Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
The Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: jjrpilot-admin on April 13, 2012, 12:42:38 AM
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Hello friends, just to let all of you know that neither myself or the other mods deleted the "Criticisms" topic. Members who start topics also have the option to delete their own topics.
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sounded like a hot topic
I only read the first couple of posts, seemed like it was destined for controversy
if anything, should have been a thread about "what things we wish Taylor could alter/provide us"
that being said, I just played my 914 and 414 and I feel great!
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Pity...
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Hello friends, just to let all of you know that neither myself or the other mods deleted the "Criticisms" topic. Members who start topics also have the option to delete their own topics.
Thanks Josh for letting us know. I'd just drafted a reply and when I went to post the thread had gone up in a puff of smoke!
FWIW, here's what I said, (though can imagine it's a bit like reading the punchline without the rest of the joke!)
The OP as I recall made a few comments trying to get people to set out their constructive criticisms of things they disliked in the Taylor range and thought could be improved, which I thought was a very good idea. The one that caused most response was the general assertion that Taylor guitars were overpriced, bringing a lot of replies arguing that Taylors were very fairly priced compared to the main competitors in the US, but the OP was rather vague as he didn't really spell out overpriced in relation to what.
Re pricing, my response was to ask the OP where he (apologies if it was a she!) was posting from, as there were a few references in the posts to the UK. If so, there may well be a case to be made that Taylor's are overpriced in an overseas market compared to local alternatives because of the import tax structures. For instance, in Australia is a Maton or a Cole Clark better value than a Taylor or a Martin? All of these guitars will be subject to a price jump once they're exported, so you'd arguably get much more bang for your buck buying locally. You may agree or disagree re specific guitars, but clearly a discussion of pricing internationally is not the same discussion as an internal comparison of US brands (which in any event will all remain comparable to each other value wise whether exported or not).
I think specific prices aren't allowed here so I'm trying to stay general, however it's very easy to google and see how much Taylors cost in the UK, every dealer has the same price. It looks like a lot of the sales in the UK are made online, they're not particularly widely distributed there and I doubt that prices are particularly negotiable. Check out the UK cost of an 814ce and you may be surprised (don't forget to multiply the figure by 1.6 to convert to USD).
http://www.dawsons.co.uk/taylor-814ce-electro-acoustic-guitar-natural
The OP then went on to specifically compare the pricing of the 814ce to the 414ce Ltd (with EIR and CV bracing)... he was arguing it was basically the same guitar without the fancy inlays, and therefore the 814ce was very highly priced. The EIR model was basically a special edition of the 414ce and it was presented as this, rather than as a pared down 814ce. Of course Taylor aren't going to draw attention to the fact it lacks the gloss finish, abalone inlays, fancier bindings, tuners and presumably higher grade tonewoods and workmanship on the 814ce, they're simply going to introduce it as a special edition of the 414ce. Curiously, the prices on these 414ce Ltd's was actually less in the UK than on the standard 414ce models, which I suspect wasn't the case elsewhere - and that would make the price differential between the 800 series even more pronounced.
Finally, he also expressed a dislike for the tone on the Koa Fall Ltd's, as well as a dislike of the Dreadnaught shape, but this provoked fewer responses, and given that there's a considerable demand for both in the marketplace and that all the major manufacturers provide them this seemed to be a moot point.
Apologies to the OP if I've misrepresented things - feel free to correct me. As I said earlier, I think it's very worthwhile to open topics of this nature.
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The only thing I don't like about Taylor guitars is my budget isn't big enough to buy every Taylor that I want!!! I love Taylors and I don't have any gripes about them. If the OP thinks they are too expensive, I don't!!! I still believe in the "you get what you pay for" idea when it comes to musical instruments!! Let's keep this forum friendly and not get people on here just trying to start fights and get controversy started. There is enough of that on the other forum. Friendly posts only.......PRETTY PLEASE!!!!
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Yeah, it seemed like the OP was trying to get the members to agree with him and that just wasn't happening. Too bad tho' differing opinions are always good as long as things stay civil and that particular thread was generating lots of discussion. So far this forum doesn't flame people just for expressing an different viewpoint.
I like koa and DN's but wasn't going to get into that entirely subjective discussion, I really don't mind if someone else doesn't like them, it's my guitar and that's all that matters to me.
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Whats the point of starting a thread about why you dont like Taylor guitars on the Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum. How daft can one be? That thread would belong a general acoustic forum, not a manufacturer specific forum.
Now if it was a thread about things Taylor does right, and things Taylor does wrong thats a different story. Wierd thread no doubt.
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Whats the point of starting a thread about why you dont like Taylor guitars on the Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum. How daft can one be? That thread would belong a general acoustic forum, not a manufacturer specific forum.
Now if it was a thread about things Taylor does right, and things Taylor does wrong thats a different story. Wierd thread no doubt.
There are several things about the OP's logic I don't understand and things he said in his subsequent posts I find unnecessary, but I don't recall his original post existing to say that he doesn't like Taylor guitars. I think a post that points out what he perceives as Taylor's flaws is fair game. Whether or not I happen to agree with him is immaterial.
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Well, whatever the reason, someone decided they weren't interested in discussing differing opinions, and wasn't interested in answering any questions regarding his...
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it really is a shame :(
i'm not happy that the OP felt the need to have to delete the thread,
but it has happened before, on a Martin Performing Artist thread
expressing one's opinion, viewpoint, experience & knowledge is what this forum is all about,
imho & with close to 600 members, there will be next to nothing that everyone here will
agree upon & with some many things being subjective in nature, there really aren't any
'wrong answers', especially when it comes to tone or anything that is 'personal preference' -
to have all of the posts lost after members who spend their time composing,
articulating & posting their viewpoints & to have it all disappear is disappointing :-\
i think what one of the things that the OP was getting at is, other than an extreme dislike
for the 11 fall koa LTDs, was why does Taylor not offer a standard 400 series rosewood 'LTD'
martin now offers 4 solid rosewood models in their Performing Artist series,
along with madasgascar rosewood, siris & koa HPL models as well
http://www.martinguitar.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=itemlist&task=category&id=189:limited-editions-and-new-models&Itemid=8 (http://www.martinguitar.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=itemlist&task=category&id=189:limited-editions-and-new-models&Itemid=8)
http://www.martinguitar.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=itemlist&task=category&id=49:performing-artist-series&Itemid=8 (http://www.martinguitar.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=itemlist&task=category&id=49:performing-artist-series&Itemid=8)
other than having the 'right to demand' that certain guitar be produced ??? ::)
i wonder what the viability would be if Taylor were to make 4 series R, MA, & K models,
like they offered in the mid late 90's, albeit slightly updated (gloss top, standard II bracing) -
i'm going to start a poll on this, because i'm curious to see what the responses are :)
i was able to reconstruct the last 2 pages of the deleted thread (thank you, <- button ;) )
as i didn't re-review the first page when i got back on the forum last evening -
if any members would like have their original posts back, please PM & i will resend them
it may take a while, as i will in & out most of the day,
but by this evening i will have responded to everyone
thanks again, for participating here & truly making this forum what it is -
i enjoy spending time here & y'all make it a very informative, thought-provoking & fun place to be
have a good one :D
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If Bob wanted to build me a custom prototype 400 series with rosewood back and sides and any other bells and whistles he wanted to use and gave it to me, I promise I would play the fire out of it to make sure it was a good guitar!!! I would even give him reviews weekly!! ;D
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I think he had the feeling of entitlement to have a Taylor guitar for the price he wants it to be. I just don't understand why he even bothered slamming the KOA series, I don't really want one either, and that does not upset me. ???
When demand and price meet Taylor will make sales, and I believe they make a lot of sales. Just so you know if I could get a 816ce for $1500.00 I would like that to.
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If Bob wanted to build me a custom prototype 400 series with rosewood back and sides and any other bells and whistles he wanted to use and gave it to me, I promise I would play the fire out of it to make sure it was a good guitar!!! I would even give him reviews weekly!! ;D
I bid daily reviews!
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Know this: I will not always share the opinions of everyone here. In fact, I will often run counter to whatever the prevailing opinion may be. But I'll never tuck tail and run.
edited for rule #1. Let's please be respectful even when opinions do not agree with our own. Thank you. Cindy
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The replies to the original post and to some follow up posts from the OP had really turned personal. That is what led the OP to yank the thread. It's one thing for folks to say that they disagree with a viewpoint. It's quite another to start attacking that person which is what was going on in that thread. I agree that the OP might have used other words, but let's recognize that not everyone says everything perfectly all the time. Why not look at the substance and if you disagree, disagree politely rather than criticize someone personally?
I found the thread refreshing and the broader point helpful. Taylor is a fine company and makes a superb product but the company has made missteps from time to time--I won't even mention them here because it's a sure way to start an argument. I have been loyal to the brand partly because they do listen to their customers and set things right when they do make a mistake. Constructive criticism improves everything but that sort of talk does not seem welcome here. Just look at the thread on Taylor's new website.
The company invited feedback and learned from many members here that there are a lot of user perceived problems with the site. Nevertheless, some people have treated those posts as somehow disloyal to Taylor and have criticized those posters for their opinions, often suggesting that the writer is not savvy enough to make the site work. That sort of thing and the way that some posters seem to take over most of the threads here has nearly killed my interest in this forum.
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I have found this forum to be very friendly and respectful thus far. While I did not have the opportunity to read the deleted thread in its entirety, I found most of the responses to the OP to be thoughtful and polite in their opposing view (as I hope that mine was). I did sense some frustration with the OP in the the last few posts I read, and I tried at that time to steer the conversation back to the OP'soriginal three talking points. Perhaps it's better that the thread was deleted before it got worse.
I like this forum and the people on it. As long as we remain civil to one another, it's still a great place to hang out. Just my $.02...
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I'm a new comer. but I can tell you that I own both an 814-CE and a 414-CE Indian rosewood. The 814-CE is cosmetically more appealing, but there's very little difference, in my OP, in the sound. I have no idea about the quality differences in build, etc. The only obvious things are gold vs. Chrome and Dots vs. Inlays. I'm just really happy they made those runs of Indian rosewood 414-CE's and that I was able to obtain one. The manufacturer has a right to create whatever product they choose. It's the consumer who has to decide what he wants.
SB