Is anyone else frustrated with the lack of torrefied options available?

[All Together]

You do realize it's only been a year since Taylor did any torrified tops? My guess is it is "early days" for them - limited capacity to roast the tops for now and they're focused on the 600 series for the most part given that, which I imagine has beat their forecasts for units. I'm pretty sure I saw a video interview where Andy Powers implied much more to come, it's ready for prime time, etc. So patience will be a virtue, I'm sure we'll see it in other new releases and eventually BTO options, but who knows when. Taylor's philosophy with quality control and consistency ultimately is a good thing!

Likewise it's only been one year since Martin did them, and they are now offering it on Authentics, limiteds, and any model you like through their Custom Shop. For the largest guitar company in America, I find it hard to believe it's the lack of resources that's the issue. I just think Taylor are using their current business model to their advantage... If Maple isn't selling well, torrefy Maple. If Rosewood is doing OK, leave torrefication out for now. Next year come out with it so we can resell all the 800 series all over again.

[All Together]

imho, i don't see this happening, or at least not for this reason -
using martin's custom guitar configurator
https://www.martinguitar.com/custom-shop-114/build-your-custom.html

a guitar with a mahogany neck & ebony fretboard & bridge,
with absolutely no options, retails at just under a standard 856ce -
i don't see a GP (grand performance) body shape,
which is closest, but not quite identical, to a GA
https://www.martinguitar.com/featuresmaterials/featuresmaterials/sizetype.html

or a VTS (Taylor's torrefied)
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/featuresmaterials/vintage-tone-system-vts.html

or 'vintage gloss finish' option (Taylor's 3.5 mil)
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/featuresmaterials/vintage-gloss-finish.html

i'm pretty sure Taylor is selling all they build & then some, so i doubt that they're
too concerned about 'losing customers', especially with the additions to the 300s
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/322e-12-fret-seb
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/326e-baritone-6-seb
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/360e-seb
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/314ce-rw-ltd

& 400s
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/410-r
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/410e-r
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/412-r
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/412e-r

imho, martins are fine guitars -
i've played a bunch of them, owned a few &
have a 98 SWD that's not going anywhere

there's nothing wrong with diversity & i think it'd be
a pretty boring place if everyone played the same guitar -
what i have noticed is that with some artists that have played
Taylors & other brands, to my ear, more often than not, they
sound better (to me) playing another brand because their
style of play seems to have a better fit with something other
than a more modern tone that's maintained when plugged in

i have a few older Taylors that have tonal & aesthetic cues from
other builders & even with an original body shape (GA), there is
more depth, warmth & projection on the examples i have than
some players may relate to when it comes to Taylor's 'signature tone' -
within the past few years (the last couple especially), there have
been some pretty significant changes to Taylor's line (shapes,
appointments, build processes) & seeing that the number
of guitars made & sold continues to increase each year
(last i heard i think they're at 150,000 +), they're doing well

ymmv

torrefied tops are now being used by a number of builders &
some are more affordable than others, but the process is 'valid'
https://reverb.com/item/1439001-recording-king-rp1-16c-solid-adirondack-spruce-top-0-body-parlor-acoustic-guitar?_aid=pla&currency=USD&pla=1&gclid=CKLa4J7z6MkCFUiFfgodayUJvQ
http://www.elderly.com/recording-king-rd-t16-dreadnought.htm

i'm curious to see what specs you have in mind for your martin -
they sure can build some nice looking, playing & sounding ones
http://www.samash.com/limited-edition-custom-shop-ss-gp42-15-grand-performance-acoustic-electric-guitar--50-of-50-sn1884020-m1884020x?cm_mmc=GoogleShopping-_-Guitars-_-Channeladvisor-_-Martin+Limited+Edition+Custom+Shop+SS-GP42-15+Grand+Performance+Acoustic-Electric+Guitar+&gclid=CK_O8aLy6MkCFY17fgod4yUIGQ#50+of+50+SN:1884020&utm_source=GSH&utm_medium=CSE&utm_campaign=Channeladvisor&CAWELAID=500002510000042405&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=500002510000023522&cadevice=c

Martin's custom shop builder on their website is unreliable. They have a "BTO sheet," as such, which is available from dealers. For example, if you just take a standard D-18 or D-28 and add a torrefied top, you get very close to the price of the non-torrefied versions.

I have ordered a custom European (VTS)/Mahogany GP.

[All Together]

I would be shocked if a potential Taylor buyer went to a Martin because of a torrified top.  There are plenty of folks who prefer the Martin sound (and they probably aren't shopping for Taylors anyway.)  But for a player to say "I'm going to buy a Martin instead of a Taylor because the Martin has a torrified top" would be crazy.  Most of us buy based on sound, not construction method.

I'm not one of those people who think it's cool to say I'm a Martin fan or I'm a Taylor fan. To be honest I don't feel they're all that different in tone either - you can get a bright Martin in the OM shape, and you can get a deep Taylor in the GS shape.

Torrefied tops are all about sound.

It's actually quite sad how many Taylor players will feel the need to camp themselves into one brand and that automatically means they won't consider the main competitor, and vice versa. People like you are the ones who are missing out on the beauty of owning guitars from multiple companies and varities when you are a brand loyalist.

[All Together]

Which is also pretty much the point I've made. You're not going to switch brands based on something like that. It's still going to sound like a Taylor, just a slightly older Taylor.

Nick

If I decide an iPhone lacks a feature I want which is available on a Samsung, I will buy the Samsung, despite their different operating system. You say I'm not going to switch brands based on something like this, well guess what? I am, and have, ordered a custom Martin, because I can't get a torrefied European/Mahogany GA (similar to the Fall 2013 European/Mahogany limited model) so I've gone through Martin's custom shop. That proves your theory wrong.

[ntotoro]

We in this forum are the fringe players. The vast majority don't care about torrified tops or can even tell the difference between maple and mahogany with their ears. They see pretty and oohs and ahhhhs...

Nick

Well for what it's worth, here's what Taylor has to say about it, and I tend to believe their judgment:

"Torrefaction is a roasting technique that greatly accelerates this process, enabling a new guitar to sound much older. Andy Powers developed his own recipe for torrefying spruce tops on the 600 Series. The result is a more efficient energy transfer from the strings, which makes the top incredibly responsive, as though the notes are virtually falling out of the guitar when you play. "

You might not care about it, but if it does what it claims, then I don't see why you WOULDN'T want it on your guitar.

Want? Maybe, I haven't played enough guitars with them and it's even more difficult to quantify? Need? Not really and don't forget it's still a marketing aspect for manufacturers. You either like one sound or another and a torrified top isn't going to make a 614ce sound like a D28.

Nick

[ntotoro]

Ironically funny... this morning I played a brand-new figured mahogany Bourgeois with a torrified adi spruce top. Pretty guitar... really pretty (Country Boy). It also happened to be the brightest guitar I think I've ever played in my life. Sucker was LOUD for such a small-bodied guitar, though. Wholesale price on it was more than I've ever paid street for a guitar. Oohfahhhh....

Nick

Nice, do you mind if I ask which dealer it is at?

I've only played one Country Boy in the past, a non-torrefied version, it wasn't particularly my cup of tea as it seemed too "balanced" for my tastes, didn't feel like a Dreadnought to me.

The Fret Shop in Winchester, Va, right around the corner from my home. Jon just got it last week and hadn't even put it out for sale yet.

Nick

[Strumming Fool]

It's actually quite sad how many Taylor players will feel the need to camp themselves into one brand and that automatically means they won't consider the main competitor, and vice versa. People like you are the ones who are missing out on the beauty of owning guitars from multiple companies and varities when you are a brand loyalist.

Let's be careful with the phrase "People like you..."  For example, I have owned up to five different brands of acoustic guitars at any given time. I have come to realize that the Taylor GA works best for my purposes. I continue to test-drive other brands that garner my respect, and perhaps I won't be an exclusive Taylor player again one day. Please don't discount the experiences (of which you may not be aware) of other folks on this forum. Besides, there are many one-branded players associated with brands other than Taylor. Believe me, I've met many of them!

Merry Christmas to you and family!

[All Together]

Well, in case anybody's interested, I finally received my custom Martin.  I would have liked to have gone with Taylor, but the lack of options (no torrefied tops, no AP bracing, no thin finish) meant the competitor got my money.

The torrefied top is very nice, I hear a lot of overtone content.  The specs are:

Top:
Swiss - Premium FSC (High Altitude) - V.T.S. (Torrefied)

Braces:
Golden Era Shape (Adirondack)

Back and Sides:
Mahogany

Body:
Style 18 (minus vintage toner, tuner washers, pickguard, fretboard side dots)

Authentic Features:
Cloth side strips
Thin finish package

As a comparison to a torrefied Taylor 614CE I played recently, I won't say it's better than the Taylor - in fact, for nice crispy strumming I would prefer the Taylor and for slow, beautiful fingerstyle I prefer the Martin.  I really think Taylor should keep up with market demands, however, otherwise it will continue losing customers such as myself as we are only able to buy certain features on their standard series, which may have other features some customers such as myself may not find attractive (e.g. the horizontally wide fretboard inlays on the 600s and 800s instead of simple, non-imposing dots).

[guitarsrsoawesome]

I was thinking about this issue the other day and talking about it with a buddy who has three martins at the moment and I think has owned at least three others in the past (I also used to have a 000-15sm that I absolutely loved but stupidly sold). 

We were talking about a possible reason for Taylor limiting torrefication only to the 600 series while Martin is offering it guitar wide and it occurred to me that Taylor is purposely doing this for the time being to ensure that the 600 in its new iteration meets their sales goals. 

I'm not sure how big an investment retooling the series was, but I have a feeling a lot of money and human resources went into its launch and for the time being they want to make sure the uniqueness of the series is maintained until it is well established and sales are meeting expectations. 

Once that's achieved I have a feeling they will make torrefaction (am I making up words here?) an option through multiple series and especially in the BTO process.  Anybody agree?

[Strumming Fool]

Sounds like a reasonable assumption. For me, the jury is still out on torrified tops. I have compared several examples to their non-torrified counterparts and wondered what the big deal is. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I have always enjoyed a guitar's aging process over time. I like hearing that transformation as a guitar matures. I'm not sure if this is a passing fad, and perhaps Taylor is also adopting a wait and see approach here.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

It's funny you say that, SF, because I also feel part of the fun of a guitar is experiencing that aging process over time and enjoying the change from a great sounding guitar to an even greater sounding guitar.  I'm noticing it with my current cedar top.  Every day I pick it up it seems to sound better and it's only a few years old.  I know it makes more sense to some that the torrification process brings your guitar to that point out of the box, but I agree with you that there's something about playing the guitar to that point that's really satisfying...yes, we are probably old fashioned.

[Strumming Fool]

I'm also of the belief (no scientific proof, mind you) that a guitar's aging process is impacted by its environment and by the owner's playing style. I once heard an old archtop Martin (yes they existed at one time) whose previous owner was Dion DiMucci, who is a fabulous guitar player, BTW. I was amazed at how well this jazz guitar responded when I played some "Dion licks" from his folk music period. So I like to believe that I actually put my "signature" into a guitar's tone as it ages in my hands. I'd rather do this myself than rely on an artificial process to do it for me - yep, I am old -fashioned!

[Earl]

Great point, SF.  I too wonder if torrefaction is just the "flavor of the month" latest fad.  Torrefaction -- cooking the wood -- will artificially age it, but not in the exact same ways as playing (vibration) combined with simple time will.  I've also read that torrefied tops are somewhat more brittle and glue doesn't stick to them as well.  Do they need to be a different thickness or have different bracing for optimal performance?  Will there be more warranty claims down the road?  No one really knows yet.

So torrefied wood might be fine for smaller scale mostly hand-built boutique shops like Santa Cruz or Bourgeois or Collings, or maybe even the custom shop at Martin, but not so good for large scale factory production.  I buy my guitars for how they sound NOW, not how they might sound a few years down the road.  And I'm willing to let time do its thing.

I'm glad that All Together (the OP) finally got his custom Martin, because he was clearly never going to be happy with Taylor over this issue.

[ntotoro]

I do have one guitar with a torrified top now... a Bourgois Country Boy OM with a torrified top, thin finish and hide glue construction (not the same Bourgeois I mentioned earlier in this thread). I think it's still up for debate whether the top makes that guitar, but it's a magical instrument and is absolutely fantastic with everything I play on it. I wonder whether it's just the latest fad still and obviously can't quantify how much the top adds to it. I wouldn't put money on the top alone taking the guitar over the proverbial cliff. The same time, I don't see a real stampede of a market demand for artificially aged tops.

Nick

[Strumming Fool]

I do have one guitar with a torrified top now... a Bourgois Country Boy OM with a torrified top, thin finish and hide glue construction (not the same Bourgeois I mentioned earlier in this thread). I think it's still up for debate whether the top makes that guitar, but it's a magical instrument and is absolutely fantastic with everything I play on it. I wonder whether it's just the latest fad still and obviously can't quantify how much the top adds to it. I wouldn't put money on the top alone taking the guitar over the proverbial cliff. The same time, I don't see a real stampede of a market demand for artificially aged tops.

Nick

Thanks for the observation, Nick. I actually test drove several Bourgeois OMs, and one among them had a torrified top (and a much higher price tag). I also played some Collings OMs (no torrified tops there). Ironically, one of the Collings OMs was the best-sounding guitar on that particular day. As you indicated, there are too many influencing factors that contradict the theory that any one of them represents the magic bullet for a great guitar versus a good guitar. I'm sure your Bourgeois is a great guitar. I've played many Bourgeois instruments, and I would place them at the apex of small to medium sized builders.