady state equilibrium. This is exactly what ToneRite addresses, and is why you have to keep doing it to the guitar to make the effect last. It's a slow process, but ToneRite can temporarily speed it up, until you stop the vibrations and the "system" snaps back to where it was. You can even sometimes experience by playing a newer guitar by vigorously strumming for 5 or 10 minutes. You can sometimes actually hear it change.
The second component is what you ask about - the wood itself at the cellular level. Over time (10+ years typically) the resin (not the same as "sap") crystallizes and becomes harder. This can add more upper and lower partials and a more bell-like tone. It's what I heard in that cheap antique guitar.
Your mileage may vary guitar to guitar, but yes in general there will be a difference and many would say improvement over time.
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Does a guitar age better by taking it out of a controlled humidified environment frequently vs. keeping it in a controlled environment for long periods of time?
I think the best way to have the guitar open up is to take it out of the conrolled enviroment frequently and play it.
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Does a guitar age better by taking it out of a controlled humidified environment frequently vs. keeping it in a controlled environment for long periods of time?
everything i hear says playing is what does it..the exception is the torrefication process.
be careful with varying humidity environments...that can cause bad things to happen
Yes, I should have mentioned humidity levels that are safe and reasonable (ie. not outside the recommended ranges)
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Another one who believes that changes happen, but can vary from guitar to guitar and from wood to wood. Steven Stone once had an article in Vintage Guitar magazine (I believe) where he was able to compare 2 Martins from 1930's that were made at basically the same time. One had been used consistently since then. The other sat in a case under a bed almost the entire time. To him, they sounded the same. So, in that case, playing didn't have as much to do with it as the general aging of the woods.
But I've owned guitars that have sounded better the more I play them. My Taylor 150e sounds better now than when I purchased it. Projects more and a fuller tone. That's because I was performing with it quite a bit. My 320 on the other hand, sounds very close to where it was when I purchased it. Still love it, but it will be a while before any changes happen with that one, IMO.
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Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences on this topic. I guess the important thing is to make sure you like the sound of a guitar at the time you purchase it, and it can only get better from there.
Maybe its just time, or maybe playing does help. Either way ... I think I'll go play mine :)
- Cheers!
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I have been using a Tone Rite on my 314 and a like the results. When I pick it up to play it sounds like someone has been playing it for hours. The top feels responsive and it rings like a bell.
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FWIW....can't remember where/who I heard it from but I was told some of the Bluegrass "Old Timers" used to put their new guitars in front of a radio when they weren't gonna be home during the day to speed up the "opening up" process.
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The most obvious way my 1995 Cotten 612c and 2000 914c have changed is visually. No, they're not beat up, though they have earned a few small purple hearts. The 914's Englemann top was a creamy white when I first got it. It's now a soft butter-yellow. The 612's Sitka top had already begun it's color change when I got it in 2003, and that process has continued. Neither looks like a pre-war Marin, but there is no mistaking my Taylors for new ones. I like the gradual color change. May as well, can't change it!
Have my Taylors "opened up?" Yes, probably, though it has been so gradual that I really didn't notice it at the time. When I did notice it on the 914 was about a year ago. I visited a shop in Atlanta that had a new one. I didn't want to leave mine in the car to get hot in the Georgia sun, so I asked if I could bring it inside. It was checked carefully, then allowed in. I really liked the new 914's appointments, but not enough to want to trade mine for it. When the sales guy heard that I had a 16-yr. old 914, he asked me to get it out so we could A/B it with the new one.
I would not be surprised if years from now Andy Powers' modifications to today's 914s will make them even better, but to be honest, I preferred the tone of my older one. Was it "opening up?" The Englemann top vs. today's Sitka? The small differences in even "identical" models of amazingly consistent Taylors? Who knows! (I do prefer the Cindy inlay on mine, but that's purely cosmetic.)
So to get back to the original question,"How much does your all wood Taylor really change with age?" I can confidently say, "I don't know!"
cotten
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FWIW....can't remember where/who I heard it from but I was told some of the Bluegrass "Old Timers" used to put their new guitars in front of a radio when they weren't gonna be home during the day to speed up the "opening up" process.
I have a 40 year old Martin I have had since it was new and did this. Laid it across a stereo speaker for 8-10 hours a day for longer than I can remember. IMHO it worked. My neighbor wasn't too happy since I had the stereo cranked, lol.
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I always heard "good fences make good neighbors" apparently so does good soundproofing!
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"I have a 40 year old Martin I have had since it was new and did this. Laid it across a stereo speaker for 8-10 hours a day for longer than I can remember. IMHO it worked. My neighbor wasn't too happy since I had the stereo cranked, lol."
Thanks for the tip - hadn't thought of trying this "technique" to loosen up my 8 month old 414ce.
So, damx the neighbors 8) this is important!
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I have been using a Tone Rite on my 314 and a like the results. When I pick it up to play it sounds like someone has been playing it for hours. The top feels responsive and it rings like a bell.
A lot of people say they hear a marked difference, especially in new guitars, after "treating" them with a Tonerite. Their web site lists a few well known names who agree. https://www.tonerite.com/ In fairness, not everyone agrees. I don't own one, but Tim McKnight says that using one on his fine custom guitars helps teach them that they are no longer trees in a lot shorter time than playing alone would do, especially initially. I trust his wisdom and experience on such things.
cotten
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I've owned my 714ce for about a month and I already notice a substantial difference. The guitar sustains notes longer and the bass has mellowed out. it could have been a string change that I did a few days ago. Swapped out elixirs for a different brand. ;)
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I have been using a Tone Rite on my 314 and a like the results. When I pick it up to play it sounds like someone has been playing it for hours. The top feels responsive and it rings like a bell.
A lot of people say they hear a marked difference, especially in new guitars, after "treating" them with a Tonerite. Their web site lists a few well known names who agree. https://www.tonerite.com/ In fairness, not everyone agrees. I don't own one, but Tim McKnight says that using one on his fine custom guitars helps teach them that they are no longer trees in a lot shorter time than playing alone would do, especially initially. I trust his wisdom and experience on such things.
cotten
If it's one thing I've learned on forums, a lot of people say everything. 8) There are at least 1,000,000 forum posts on Tonerite, both for and against, on guitar forums. Google it, you'll be busy for weeks....
As I posted earlier in this thread, there are two components of a guitar "opening up" or changing over time, and Tonerite could only possibly address one of the components, if that:
"There's two major components of this. One is the stress inherent in a built acoustic. As the wood acclimates and settles, the "system tension" caused by glued joints and other points of contacts can reach a more steady state equilibrium. This is exactly what ToneRite addresses, and is why you have to keep doing it to the guitar to make the effect last. It's a slow process, but ToneRite can temporarily speed it up, until you stop the vibrations and the "system" snaps back to where it was. You can even sometimes experience by playing a newer guitar by vigorously strumming for 5 or 10 minutes. You can sometimes actually hear it change.
The second component is what you ask about - the wood itself at the cellular level. Over time (10+ years typically) the resin (not the same as "sap") crystallizes and becomes harder. This can add more upper and lower partials and a more bell-like tone. It's what I heard in that cheap antique guitar.
Your mileage may vary guitar to guitar, but yes in general there will be a difference and many would say improvement over time. "
Most, including Tonerite, would agree any effect it has on a guitar is mostly temporary, which is why you have to keep doing it. And this re-enforces what it does and doesn't address.
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Oh, I'm very aware of the varying opinions on Tonerite. That's why I mentioned them, and why I mentioned that after he completes a guitar, Tim McKnight likes to use one on his guitars before he ships them out. He thinks it's worth the effort. Some don't. That's all I'm saying.
cotten
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All wood guitars (instruments) change over time. This is greatly impacted by the environment they are kept in. A older, vintage acoustic kept in a decent environment, room temp and about 50% humidity, will resonate more than a new guitar. This is largely due to the fibers in the wood. They start out compressed and tight. This is good for the strength of a tree but not for tone. Over time the fibers loosen up and provide more space for the wood to resonate. This is often referred to as the guitar opening up. The more it is played the fast it will open up due to the vibration from the strings. Some people will put their guitar in front of speakers and play music into them to loosen it up. There are also systems you can purchase that do this as well.