Is anyone else frustrated with the lack of torrefied options available?

[All Together]

At the moment torrefied tops are only available on the 600 series and limited 700 series.

I want to get a Custom Shop build to get the exact things I want (for example, I don't like the inlay on the back of the headstock/neck on the 600 series, and I also prefer other tonewoods over Maple), but because the option isn't available (and neither is Advanced Performance bracing), my next guitar will be through the Martin Custom Shop. True, Authentic bracing isn't available either, but you can choose VTS tops, and the GA shape is also available.

I feel like this is where Taylor will lose a lot of customers to Martin. I guess their perspective is that they're able to make more money by limiting these options to the 600 series and bracing to the 800 series so that people are forced to buy these series if they want it with their Abalone rosettes and fretboard inlays and other upcharges, thus increasing their profit margin.

[ntotoro]

We in this forum are the fringe players. The vast majority don't care about torrified tops or can even tell the difference between maple and mahogany with their ears. They see pretty and oohs and ahhhhs...

Nick

[mgap]

Torrified tops are relatively new and I am not so sure the guitar playing largess wants to spend extra bucks for it.  I also think that many of the guitar players in the world do not really know about it, which leads me to the fact that many companies are not going to jump on it till there is more demand.

[timfitz63]

My understanding is that the torrefication process sonically 'ages' the wood -- gives it a more 'played-in' quality straight out of the box, so to speak.  It may be that this was part of the re-voicing formula for the 600 Series, meant to help diminish the characteristic brightness of Maple; and that torrefied tops weren't viewed as necessary for other series where the body woods are not as bright-sounding.

Personally, I like a brighter-sounding guitar.  And since the only guitars I've personally heard that use a torrefied top are the re-voiced 600 Series, I've not become drawn to them as a BTO design element.  But like any good business, should Taylor receive enough requests for torrefied tops or AP bracing in the BTO line, they will probably change their tune and offer the option.  Unfortunately, it may take patience on the part of folks like you who want that option today...

[jjrpilot-admin]

Honestly, I think a lot of guitar companies are still experimenting with the torrefaction process. Over on the AGF there was a good thread in which a couple of luthiers mentioned that torrefied wood may have trouble long term holding in place with the glue. The debate was still out.

I wouldn't mind having a torrefied top someday but there's a apart of me that enjoys the aging process.....getting a new guitar and then listening to it as it matures etc.  😀

[ntotoro]

Ironically funny... this morning I played a brand-new figured mahogany Bourgeois with a torrified adi spruce top. Pretty guitar... really pretty (Country Boy). It also happened to be the brightest guitar I think I've ever played in my life. Sucker was LOUD for such a small-bodied guitar, though. Wholesale price on it was more than I've ever paid street for a guitar. Oohfahhhh....

Nick

[Guitarsan]

You do realize it's only been a year since Taylor did any torrified tops? My guess is it is "early days" for them - limited capacity to roast the tops for now and they're focused on the 600 series for the most part given that, which I imagine has beat their forecasts for units. I'm pretty sure I saw a video interview where Andy Powers implied much more to come, it's ready for prime time, etc. So patience will be a virtue, I'm sure we'll see it in other new releases and eventually BTO options, but who knows when. Taylor's philosophy with quality control and consistency ultimately is a good thing!

[michaelw]

... Taylor will lose a lot of customers to Martin. I guess their perspective is that they're able to make more money by limiting these options to the 600 series and bracing to the 800 series so that people are forced to buy these series if they want it with their Abalone rosettes and fretboard inlays and other upcharges, thus increasing their profit margin.

imho, i don't see this happening, or at least not for this reason -
using martin's custom guitar configurator
https://www.martinguitar.com/custom-shop-114/build-your-custom.html

a guitar with a mahogany neck & ebony fretboard & bridge,
with absolutely no options, retails at just under a standard 856ce -
i don't see a GP (grand performance) body shape,
which is closest, but not quite identical, to a GA
https://www.martinguitar.com/featuresmaterials/featuresmaterials/sizetype.html

or a VTS (Taylor's torrefied)
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/featuresmaterials/vintage-tone-system-vts.html

or 'vintage gloss finish' option (Taylor's 3.5 mil)
https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/featuresmaterials/vintage-gloss-finish.html

i'm pretty sure Taylor is selling all they build & then some, so i doubt that they're
too concerned about 'losing customers', especially with the additions to the 300s
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/322e-12-fret-seb
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/326e-baritone-6-seb
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/360e-seb
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/314ce-rw-ltd

& 400s
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/410-r
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/410e-r
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/412-r
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/412e-r

imho, martins are fine guitars -
i've played a bunch of them, owned a few &
have a 98 SWD that's not going anywhere

there's nothing wrong with diversity & i think it'd be
a pretty boring place if everyone played the same guitar -
what i have noticed is that with some artists that have played
Taylors & other brands, to my ear, more often than not, they
sound better (to me) playing another brand because their
style of play seems to have a better fit with something other
than a more modern tone that's maintained when plugged in

i have a few older Taylors that have tonal & aesthetic cues from
other builders & even with an original body shape (GA), there is
more depth, warmth & projection on the examples i have than
some players may relate to when it comes to Taylor's 'signature tone' -
within the past few years (the last couple especially), there have
been some pretty significant changes to Taylor's line (shapes,
appointments, build processes) & seeing that the number
of guitars made & sold continues to increase each year
(last i heard i think they're at 150,000 +), they're doing well

ymmv

torrefied tops are now being used by a number of builders &
some are more affordable than others, but the process is 'valid'
https://reverb.com/item/1439001-recording-king-rp1-16c-solid-adirondack-spruce-top-0-body-parlor-acoustic-guitar?_aid=pla&currency=USD&pla=1&gclid=CKLa4J7z6MkCFUiFfgodayUJvQ
http://www.elderly.com/recording-king-rd-t16-dreadnought.htm

i'm curious to see what specs you have in mind for your martin -
they sure can build some nice looking, playing & sounding ones
http://www.samash.com/limited-edition-custom-shop-ss-gp42-15-grand-performance-acoustic-electric-guitar--50-of-50-sn1884020-m1884020x?cm_mmc=GoogleShopping-_-Guitars-_-Channeladvisor-_-Martin+Limited+Edition+Custom+Shop+SS-GP42-15+Grand+Performance+Acoustic-Electric+Guitar+&gclid=CK_O8aLy6MkCFY17fgod4yUIGQ#50+of+50+SN:1884020&utm_source=GSH&utm_medium=CSE&utm_campaign=Channeladvisor&CAWELAID=500002510000042405&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=500002510000023522&cadevice=c

[lmacmil]

I feel like this is where Taylor will lose a lot of customers to Martin. I guess their perspective is that they're able to make more money by limiting these options to the 600 series and bracing to the 800 series so that people are forced to buy these series if they want it with their Abalone rosettes and fretboard inlays and other upcharges, thus increasing their profit margin.

I would be shocked if a potential Taylor buyer went to a Martin because of a torrified top.  There are plenty of folks who prefer the Martin sound (and they probably aren't shopping for Taylors anyway.)  But for a player to say "I'm going to buy a Martin instead of a Taylor because the Martin has a torrified top" would be crazy.  Most of us buy based on sound, not construction method.

[ntotoro]

I feel like this is where Taylor will lose a lot of customers to Martin. I guess their perspective is that they're able to make more money by limiting these options to the 600 series and bracing to the 800 series so that people are forced to buy these series if they want it with their Abalone rosettes and fretboard inlays and other upcharges, thus increasing their profit margin.

I would be shocked if a potential Taylor buyer went to a Martin because of a torrified top.  There are plenty of folks who prefer the Martin sound (and they probably aren't shopping for Taylors anyway.)  But for a player to say "I'm going to buy a Martin instead of a Taylor because the Martin has a torrified top" would be crazy.  Most of us buy based on sound, not construction method.

Which is also pretty much the point I've made. You're not going to switch brands based on something like that. It's still going to sound like a Taylor, just a slightly older Taylor.

Nick

[All Together]

We in this forum are the fringe players. The vast majority don't care about torrified tops or can even tell the difference between maple and mahogany with their ears. They see pretty and oohs and ahhhhs...

Nick

Well for what it's worth, here's what Taylor has to say about it, and I tend to believe their judgment:

"Torrefaction is a roasting technique that greatly accelerates this process, enabling a new guitar to sound much older. Andy Powers developed his own recipe for torrefying spruce tops on the 600 Series. The result is a more efficient energy transfer from the strings, which makes the top incredibly responsive, as though the notes are virtually falling out of the guitar when you play. "

You might not care about it, but if it does what it claims, then I don't see why you WOULDN'T want it on your guitar.

[All Together]

Torrified tops are relatively new and I am not so sure the guitar playing largess wants to spend extra bucks for it.  I also think that many of the guitar players in the world do not really know about it, which leads me to the fact that many companies are not going to jump on it till there is more demand.

The point of my post though, is that Taylor is slower than Martin to take it up, and it is clear that many Martin players are demanding it, hence why it's virtually on almost every new limited edition or NAMM show Martin that's been coming out. Bourgeois have been doing it for several years and apparently 50% of their orders are for torrefied tops.

[All Together]

My understanding is that the torrefication process sonically 'ages' the wood -- gives it a more 'played-in' quality straight out of the box, so to speak.  It may be that this was part of the re-voicing formula for the 600 Series, meant to help diminish the characteristic brightness of Maple; and that torrefied tops weren't viewed as necessary for other series where the body woods are not as bright-sounding.

Personally, I like a brighter-sounding guitar.  And since the only guitars I've personally heard that use a torrefied top are the re-voiced 600 Series, I've not become drawn to them as a BTO design element.  But like any good business, should Taylor receive enough requests for torrefied tops or AP bracing in the BTO line, they will probably change their tune and offer the option.  Unfortunately, it may take patience on the part of folks like you who want that option today...

You say you think torrefied tops aren't viewed as necessary for other series where the body woods are not as bright sounding... I am willing to bet money that it will eventually be available for other woods, and when Taylor does finally do it they will say it's an upgrade, like they're saying for the Maple series.

From what I'm reading, torrefaction brings out the responsiveness of a guitar. If the guitar is a bright guitar, it will sound louder, more "energized" as such... The brightness being lost on the 600 series has largely been attributed (by Powers) to be due to the change in bracing.

You're right, it either requires patience, or for those of us who want to be playing guitars now and not in one year's time, we just have to look to alternatives like Martin. I have an R Taylor, so it's not a question of not having the money to buy the best, but can you imagine a cell phone company not keeping up with their competitor's developments? Consumers aren't going to wait, they'll simply go to the competitor.

[All Together]

Honestly, I think a lot of guitar companies are still experimenting with the torrefaction process. Over on the AGF there was a good thread in which a couple of luthiers mentioned that torrefied wood may have trouble long term holding in place with the glue. The debate was still out.

I wouldn't mind having a torrefied top someday but there's a apart of me that enjoys the aging process.....getting a new guitar and then listening to it as it matures etc.  😀

Do you think torrefied tops won't mature with age? Many people have claimed that the tone of old Martins is due to the drying out of the minerals in the wood or whatever... But does anyone actually know this for a fact, or is it just that because torrefication is out, people are now starting to attribute it to the drying out process?

For example, if that really is the case, why do people generally say Sinker Mahogany or Sinker Redwood sounds fantastic? If anything, it should sound worse than regular Mahogany and Redwood due to NOT being dried out over the years.

[All Together]

Ironically funny... this morning I played a brand-new figured mahogany Bourgeois with a torrified adi spruce top. Pretty guitar... really pretty (Country Boy). It also happened to be the brightest guitar I think I've ever played in my life. Sucker was LOUD for such a small-bodied guitar, though. Wholesale price on it was more than I've ever paid street for a guitar. Oohfahhhh....

Nick

Nice, do you mind if I ask which dealer it is at?

I've only played one Country Boy in the past, a non-torrefied version, it wasn't particularly my cup of tea as it seemed too "balanced" for my tastes, didn't feel like a Dreadnought to me.