Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Lessons, Recordings, How Tos, Repair, Accessories => Topic started by: Guitarsan on August 27, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
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No, not this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPtv14q9ZDg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPtv14q9ZDg)
(Although it is interesting watching Hendrix play one, and admit he was really nervous - Stop the tape!)
Since playing with my Taylor 150e (and having to remove the strings and put them back on a couple of times for a couple of reasons) I've broken 3 high G strings.
::ping!::: ::ping!:: ::ping!::
So it started to scare me - am I doing something wrong? Did I tighten the wrong string by mistake? But, I came to my senses once it happened the third time in two weeks and did what any self respecting expert does. I Googled "12 string high G string break" or something similar.
OK! Well now, I'm not alone. In fact, there seems to be a High G "broke my string blues" club out there. To summarize what I found:
- The high G string on a 12 string is under a lot of tension and depending on the guitar and strings used this is fairly common for it to break, especially as you're tuning it up to standard pitch.
- As a result, a lot of 12 string players tune down a step and play it like that or perhaps capo on 2nd fret to get back to standard pitch
- Benefits include less stress on the guitar - over time the best of them succumb to the stress of 12 strings pulling on them and exhibit that through unpleasant structural abnormalities
- Others say they don't bother tuning the second high G string an octave higher, they just make it another unison pair
- Others say just use a .008 gauge (most high G strings in 12 string sets are .009 or .010) Seems counterintuitive to me, but ok
- Still others say to use the (my paraphrase) "sneak up on it" tuning approach. Get close to standard tuning and slowww down, perhaps bringing it to tune over as much as a day!?!
Me, I think I might favor tuning down a step and play it like that or capo on 2nd fret to get back to standard tuning.
So for all you 12 stringers out there with "experience", what say you about this? Enquiring minds want to know.....
Scott
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Hmm. Can't say I've had that happen to any of my 12-strings (sound of me gently rapping on the wood of my guitar). I've kept my 'G' strings as an octave pair, but I do tend to tune all of the strings very deliberately (i.e., slowly), so perhaps I've been able to avoid the issue in that way...?
My understanding about tuning a step lower, at least with older 12-string guitars, was to avoid stress on the neck and to make the strings easier to fret. I've been told that it's not necessary to do on Taylor 12-string guitars, as they've been engineered to withstand the stress of having all the strings tuned to standard pitch. And, of course, Taylor 12-string guitars are renowned for their playability. Many people probably still do it (tune a step lower, then capo up) on Taylor 12-string guitars simply out of habit. And some prefer the sound of a 12-string tuned down a step (not as 'jangly').
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Hi Scott,
I've had my 12er tuned to concert pitch for years, and always with elixir nanos. Never ever had a breakage problem except with just this past summer where the high g snapped on a set that was brand new ...to which I emailed elixir and they promptly apologized for the inconvenience and asked me for my mailing address to send me a whole new set (nice!). But that's it; never a problem. Are you a strummer? Not that it is your fault but could it be that the strings you are using are not a good match for your strumming style (if that applies to you, of course). Or maybe you really did just get a bad batch? If elixirs, give em an email ...their CS is really good from where I sit :)
Edward
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On my acoustic Taylors, I use Elixir Nano lights turned down a full step. I've never broken a string. I used to tune in concert pitch and did't either but i like the sound (and tension) better.
Where does the sting break? Nut, saddle, middle? There could be a rough spot.
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Hi Scott,
I've had my 12er tuned to concert pitch for years, and always with elixir nanos. Never ever had a breakage problem except with just this past summer where the high g snapped on a set that was brand new ...to which I emailed elixir and they promptly apologized for the inconvenience and asked me for my mailing address to send me a whole new set (nice!). But that's it; never a problem. Are you a strummer? Not that it is your fault but could it be that the strings you are using are not a good match for your strumming style (if that applies to you, of course). Or maybe you really did just get a bad batch? If elixirs, give em an email ...their CS is really good from where I sit :)
Edward
They are Elixir nano lights. That's what came on this brand new guitar. And then I put a new set on when I changed the tuners. Had problems with both! I think I'll email Elixir, at this price for 12 string sets, a new set would help!
Has nothing to do with my strumming - these are breaking on initial tuning before I get to strum!
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On my acoustic Taylors, I use Elixir Nano lights turned down a full step. I've never broken a string. I used to tune in concert pitch and did't either but i like the sound (and tension) better.
Where does the sting break? Nut, saddle, middle? There could be a rough spot.
Breaking at the tuner each time. And it's not the tuner, because it's happened with both the original tuner and the locking tuner I replaced it with! Possibly the string is sticking at the nut, I'll check into that, but I doubt it, because I don't hear that sticking as I tune up.
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Hmmm, breaking on tuning up? And it's not sticking at the nut eh? Dumb question, but are you 100% certain you're not trying to go an octave higher than where it should be?
Edward
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Hmmm, breaking on tuning up? And it's not sticking at the nut eh? Dumb question, but are you 100% certain you're not trying to go an octave higher than where it should be?
Edward
Yeah in my last post I conceded it might be a sticking nut, will need to check that out. Totally certain I'm not tuning too high on the string. (And there are dozens if not hundreds of posts on the internet on this issue, so it appears to be somewhat common)
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Hi Scott
I'm the proud owner of a 2014 456SLTD, had it about four months now and I broke the high G string whilst trying different tunings. Gave me quite a shock as I'd never broken a string before (only started eighteen months ago). Replaced the string, tuned it carefully a bit at a time stretching in between to make sure it was seating in the bridge and it hasn't happened since. I tried tuning down half a step and a full step but have settled on concert pitch. Incidentally, the lighter the gauge the less tension is required for a given pitch hence the recommendation to go .008. Taylors come with light gauge Elixirs fitted, as you know, and as mine are about ready for a change I've ordered a set of mediums to see if they sound a bit warmer. I tried a 150 twelve string at the store today and was VERY impressed. You've got a great guitar, just be gentle tuning that high G and you'll be fine.
Enjoy Bob
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Incidentally, the lighter the gauge the less tension is required for a given pitch hence the recommendation to go .008. Taylors come with light gauge Elixirs fitted, as you know, and as mine are about ready for a change I've ordered a set of mediums to see if they sound a bit warmer.
Well, to your point, be careful with the mediums and the additional tension they bring to your guitar. Lots of folks who use mediums on a 12er usually tune down to lessen the pressure.....
Or, just to "start something", you could consider a 566ce, that would warm things up. ;-)
(http://davesguitar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/223031B.jpg)
I tried a 150 twelve string at the store today and was VERY impressed. You've got a great guitar, just be gentle tuning that high G and you'll be fine.
Enjoy Bob
Thanks, yours sounds like it would be very nice too. It's definitely a bargain for the sound you get out of it!
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Are you putting enough wraps of the string on the tuning post to cover the string hole completely?
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Hi Scott
I'm delighted with the 456 so looking for anything else is out of the question (for now anyway). You've got me thinking on the string tension thing though. I'm covinced the guitar is more than capable of coping with a little more tension, but perhaps someone could advise wether the truss rod might need a tweak on slightly heavier strings. Sorry to hijack your thread but I guess you'd be interested as well.
Bob
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Hi Scott
I'm delighted with the 456 so looking for anything else is out of the question (for now anyway). You've got me thinking on the string tension thing though. I'm covinced the guitar is more than capable of coping with a little more tension, but perhaps someone could advise wether the truss rod might need a tweak on slightly heavier strings. Sorry to hijack your thread but I guess you'd be interested as well.
Bob
I hope you get some answers! Frankly it might make sense to email Taylor support, if you do, curious what they say.
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Hi Scott
Send an email to Customer Support Europe and got a reply from California in a couple of hours which was impressive. They said NOT to fit the medium gauge string set as it could cause damage to the bridge and top with the extra tension at concert pitch. At my very limited playing skills I really enjoy trying to play along to songs on the CD player which is why I want to stay at concert pitch so I guess I'll stick to the lights unless anyone can suggest any other option for a slightly warmer sound. Thanks for the advice, that could have been a disastrous exercise.
Regards Bob
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Bob,
Maybe the next step is to try a couple of other light gauge sets and see if the high G breaks. That would eliminate the Elixir factor. I'm strictly an Elixir guy but I believe D'Addario EJ38 is equivalent. I think that it breaks at the tuner is the significant clue (string wrap?). Maybe how you lock the string affects this?
Eric
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Hi Scott
Send an email to Customer Support Europe and got a reply from California in a couple of hours which was impressive. They said NOT to fit the medium gauge string set as it could cause damage to the bridge and top with the extra tension at concert pitch. At my very limited playing skills I really enjoy trying to play along to songs on the CD player which is why I want to stay at concert pitch so I guess I'll stick to the lights unless anyone can suggest any other option for a slightly warmer sound. Thanks for the advice, that could have been a disastrous exercise.
Regards Bob
I understand the desire to keep things at concert pitch. FWIW, I had a lovely 655 that benefitted wonderfully (IMHO) from tuning down a full step (to D) with the elixir medium-gauge set (to which the factory said was perfectly fine tuned to D). To my fingers, it felt the same in tension, but the sound was deeper and mellower than tuned normally with lights. Capo 2 and you're right on pitch (and may I personally recommend for a 12-er to get the G7th Performance capo for 12s). Totally easy and sounds great whether or not you're capoing.
Alternative that's more pricey: use the elixir nano extra-light set in PhosBronze ...it's the same gauge set as the 12-string lights. Then order rest of the individual strings: in PB for the wounds, and plain steel for the rest. "StringsAndBeyond" will allow you to do so, and though the total cost is more than a regular 12er set, I much prefer the PBs for my 12 than the 80/20s. And FWIW, I emailed elixir about PBs and they have NO plans on assembling a 12er set in PB ...which annoys me as it's not like they really have to "do" much of anything outside of packaging!
Hope that helps you a bit.
Edward
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Hi Scott
Send an email to Customer Support Europe and got a reply from California in a couple of hours which was impressive. They said NOT to fit the medium gauge string set as it could cause damage to the bridge and top with the extra tension at concert pitch. At my very limited playing skills I really enjoy trying to play along to songs on the CD player which is why I want to stay at concert pitch so I guess I'll stick to the lights unless anyone can suggest any other option for a slightly warmer sound. Thanks for the advice, that could have been a disastrous exercise.
Regards Bob
No problem! And you might consider trying the mediums, tune down one step to D, and then play both open strings as well as capo on the 2nd fret, which gets you back to concert pitch.
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Hi Guys
I've restrung with a set of lights which my dealer kindly threw in when I bought the guitar. A somewhat challenging hour or so I have to say. A lot of creaking involved but I patiently stretched and tuned and finally beat it into submission. I'm hacking away at "Dead or Alive" with the descending sixths intro which is why I kinda like it in concert pitch. Edward, the store was good enough to keep the mediums I ordered and I'm going to try the phosphor bronze set next time. Thanks for the help guys, I've still got images of a bridge flying past my nose attached to pick up wires and strings. I wonder what chord that would be err, never mind, thanks again. Just love this forum.
Bob
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Thanks for the help guys, I've still got images of a bridge flying past my nose attached to pick up wires and strings. I wonder what chord that would be err, never mind, thanks again. Just love this forum.
Bob
Hilarious! So happy we could help. I'm paying it forward, I've been helped so many times. Like I've learned from some on here or another board to tune that High G string to pitch last.
By the way, I do believe I have some "binding" going on in the nut with that string, so will lube her up with graphite etc. next time I change the strings.
Bob, still trying to spend your money, I replaced all my tuning knobs with locking tuners, so the task of restringing a 12er is not so laborious and time consuming. A thought for down the road....
2 sets of these:
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/2154a941-6e5d-484f-a28c-2640779e7038/LOCKING-ROTOMATICS/Mini-Locking-Rotomatics-406-Series (https://www.grotro.com/Grover/2154a941-6e5d-484f-a28c-2640779e7038/LOCKING-ROTOMATICS/Mini-Locking-Rotomatics-406-Series)
and installed....
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa174/apocalyps0/5E8064FD-CEEA-41C0-A67A-3135503052D3_zpscrdrpdg7.jpg)
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Glad to share what had worked for me, Bob! Given the choice, I ended up sticking with concert pitch, myself.
BTW, "Wanted"...great tune...love it! Next on your 12er is Give a Little Bit (all chords, yesss!), Wish You were Here, Over The Hills and Far Away, and Brown Eyed Girl. All fun anyway, but especially fun on a 12 :D
Edward
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BTW, "Wanted"...great tune...love it! Next on your 12er is Give a Little Bit (all chords, yesss!), Wish You were Here, Over The Hills and Far Away, and Brown Eyed Girl. All fun anyway, but especially fun on a 12 :D
Edward
Classics! Also Free Falling, More Than A Feeling, Hotel California, and Horse With No Name.
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Steady on chaps, I've only been playing eighteen months. I've been working on "Dead Or Alive" for six months and figure I'll definitely be dead before I nail it. Edward, just to confirm the phosphor bronze strings you recommend, Elixir has the polyweb 80/20 strings as having the warmest tone on their scale of warm to bright. Are they the ones or the nanoweb pure bronze?
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Hey Bob,
I suppose you could try the polyweb, but I had tried those exactly once about a decade ago and couldn't stand the tone nor feel ...but that's clearly a personal choice. I'm referring to the light-gauge (10s) PB in nanowebs. I've got that set on my 12er now (plus the other strings in PB/nano, natch), and I like the tonal difference over the stock 12-string 80/20 nano set from elixir: fuller bottom end, less jangle, and better overall string balance to my ears.
BTW, "Give a Little Bit" is a great tune that's easy on the fingers and sounds glorious on 12 strings :D
Hey Guitarsn,
yeah, FreeFalling ...forgot about that one, thanks! :)
Edward