What am i not getting

[TaylorGirl]

I agree with your comment, Nomad. We support our local dealer (maybe a little too much, because they have gotten quite a bit of our money since 1974, when I started going there). 

[Nomad]

Not everyone knows the appropriate price range.

This is a real sore spot for me.

The "appropriate price range" is one which permits the customer and the dealer to make a fair deal. All too often, customers could care less about their dealer making a fair profit.

Most of the case, you can get XX% off from the list price on new ones. You should expect XX% off for the used one assuming in excellent condition.

And this is why. Consumers believe they should be allowed to "expect" something. How about "expecting" a fair deal? I've got news for you. If a dealer only makes a couple hundred bucks when he sells a guitar which has a list price of a few thousand, that's not a fair deal, but it's what consumers have been told to "expect", and that's bad business...

What the buyer expects is only half of the equation, though, Nomad. In economics, the underlying assumption is that a rational buyer will look out for his/her best interests and a rational seller will look out for his/her own best interests. Given this, the onus is on the seller to ensure he receives a price that is sufficient to make the transaction worthwhile. And anyone who's been around business for a while will know that that "sufficient price" will change from one day to the next as cash flows (and the need for cash flows) change.

Once upon a time, there was a very real value in the retailer/customer relationship. That simply doesn't exist anymore. I see people talking about how they bought a guitar from this great dealer or that great dealer, and how the service was outstanding and how they "WILL buy from them again".

Well, all it would take is for someone else to knock $50.00 off the first guy's price, and the allegiance will change. Period. It's the nature of what has become a very nasty beast. The only thing important now is what comes after the dollar sign. Period.

I saw on another forum how someone was saying how they could get what has become known as the "standard" discount on a K28e First Edition. How? More importantly, why? Taylor hadn't even shipped them, and this guy was talking about how he wouldn't buy it without that discount. To me, that devalues the instrument and cheapens the idea of it being limited.

The deterioration of the customer/retailer relationship lies more heavily with the customer, because there will always be a dealer out there who will be willing to slit his own throat to cater to them.

[Nomad]

I agree with your comment, Nomad. We support our local dealer (maybe a little too much, because they have gotten quite a bit of our money since 1974, when I started going there).

Good for you!!

AND for HIM!

[tedtan]

The dealer has to provide something the customer values in addition to the guitar in order to charge more for his products than similar products sold elsewhere. Don't blame the customer if the dealer isn't providing added value. If he just moves guitars, he is commoditizing his inventory, and in that situation price-based competition is to be expected - it's the only thing left on which to compete.

Having said that, I worked at a guitar store for a few months between high school and college and the big discounts were available back then, too (mid 90s, before GC came to town) - most people just didn't know to ask for them. This particular retailer would even mark down all instruments to ten dollars over their cost come Christmas time just to move inventory. So even back then, volume was important, not just a large markup.

[MexicoMike]

"The deterioration of the customer/retailer relationship lies more heavily with the customer,"

You might as well blame a customer for getting sick from eating bad food at a restaurant.  The business owes it's existence to customers, not the other way around.  As noted in the previous post, if you are going to charge more for the same item, there has to be some perceived value added that the customer WANTS to pay for - service, convenience, repair, good selection, etc.  Otherwise, it just becomes a business hoping for dumb customers.  

[Nomad]

"The deterioration of the customer/retailer relationship lies more heavily with the customer,"

You might as well blame a customer for getting sick from eating bad food at a restaurant.  The business owes it's existence to customers, not the other way around.  As noted in the previous post, if you are going to charge more for the same item, there has to be some perceived value added that the customer WANTS to pay for - service, convenience, repair, good selection, etc.  Otherwise, it just becomes a business hoping for dumb customers.

If that's what you think I should do, fine, I will. It's not nearly the same thing, though.

Customers are interested in one thing: Price. Period. They no longer care nearly as much about "value", which is comprised of far more than just the price they paid for a guitar.

Someone who holds out for a dirt cheap price isn't doing the dealer any favors. The dealer has to make money to remain viable. That's something that customers are well aware of, they just don't care. If they did, they wouldn't be having their new guitars shipped to them from all over the country. They would establish and nurture a relationship with their local guy. But that's not what happens at all.

Instead, they'll grind the guy on price, all the while swearing up and down that they're trying to support the dealer. They'll claim they want to buy the guitar from him which, of course, isn't true. They want to buy it from whoever will drop their price the lowest, which is never doing a service to the dealer. I don't take issue with people who are up front about holding out for the best price above all else. I have a very real problem, though, who claim they care about anything else and clearly don't.

Personally, I would much rather spend more with my local guy and know that my business is helping him stay in business. It's good for me (because I know he'll be around), it's good for him (he gets to stay in business) and it's good for the local community (because of the taxes collected).

Or I could just shuck and jive my way around the internet until I can save a hundred bucks.

[Nomad]

The dealer has to provide something the customer values in addition to the guitar in order to charge more for his products than similar products sold elsewhere. Don't blame the customer if the dealer isn't providing added value. If he just moves guitars, he is commoditizing his inventory, and in that situation price-based competition is to be expected - it's the only thing left on which to compete.

And that's because customers have become accustomed to "expecting" a certain discount.

What's wrong with "expecting" to pay a price which is fair to both the customer and the dealer?

Because, I hate to tell you, getting a guitar for XX% off the list price is flat-out screwing the dealer, and it's doing so in a pretty impressive fashion.



edited for pricing discussion -
please utilize PMs

[JB12]

I agree with your comment, Nomad. We support our local dealer (maybe a little too much, because they have gotten quite a bit of our money since 1974, when I started going there).

Good for you!!

AND for HIM!

Or HER...   

[TaylorGirl]

I agree with your comment, Nomad. We support our local dealer (maybe a little too much, because they have gotten quite a bit of our money since 1974, when I started going there).

Good for you!!

AND for HIM!

Or HER...   

Good point, but my FLGS is owned by a HIM. 

[Nomad]

I agree with your comment, Nomad. We support our local dealer (maybe a little too much, because they have gotten quite a bit of our money since 1974, when I started going there).

Good for you!!

AND for HIM!

Or HER...   

Yeah, because that's really important to the point being made.

[Edward]

What I am "not getting" here is, quite frankly, the point of this thread, as well as the point of where the thread had gone (sideways).

People "ask" whatever they want when they list a sale: but what they ask and what they get are rarely the same, and never disclosed (save for ebay).  So who cares what folks ask, and how that compares to new really.  If a seller of a used taylor gets a killer price that rivals new (I doubt it, but we can entertain that remote possibility), then good for him.  If a buyer finds that there is value in paying more to get that particular used guitar, then good for him; he should be happy.  And if not, he should have done his homework.  And the purveyor of a new Taylor clearly has to do what is reasonable to stay open and feed his family.  Nothing new there, either.  And don't we all define and ascribe "value" differently anyway?  Why stuck on xx% off this or that puzzles me, as if there is some cosmic bean counter that prescribes fixed margins for all things sold to which we must abide or the economy implodes.  One's man's "expectations" may reek of another's "entitlements."  I really am at a serious loss as to why this thread keeps beating this proverbial dead horse...

Edward

[Nomad]

One's man's "expectations" may reek of another's "entitlements."  I really am at a serious loss as to why this thread keeps beating this proverbial dead horse...

Because it's "expectations" and "entitlements" (which, for purposes of the conversation are really no different), are what drives small guys out of business. In the case of the OP, he was asking about the price of a used Taylor, saying that it was the price of a new one.

He didn't say what that "new" price reflected, though. Did it reflect the MSRP? Did it reflect the price that some people expect to pay for a new one? We don't know.

Following that, someone posted about what an "appropriate" price would be. The aspect of "appropriateness" warrants discussion.

[Nomad]

As an aside, how is the use of a hypothetical discount violating a no pricing rule?

[Nomad]

And I would just add this:

I know my opinion on this isn't a popular one among consumers. I know that people think they're really, really helping their dealer stay in business by buying picks and strings from him instead of guitars which cost thousands of dollars. But just because they believe it doesn't mean they're correct.

This isn't particular to guitars, either. I closed my store (climbing/hiking/outdoorsy stuff) not because of places like Big 5 or Outdoor Outfitters or Dick's Sporting Goods. I closed my store because people would look at a carabiner that I had priced for $32.00 (which is a fair price), and then stand in my store and find it on Amazon for $12.00, and then insist that I sell it to them for that. The fact that I paid $17.00 for it didn't matter an iota. I had to make a profit to stay in business. Customer service, which I was great at, goes a long way, but it doesn't pay the bills.

Too many times, some brain-trust would scoff at a $249.00 sleeping bag in my store, but would buy it from some online place for $229.00 and pay $20.00 in shipping, and then complain about my prices being too high.

It's got to be ridiculous.

So, yeah, I've got strong feelings about "indy" dealers being able to make a fair profit. Apparently, a lot of people on internet forums have strong feelings, too, only their feelings tend to run strongly towards just not caring, at all, if a dealer is able to make a fair profit.

[Ironhead1977]

Nomad I also am in the retail business and experience every thing you have spoken about. I actually had a customer ask if he could have his competing item  that he bought on line delivered to my business so he could save on shipping. Now that takes the cake.