Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: Groni on February 17, 2014, 07:51:59 PM
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When changing features of the most popular line in Taylor guitars, what are the trade-offs?
I have tried two 2014 814ce FE at different dealers, read about all the changes Taylor made to the new models, and formed my own opinion, but my head keeps spinning about the possible trade-offs that a new design can bring (to a guitar that's already a winner), such as:
- Warmer sounding strings = Less bright/brilliant/resiliant sounding? (I personally prefer the warmer sound.)
- Heavier gauge strings = Harder on the fingers? (I personally prefer light gauge strings for prolonged playing.)
- Lighter/thinner wood = Less rugged guitar? (I own an R Taylor with thinner wood and I love it.)
- Better strummer = Less suited for fingerpicking? (Personally, I find the new one better for strumming)
- More conventional sounding guitar = Duller, woodier sound?
Other Aspects:
- I wonder if anyone has tried to put the new string gauge combo on the prior model 814ce. Would the thicker gauge bronze strings sound just as warm as the new 814ce?
- If all the new 814ce changes are so breathtaking, why did the adjacent hanging 914ce blew it out of the water by leaps and bounds?
Sorry for being a bit critical, but I thought these are interesting aspects, and I wonder what the rest of the world thinks.
Looking forward to getting feedback :P
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Like most things related to guitars, these changes are identifiable but less quantifiable. Words like "better" and improvements" are inherently subjective. As someone who owned, loved, and foolishly sold a very nice 814, I'd be just as happy to get another pre-2014 814 again...
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I have not played the 2013 and 2014 814ce's side by side, which is really the only way to tell the difference, but I have played the 2013 and 2014 818e alongside each other and found the difference to be quite subtle. Course the GO body had most of Andy's touches already but the lighter finish and braces make for a guitar that sounds more open, as in older. IMO if someone prefers the esthetics of the previous 800 series there is no reason not to buy it, but the new 800's are a step in the right direction.
Not sure what the plans are for the new features, but I would like to see Taylor offering a different voice for each series. Differentiating the 700, 800, and 900 series by more than esthetics makes sense to me.
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Not sure what the plans are for the new features, but I would like to see Taylor offering a different voice for each series. Differentiating the 700, 800, and 900 series by more than esthetics makes sense to me.
This is my hope as well. It's a shame that the Engelman well dried up or having the 700 series with Engelmann would have created a different voice in that range. I think that right now with the 700, 800, and 900s all having the same wood combo can make it a little confusing for people. Maybe go cedar 700, sitka 800, and european 900s? Of course we would run out of euro spruce so that wouldn't work and you can always modify a model and get cedar on a 700...oh well.
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In the new Wood & Steel, Bob Taylor explained it rather well in my opinion. He said that he has succeeded in being able to produce a guitar with a straight, great playing neck (an industry problem forever) AND he was able to do this on production models on a consistent basis, AND the necks stay straight on an ongoing basis AND if something does go wrong, it can be fixed! That is a huge solution for a long running fundamental problem for acoustic guitars in general. In my 53 years, I have never encountered a better playing acoustic neck...ever! He also said that at some point during his first 40 years, he pretty much gave up on chasing TONE.
Enter Andy Powers....whose idea is to build on what Bob has done and focus on making them sound better. This is not to say that they don't sound good now...but they can be better, right? I have to admire a company with this philosophy. Moving forward and not resting on its older models and coasting through the next 40 years. Making innovations and improvements as part of their day to day activities. Bob created this environment throughout the entire company, enabling one of his employees, David Hosler, to discover that moving the pickup element from beneath the saddle to behind it, was a vast improvement in the sound of a saddle pick up, which has been under the saddle in almost every company on the planet since they first came out.
This culture that Bob has created at Taylor has been there all along which is why I would buy a Taylor from any previous year with complete confidence in the instrument standing on it's own. I'm sure there are plenty of examples out there of older Taylors that still are and always will be awesome guitars. From where I sit, I would say Taylor is leading the way. The shear number of new changes to the 800 line in one fell swoop is astonishing. The differences in tone may be subtle, and are subjective to each player, but you've got to admit, they are moving forward! I applaud them. I applaud their courage to take their top selling line and say, "it can be better". This is not the norm in todays world....this is the exception. In my opinion, this is why Taylor builds such exceptional production guitars.
Sorry! :D
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Just my little uneducated prediction. Just as some of the Martins are "vintage" voiced the Taylors will offer with more of an Andy Powers sound and those with more of a Bob Taylor sound. Obviously they would never phrase it this way but this is just my prediction.
Now...off to watch the Supwerbowl on my DVR. I have 3k on the Broncos winning big!!
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I just picked up one of the FE's a few ago days and I'm absolutely floored by it. The first factory built instrument I've bought in over ten years and this guitar blew me away. To my ears, I personally think Taylor did all the right things in the changes they've made. Of course tone is a subjective thing so the older one's will appeal to a lot of players over the new models but I'm in love with this guitar!
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I have a gen 1 NT neck 914ce that is a killer guitar ,I cannot imagine changing anything about it other than an electronic upgrade.
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When changing features of the most popular line in Taylor guitars, what are the trade-offs?
I have tried two 2014 814ce FE at different dealers, read about all the changes Taylor made to the new models, and formed my own opinion, but my head keeps spinning about the possible trade-offs that a new design can bring (to a guitar that's already a winner), such as:
- Warmer sounding strings = Less bright/brilliant/resiliant sounding? (I personally prefer the warmer sound.)
- Heavier gauge strings = Harder on the fingers? (I personally prefer light gauge strings for prolonged playing.)
- Lighter/thinner wood = Less rugged guitar? (I own an R Taylor with thinner wood and I love it.)
- Better strummer = Less suited for fingerpicking? (Personally, I find the new one better for strumming)
- More conventional sounding guitar = Duller, woodier sound?
Other Aspects:
- I wonder if anyone has tried to put the new string gauge combo on the prior model 814ce. Would the thicker gauge bronze strings sound just as warm as the new 814ce?
- If all the new 814ce changes are so breathtaking, why did the adjacent hanging 914ce blew it out of the water by leaps and bounds?
Sorry for being a bit critical, but I thought these are interesting aspects, and I wonder what the rest of the world thinks.
Looking forward to getting feedback :P
to me, it sounds like the guitar with light gauge 80/20 strings, slightly "heavier" construction (bracing, finish, etc),
which seems to do better for fingerstyle & has a more defined "modern" vibe is "it" for you, so why not go for it ???
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"sorry about being critical" you say? "Critical" simply means you are considiering all possible outcomes, weighing gains against their costs. "Critical" is exactly what one should be when considering any instrument, IMHO! :D
To your point in your post, I personally think you've outline why one who loves the playing (any instrument) more-often-than-not owns multiple instruments: for their varying attributes. You like this guitar for this reason, and that guitar for that. Sure one guitar "can" serve all one's purposes, but given the possibility of multiple guitars to serve different motives, then why not! Tone is in the ear of the beholder sounds cliche, but it still rings true. So why shouldn't an older 814 please one desire while a newer-voiced 814 satisfy another: guitars don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Your mention of your RT struck a chord with me. I know mine are considerably lighter in weight than their Taylor counterparts, and cannot help but think that contributes to their amazing liveliness, sensitivity, and sonic goodness (yeah, I said "goodness," so what ;) ). But built as well as they are (recalling a conversation I had with Tim Luranc years ago), I am convinced that "lightness" offers no deficits in structure or longevity. Am I that confident about other "light" guitars? ...not so much. But I still have guitars other than the RTs to satisfy those other sonic cravings.
What a "problem" to have these days, to be able to worry about varying degrees of excellence when choosing between different great guitars. I say play em both, then decide which to keep, if not both. No shame in selling the one you are no longer enamored with, just like there's no shame in being enamored with both :D
Edward
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I've noticed a lot of 814s for sale on ebay this last couple weeks while doing my "shopping".....part of me says there are always many 814s for sale based on total numbers sold....another part of me wonders if a lot of folks are selling theirs cuz they want the new 814 and can't afford to have both.....
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I've noticed a lot of 814s for sale on ebay this last couple weeks while doing my "shopping".....part of me says there are always many 814s for sale based on total numbers sold....another part of me wonders if a lot of folks are selling theirs cuz they want the new 814 and can't afford to have both.....
Either way, I hope you're right. I'd love to add an 814/GA8 (no cutaway or electronics) to the gang...
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I've noticed a lot of 814s for sale on ebay this last couple weeks while doing my "shopping".....part of me says there are always many 814s for sale based on total numbers sold....another part of me wonders if a lot of folks are selling theirs cuz they want the new 814 and can't afford to have both.....
Either way, I hope you're right. I'd love to add an 814/GA8 (no cutaway or electronics) to the gang...
Ditto!
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...I have to admire a company with this philosophy. Moving forward and not resting on its older models and coasting through the next 40 years. Making innovations and improvements as part of their day to day activities...
To be fair resting on older models and coasting along is not really an option unless your company has guitars in museums, and older guitars are regularly selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is one company with such a resume, took them 180 years to get there, and although guitars based on their vintage models are selling as fast as they and other builders can make them, last I checked they weren't just coasting along either.
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...I have to admire a company with this philosophy. Moving forward and not resting on its older models and coasting through the next 40 years. Making innovations and improvements as part of their day to day activities...
To be fair resting on older models and coasting along is not really an option unless your company has guitars in museums, and older guitars are regularly selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is one company with such a resume, took them 180 years to get there, and although guitars based on their vintage models are selling as fast as they and other builders can make them, last I checked they weren't just coasting along either.
Is the M company looking over its shoulder, or have their skaty eight new models and retro efforts come from within? There were times in that company's history when they were content to coast, and it cost them
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My personal observations and opinions...:
I don't think any viable company is satisfied with operating in the status quo. Taylor, who has surpassed Martin in annual sales over the past few years, has won the hearts of the younger and more modern thinking consumer, but is having difficulty breaking into the more traditional acoustic market - That held firmly by companies such as Martin on the production side, Huss & Dalton, Froggy Bottom, SCGC, etc. on the boutique side. Conversely, Martin holds on tightly to the traditional acoustic buyer where long standing designs, production techniques and processes are felt to make the biggest difference and if it was good 70-100 years ago, then it must still be relevant today. Unfortunately, that market segment is aging, growing smaller and (In my opinion) becoming less influential on future trends as they enter their golden years. They are still very viable and have money to spend, but they are fading.
My personal theory is that the 800 series redesign is a grand experiment to see just how important the "traditional" aspect is to the buyer's decision and how much of it is brand loyalty. Does the use of hide glue, different bracing and a warmer tone make that big of a difference, or does it have everything to do with the name on the headstock and the image that it portrays? Is it really making a big difference in the instrument or does simply telling people about how important the changes are have a larger influence in their decision making process? If the changes are that good and that important, why aren't they also updating the 900 series -- Essentially it's the 800 series with more bling, right?
I've said it before -- I can definitely hear the influence that Andy has had on the tone of Taylor, and I believe it is a very positive change. As much as I enjoy all of my Taylors, my two most recent high end Taylor purchases (2011 and 2012) are also my two favorites. However, I also know that Kurt Listug drives a very savvy sales & marketing team -- Their understanding of the market drivers and how to use that knowledge to their advantage is well documented. I have no doubt this entire product launch has been orchestrated down to the smallest detail. As good as the products are, it is Kurt's sales prowess that makes us pull out our wallets.
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Just as the internet has affected most facets of 21st century life, it has had many significant impacts on the guitar industry IMO. If Bob Taylor had the sniffles and Chris Martin sneezed, we'd be reading and speculating about it in almost real time. Forums like this one, websites by manufacturers/dealers, and an abundance of reviews provide a mind boggling amount of information at our fingertips. I think that this is both good and bad for various manufacturers. While it makes it so much easier to whet the whistle of potential buyers, it does the same for the other guitar makers. In the end, I feel that we the consumers are sitting pretty...
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another sold today.....2010.....
$
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another 814 auction ending at noon tomorrow PST....2005 in mint condition and I won't put the dollars in this time....my point being there are suddenly a whole lot of 814s being sold.....
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It's what Gutch noted: 'Kurt Listug drives a very savvy sales & marketing team'!
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another 814 auction ending at noon tomorrow PST....2005 in mint condition and I won't put the dollars in this time....my point being there are suddenly a whole lot of 814s being sold.....
Currently on eBay there are 20 used 814ce's, 26 714ce's, and 35 614ce's. Considering that there are many more 814ce's out there than 714ce or 614ce it looks like folks are holding on to their used 814ce's.
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"Is it really making a big difference in the instrument or does simply telling people about how important the changes are have a larger influence in their decision making process?"
It affects people differently. I think if you are young you have a different response to such ads. As we get older I think we tend to become more cynical about claims. For example, to be honest, I found the recent video about the bracing changes where Andy made comments about how he has "turbocharged" the performance to be just silly though it probably would have appealed to me when I was 18.
OTOH, Taylor marketing quite correctly couldn't care less what someone my age thinks about a guitar or their advertising method and I fully understand that. :)
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It's what Gutch noted: 'Kurt Listug drives a very savvy sales & marketing team'!
as important as marketing is, there has to be substance in the product also & with the
800 series being there from the beginning is what "set the foundation" for Taylor, imho -
it is not the most expensive, but from the start it has been "the" spruce rosewood model
somehow, i don't think this wave of change that is happening is because sales of the 800 series/814ce are slowing down -
what might have made more sense is a bracing pattern & electronics update, but Bob turned this series over to Andy,
he approved of & facilitated the changes as much as could be feasibly done in a large scale production environment
the list of what's unchanged on a 814ce is much shorter one than what's "new" -
the body dimensions, standard neck width, profile & scale length, the basic woods, the bridge pins, abalone rosette, the source
for nuts, tuners & strings, but how these elements are put together is the "real story" & whether or not it's an improvement, just
different or something else is up to the individual player, but i think Taylor's betting "more hands will go up, rather than down"
as for this being an experiment, i disagree in that if it was, there might have been a series of 800 LTDs released, as there
was in 2010, with the deep body 810e & 12 fret 812 & 814 models, to "test the waters" so to speak & that may have been
the case with the 14 814ce/816ce FE models, but to be "all-in" on the 800s after releasing a few hundred, takes huevos, imho
there are other models that could have fallen into that category as well -
the GA was an experiment for the first 2 years, until it was phased into the numbered series in 96, with the X14 designation
the GS was an experiment in 06 & it took 2 years for it to be added to the acoustic electric series in 08, with the X16 designation
the GO went straight to the numbered series & granted it could be because there might have been some confusion with
the designations ... GO-MS (mahogany/spruce 518) GO-MS (maple/spruce 618) GO-RS (rosewood/spruce 718, 818, 918)
perhaps the reason why the 900s were not started is because that series, which was originally maple, has undergone more "radical"
changes & maybe of the cost effectiveness of R&D invested vs sales volume (more 800s sold per year), not to mention the possibility
that there are chances that there may be some instances where an area on a 3.5 finish might not be 100% glass smooth,
mirror reflection gloss perfect & the Cindy fretboard inlay might look a bit more defined & distinct on a backdrop of black
ebony, rather than marbled, which might apply for for the koa & PSs, but i'd expect AP bracing to be phased in on those soon
there are some customers that are blindly brand loyal, asmartin still sold guitars from the early to mid 70's in spite of
inadequate/inconsistent quality control, while chevrolet built some of the most anemic V8 corvettes & camaros & ford
sold mustang IIs from 74-78, in spite of some of them having 129hp 302 V8s in them, a far cry from just a few years prior
the fact that the 800 series uses hide glue for the bridge & fish protein glue for the braces, i doubt that, in &
of itself, will gain much of an increase sales from the traditional camp because it's doubtful that they'll be able
to get past the 3 piece bolt-on neck & UV cured polyester finish, but if the tone knocks their sock off, who knows :-\
it's a matter of perspective & personal preference, just as there are those that like figured ebony & those that don't
the more highly detailed features of the 800 series, bound soundhole, rosewood edged top, rosette
purfling & the maple micro back strip bring a bit more "bling" to the party & ebony binding was
considered at one point, but Kurt felt that the light binding on the 800s should continue on -
i wouldn't say it was just a "nod to tradition", but paying homage to & respecting the "original" Taylors
Taylor's marketing strategy has changed quite a bit, especially within the last 10 years or so & even in the past year -
when i bought my first Taylor in 02, i could not look in a phone book to see if a guitar shop was an authorized
Taylor dealer because dealers did not state that in their listing & if i went to a dealers website, there was no
mention of that they were or weren't a Taylor dealer, much less allowing any inventory to be listed, but back
then all of the guitars were made in el cajon, all full size guitars were all solid wood, the total production for
that year was probably about half of what it was last year & there were no guitars given away in contests
to me, it looks like where Taylor is headed is where they feel they need to go, as a company cannot stay in
one place they either forge ahead of they get left behind, & they're not trying to be all guitars to all players -
it seems like the mix, not just eBay, there are more earlier models looking for new homes, as compared to 10-13s & whether
that is the sign of the economy or the possibility that some are concerned that older one will be a harder sell in the next 5 years
remains to be seen, but if they're not getting played & will be replaced with ones that will, Taylor or not, that's a good thing, imho
ymmv
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Companies will always strive for improvements and changes. But "different" is not always "better," and is by nature subjective. (Microsoft insists on giving consumers changes and "features" they don't really want or need, and in the process often messes up a perfectly good product or operating system in the name of change.)
The only way to choose between old and new 814s is to play both and see if you happen to be in the target market Taylor is going after with the 800 series changes. Some people will love the changes (particularly the sound), while others will prefer the old.
I know it's not the same thing, but I recently played an 814 First Edition back to back with a 914. I personally preferred the 914, which made me think I'd probably prefer the old 814 to the new. But that's just me, and your reaction could be totally the opposite based on what your ears like to hear.
And to answer the original question, strings will absolutely make a difference, and putting PB strings on an old 814 instead of 80/20s will definitely mellow it out. I don't if strings alone will make an old 814 sound like the new ones, but if warmth is what you're after, it's a good start.
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Interesting observations from the OP. I look forward to trying out a new 814 as soon as they come in at the local GC. Not sure I'm looking for 'duller' sound as described, what drew me into Taylor was the brighter sparkle those guitars had over other brands, but I definitely want to hear the new changes for myself. I'm also looking forward to trying out the new Elixir HD Light strings once they become available.
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Taylor has a booth at Seattle Wintergrass festival (today is the last day), so during a break (volunteer go-fer, not performer!) I stopped by to chat. I tell the rep I'm a Taylor fan, and begin discussing an issue with a 414ce I tried recently. He stated new Taylors need time to "open up", and may sound a little dull right out of the box. Then - he hands me a new 814ce, he has played in himself. WOW! It's all there. Maybe you all are a lot better than I am, but this is a sure thing. I couldn't find anything I didn't like, except the price. Maybe I'll get lucky like that couple in California and find a bag of gold coins under a tree.
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Now...off to watch the Supwerbowl on my DVR. I have 3k on the Broncos winning big!!
Ouch!!! There goes a nice Taylor down the wood chipper!!!
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Maybe I'll get lucky like that couple in California and find a bag of gold coins under a tree.
Are you referring to the Big W ?