Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: leepish on May 31, 2016, 01:25:40 AM
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I am new to this terrific forum and I am getting ready to pull out the credit card and buy my first Taylor. (Not entirely true. Back in 2014, I owned one of the revoiced 816ce's for one week and decided to send it back, and then bought a new Martin HD-28. I much preferred the Martin to the Taylor. I still love my HD-28 and will keep it!) Still, my mind has always been on owning a Taylor. I just haven't found the right one. Well, this past week I played the new 614ce alongside the revoiced 814ce and the new 514ce. It blew me away. The new 514ce is a great mahogany guitar and sounds wonderful, but it is not my cup of tea. I like the 814ce as well, but I prefer the sitka/rosewood guitar I already have. But the new 614ce plays right into my wheelhouse. I can't explain it. I can play it the way I want to and it gives me back the sound I'm looking for. I have listened to the many Youtube review recordings and I get what Andy Powers says about the malleability of maple in his new conception. In all the videos, you really can hear how the guitar sounds different depending on the player. I don't think you can say that about any other Taylor series at this point. (And I continue to try them all, whenever I get the chance.) My question is this. I have not been able to get my hands on a 616ce yet. I live in Korea and it is hard to find a great variety of shapes. I would like to hear anyone's thoughts at this point on the differences between 614ce and the 616ce. Difference in terms of bass, mids, treble; balance across the strings and up and down the neck. Also, how about playability, particularly with the difference between the HD lights and the mediums on the 816. I may need to purchase the guitar online in the States without trying it out. So any thoughts on 614ce vs. 616ce would be most appreciated. Thank you!
2014 Martin HD-28
2008 Martin JC-16re Aura (Reluctantly, sold it this week to raise funds for my new Taylor)
2010 American Deluxe Telecaster
2006 Epiphone Sheraton Elitist
2003 Avalon Legacy L25
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Still, my mind has always been on owning a Taylor. I just haven't found the right one.
Finding the right one. I think that says it best.
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First off, welcome aboard; glad you found us here!
The over-arching difference between all GA and GS guitars (the x14 vs x16) are:
- GS is slightly wider at the lower bout: some find this minor difference unobtrusive while for others it is a deal-breaker
- GS' larger body produces more bass; the guitar's overall voice is "bigger" and with low end more dominant than its GA sibling
- GS uses medium gauge strings, and the top is braced for it as well. So the mediums add to the string tension and "stiffens" the playability, as well as thicken up the notes, including the treble strings. Again, this is either a minor adjustment for some, or a killer for others.
And the point of being braced for mediums is important, too, as you "can" use lights on a GS, or mediums on a GA: it's safe, as per the factory. But the tops are designed from the get-go for med and light, respectively. So while it is completely kosher to use the "other" gauge, the tone may or may not be what you expect since the soundboards are braced --thus tuned-- for "its own" string set.
So those are the generalities between the GA and GS. But with each different wood combo, I think it matters much as each wood brings a different flavor and tonal bias to the table. But as you're asking for opinions, I'd personally suggest a 614 for you.
1. You have an HD 28, which is one of the guitar world's sonic cannons. The 616 (likewise the proverbial cannon) would likely be somewhat sonically redundant. Different in tone from your HD28, yes, but why have something so close, IMHO.
2. the revoiced 614 would play lighter and "faster," and I personally think the revoicing of the new 600 series makes the GA and GC (the smaller body) the prime benefactors. My ears "liked" the 616, but preferred the balance of the 614. Really great vocal balance across all strings on the 614, and would be a nice contrast to your Marty, IMHO.
Hope that gives you some food for thought! Post pics of your victory! :D
Edward
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Good summation, Edward. Not much to add. The build quality of Taylor is remarkably consistent from one example to another, but each guitar is an individual. Looking at his list, the new 614 would be my suggestion too. The new 600's are a bit more Martin-esque in their tone than the legacy maple guitars, but are still 100% Taylor for setup and playability.
On my 414ce I play lights (sometimes) and mediums (mostly). I use mostly mediums on my GS-K (koa / spruce). I recently had a light gauge Elixir test set on the GS-K for six weeks, and it lost some of the bigger tone that it normally has.
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Edward's response was said so perfectly I have nothing to add except to say that I've owned an 816, a legacy 614 and a cedar topped 514. Everything Edward said about the differences is perfectly spot on, and in the end, I much prefer the GA over the GS. But this is just me. If you've got a heavy hand and want some awesome strummed tone, the GS is for you, if you want to play fingerstyle as well, not so much because it is harder to get the top going and a light hand fingerstyle on a medium strung GS can barely be heard...
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1. You have an HD 28, which is one of the guitar world's sonic cannons. The 616 (likewise the proverbial cannon) would likely be somewhat sonically redundant. Different in tone from your HD28, yes, but why have something so close, IMHO.
Edward
Thanks everyone! Fantastic feedback. Edward, your points are outstanding. So helpful. I do have a beautiful sonic cannon and the 614 really is a wonderfully different tool. I also need to think about my hands, which have successfully endured 3 tendonitis operations. The HD is a workout. After a 2-hour gig, I feel it. That 614 I played the other day was so easy! Thanks everyone! I will post on NGD-sometime in July when I am back for a visit to the States.
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.... the HD is a workout. After a 2-hour gig, I feel it. That 614 I played the other day was so easy! Thanks everyone! I will post on NGD-sometime in July when I am back for a visit to the States.
Whenever I read this type of comment, the first thought is "get that guitar to a good luthier for a better set up" if you can. A good set up for YOUR playing style can work wonders. Martins in particular come set up fairly high from the factory. It is easier to remove saddle and nut height than to add it. And many Martins are used by bluegrass flat pickers and strummers who bang on them pretty hard to keep up with loud banjos, so they are generally set up for medium strings AND a bit higher action besides.
Having said that, my only remaining Martin sold just last week. I can play any of my Taylors for hours, but 20-30 minutes on a 1-11/16" modified low oval Martin neck, and my fretting hand knuckles ache for hours. That guitar sounded awesome, especially after 26 years of aging and play time, but I never played it any more.
Maybe if your HD-28 is made to play its best, your desire for a new 614 or 814 will wane. Sacriledge, I know - here I am on UTGF recommending NOT buying a new Taylor. :o
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I got the chance to play the 614ce again in Seoul, and I must say it is a beauty. Tone is great, and it would certainly be a versatile guitar. I am heading to the US in a couple weeks and will start my Taylor search in earnest. I want to road test the 616ce. I do have an ample budget to work with, which will allow me to look at the 800 and 900 series guitars as well. I'd like to hear thoughts on the difference between the revoiced 800s, particularly the 814ce, 816ce and their new 900 series counterparts. Does anyone out there think it is worth spending the extra bucks on a 914ce or 916ce?
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...I'd like to hear thoughts on the difference between the revoiced 800s, particularly the 814ce, 816ce and their new 900 series counterparts. Does anyone out there think it is worth spending the extra bucks on a 914ce or 916ce?
1. On the revoiced 800s, you will get lots of split opinions on this as the new 8s are simply a different voice than the line it replaced. The "easy" answer is the revoiced 8s have ore bottom end, but the difference really is more than just "more bass." Truly, you have to hear them both to know the difference; difficult as the older 8s are disappearing odd store walls. So the bottom line is play the new 8 and you will either take to it or not, particularly in comparison to the 614.
2. The 900s are, again, different animals. They used to be more aesthetically appointed 800s as the builds were the same (I am not minimizing, this, btw, as "worth" is completely subjective and the 900s are unquestionably beautiful to some, or overly ornate to others). But now with the 800 revoicing, the 900 difference is more than the aesthetics but also representative of the previous voicing (pre-Andy Powers CV braced, IIRC). I've not seen many 900s on shop walls, but when you find one, give it a whirl! FWIW, a buddy of mine has had his 914 for maybe 5 or so years now and it is a great sounding guitar...apart from it looking beautiful! So again, "worth" is subjective, but beauty does come at a price :)
Edward
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Well, this past week I played the new 614ce alongside the revoiced 814ce and the new 514ce. It blew me away.
.... But the new 614ce plays right into my wheelhouse. I can't explain it. I can play it the way I want to and it gives me back the sound I'm looking for. I have listened to the many Youtube review recordings and I get what Andy Powers says about the malleability of maple in his new conception. In all the videos, you really can hear how the guitar sounds different depending on the player. I don't think you can say that about any other Taylor series at this point. (And I continue to try them all, whenever I get the chance.) ......
As you note, Andy Powers can explain it! Welcome to the revoiced series 600 party. 8)
The linear aspect that Andy Powers talks about when he describes maple makes the revoiced 600 series guitar more coaxable by the player, with many different sounds possible as a result.
"In a nutshell, the primary sonic quality maple is known for is its linearity — it has very predictable dampening and stiffness factors that make it the most transparent-sounding wood. It reflects exactly what the design and the player bring to it. If you make a warm-sounding instrument and play it warmly, it sounds warm. If it is a bright and trebly guitar and played brightly, it will reflect that. It is this linear personality that endears the wood to the bowed instrument world."
https://www.taylorguitars.com/blog/guitars-more/tone-talk-rosewood-mahogany-and-maple (https://www.taylorguitars.com/blog/guitars-more/tone-talk-rosewood-mahogany-and-maple)
So what Andy did in the revoicing was to recognize this key attribute of maple, and change the bracing and other factors to maximize this aspect, rather than just brace maple like rosewood or mahogany, which is what they did previous to the revoicing. Make sense?
So congratulations for picking up on this, without even knowing "how" and "what" was done.
Incidentally, somewhere in one of those videos out there, Andy says maple is his favorite tone wood.
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1. On the revoiced 800s, you will get lots of split opinions on this as the new 8s are simply a different voice than the line it replaced. The "easy" answer is the revoiced 8s have ore bottom end, but the difference really is more than just "more bass." Truly, you have to hear them both to know the difference; difficult as the older 8s are disappearing odd store walls. So the bottom line is play the new 8 and you will either take to it or not, particularly in comparison to the 614.
Yeah, very subjective, my experience on the revoiced 800 series was "ugggh". To me, the revoicing made the 800 sound more like a Martin, is the high level way I would describe it. And I owned a pre-revoiced 814ce and was really hoping the revoicing would compel me to change to it, that it would better, but more of the same. Saved me lots of cash though. Until I met my true love, a 616ce First Edition.
2. The 900s are, again, different animals. They used to be more aesthetically appointed 800s as the builds were the same (I am not minimizing, this, btw, as "worth" is completely subjective and the 900s are unquestionably beautiful to some, or overly ornate to others). But now with the 800 revoicing, the 900 difference is more than the aesthetics but also representative of the previous voicing (pre-Andy Powers CV braced, IIRC). I've not seen many 900s on shop walls, but when you find one, give it a whirl! FWIW, a buddy of mine has had his 914 for maybe 5 or so years now and it is a great sounding guitar...apart from it looking beautiful! So again, "worth" is subjective, but beauty does come at a price :)
Edward
So given what I said above, you could predict this.... I love the new 900 series, they're stunning to look at and to hear. From the armrest to removing the "too much bling" aspect, to the fully rich tone, they're stunning IMO.
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I haven't been here for awhile. A new hobby - flying lessons - has kept me occupied. So I've been quite happy with my 114ce and HV Mini, singing some worn out folk songs and just pluckin' away. I have a baritone voice, and can sometimes in the evening reach the lower registers of second tenor. I've come to think the Mini's sound is more compatible and complementary to my voice, maybe due to the combination of spruce and maple. I don't use finger picks or nails for that matter, and that seems to offset the natural brightness of spruce/maple which makes a nice sustainability but also good tonal separation (not "muddy"). I have tried the 414, and 814 which are very good, but seemed to be more for an instrumentalist (country?) and even a few mahogany offerings, which seem very warm, blues or jazz. So my question is directed to any folk singers who have tried or used the new 614, combo spruce and maple. What's your opinion regarding vocal compatability?
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Recently, I went to Guitar Center, having decided that maybe the 814ce was the next guitar for me. However, I played an 814ce and a 914ce that was next to it, going back and forth for a while. To me, the 914ce was noticeably easier to play because of the rounding on the sides of the fretboard. Also, there was something overall about the shaping of the fretboard that seemed different.
I don't really claim to be a connoisseur of the minutiae regarding the details of guitars, as many in this and similar forums seem to be. I couldn't describe the differences of the various Taylor body sizes, but I know what feels right to me. Both the 814ce and 914ce sounded fine to me, with the 914ce sounding a bit warmer and possibly a bit more full, and the 814ce sounding a bit brighter. I would have been satisfied with either. The instrument doesn't really sound the same from the player's position as it does for somebody sitting in front listening to it, so my perceptions may be off. I can tell if the instrument simply doesn't sound good, but Taylors just don't do that. It was the feel of the instrument that made the 914ce worth the extra money for me. It just seemed smoother and easier to play, as if some type of subtle, but important details had been attended to in building it.
So, my take on it is that you really have to have both side by side, and spend time on both to make a final decision. In either case, we are talking substantial money, so the time spent with the instruments before deciding is time well spent. Therefore, it would be worth the effort to get to a shop that has these and several other models of interest right there for the playing.
Tony
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Based on what you currently have , I think perhaps you should try a 618. It will probably fill more sonic space compared to the hd28 but will still cut thru a mix.
I have a 518, just picked it up and I do a lot of solo and it is a monster.
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Well, after a little more research, it appears there was an older version of the 614ce, with ivoroid binding on the neck, gold-tone tuners and a lighter color of maple. Since discontinued. The new one is somewhat more plain, and has a back and sides referred to as "brown sugar" maple. The price appears to be the same. The new one claims to have improved bracing which enhances the tone. I'm so confused, I'll just stick to what I have until I get lucky at Guitar Center when they actually have one I can try out. Thanks anyway.
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Well, after a little more research, it appears there was an older version of the 614ce, with ivoroid binding on the neck, gold-tone tuners and a lighter color of maple. Since discontinued. The new one is somewhat more plain, and has a back and sides referred to as "brown sugar" maple. The price appears to be the same. The new one claims to have improved bracing which enhances the tone. I'm so confused, I'll just stick to what I have until I get lucky at Guitar Center when they actually have one I can try out. Thanks anyway.
I would not want the previous edition of the 6 series unless it was at a really good price.
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A new hobby - flying lessons - has kept me occupied.
Hi Dan, you will find quite a few pilots, active and not around here. Glad you found your way into the sky!
As for the 600's, there was a really big change between the old and new, with some here preferring the old and some the new. I haven't played a 612 but the new 614 wasn't my cup of tea. It is a fantastic looking guitar, but sound wise wasn't what I was looking for.
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"The instrumentation should complement and support the vocals, not compete. The lay person rarely remembers a complex instrument solo, but can usually recall with some accuracy the words and melody." Wish I could remember the name of that music teacher in Nashville who said that. Anyway, I would still like to hear from any folk singers that have tried out the old or new 614. And to Frettingflyer: Are you a member of the Flying Musicians Association? They sound like an interesting group, and I'd like to join someday.
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I would still like to hear from any folk singers that have tried out the old or new 614.
My first Taylor was a 2005 614, and I have to say that I was not hugely enchanted by the sound. I've also played (fairly extensively) both the new 612 and 614. The 612 was a little meek, but the new 614 was awesome. I could be totally happy if that were my one and only gigging guitar.
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I would still like to hear from any folk singers that have tried out the old or new 614.
My first Taylor was a 2005 614, and I have to say that I was not hugely enchanted by the sound. I've also played (fairly extensively) both the new 612 and 614. The 612 was a little meek, but the new 614 was awesome. I could be totally happy if that were my one and only gigging guitar.
I couldn't find any utube reviews of the new one, but I'm glad to hear you prefer it over the old one. The Holden Village Mini is weak on bass, but has just the right amount of treble when plucked with just fingers. Strummed with a pick, it can get pretty brassy, altho I did change out the mediums to lights for an easier feel. With a capo, it starts to sound like a Uke :(. Have you tried a capo, and how did it sound?
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Frettingflyer: Are you a member of the Flying Musicians Association?
Dan-I was completely unaware of them! I am checking out the website and most likely will join/donate. I got my private license in high school and went on to a career doing one of my passions. I also played in the band and orchestra in school, and it sure will be nice to help kids this way.
Thank you for alerting me to this!
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... Anyway, I would still like to hear from any folk singers that have tried out the old or new 614...
I'm one of those "other pilots" Dave mentioned. So congratulations on your new-found hobby! As you progress, just keep in mind a bit of wisdom with which I was imparted early in my aviation career: the three most useless things in aviation are (1) altitude above you; (2) runway behind you; and (3) fuel that's still in the pump. If you remember little else, those three truisms might someday keep you out of trouble!
Regarding your question about the new vs. old 614: I'm not nearly as good a vocalist as I am a pilot; or guitar player for that matter. But I do know what tone I like. Opinions about the re-voiced 600 Series abound on this forum; some of us like the new bracing, whereas some (like me) prefer the old bracing. Both sides offer compelling arguments and neither side is really wrong. But it ultimately comes down to which do you prefer...? Which fits with your needs as a vocalist?
Taylor's marketing line on the old 600 Series was that it was "bright and focused" allowing it's tone to "cut through the mix." This was typical of most Maple-bodied guitars using traditional bracing. The new 600 Series seems to have a different aim in the Taylor line-up: to make a Maple guitar with a tone/aesthetics that is more appealing to the mainstream guitar buyer. As such, the traditional brightness has been 'tamed' in favor of more bass response. I started using the term "Rosehogany" to describe the tone of the new 600 Series: less like traditional Maple, more like a mixture of Rosewood and Mahogany. As such that new tonal focus would probably lend itself better to general vocal accompaniment than the older 600 Series guitars, but you'd have make the final call by seeing which 614 (new or old) compliments your voice better.
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"I'm one of those "other pilots" Dave mentioned."
Sage advice on all counts. There's a place in Chicago that actually has one of each, called Chicago Music Exchange, I think. I would love to get in there and try both. There are also some of the older ones for sale on Ebay, but I bought an Epiphone ES-339 mail order once, which I simply do not like, even after a professional set up. So no more buy without try.
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not to throw another wrench into the works,
but this one may be worth considering, imho -
it's not a grand auditorium or a grand symphony, but ...
https://reverb.com/item/2771116-taylor-proto-custom-618e-adirondack-163 (https://reverb.com/item/2771116-taylor-proto-custom-618e-adirondack-163)