It's The Little Things that Matter...

[Gutch]

As many of you know, a few weeks ago I picked up a 12 fret GC in a trade.  It's been a love/hate type of relationship ever since.  I LOVE the feel of the short scale (a first for me), as well as the playability and the tone.  The ease of play makes things come out of my head and my hands that I've never played before.  The tone is so rich, so velvety, so different from what a traditionalist thinks a Taylor would sound like, you have to look at the headstock to make sure of the brand.  It really is one of those guitars that inspires you to play more and be a better player.

However, I have been engaged in a battle with the intonation on this guitar from the day I took it out of the shipping box.  It has been absolutely maddening!  I've repeatedly check the neck for excessive bowing.  I've checked the neck angle with a straight edge to ensure the angle is correct.  The problem has primarily been on the low E string, but had a little issue with the B string also.  When the guitar first arrived, I changed out the old strings with a set of GHS Juber Signature Bronze in True Medium gauge.  They sounded a bit too bright, so I swapped them out for a set of Reds.  They sounded so bad that I switched them out to DR Rares almost immediately.  I likes the tone of the DR's, but the intonation issue really had me thinking that there was something seriously wrong with the guitar.  In addition to teh intonation issue, it was getting to be a serious PITA to tune because of strings sticking in the nut.  It tried a little graphite in the nut to lube things up which helped a bit but not perfect.  It was getting to the point where I may need to send the guitar in to El Cajon for repair.

Last weekend, I was out in LA on business and had a chance to go to NAMM.  While there, I played a few of the 12 frets at the Taylor booth.  Each of them played perfectly and intonated perfectly.  That got me thinking -- What is different on my guitar?  I ran ideas as I traveled for work this week, then it finally hit me yesterday morning -- Strings.  Stopping at Guitar Center on the way back home, I picked up a set of Elixir light gauge PB's.  I figured that if the guitar was set up for Elixirs, then reverting back to them should bring everything back into spec. 

Guess what -- It worked!  WOO-HOO!!!!

Talk about a Homer Simpson "D'OH!!!" moment!  All the problems came about because I was using strings that weren't all the same gauge as the standard light set.  The Juber True Mediums are a sort of 'Bluegrass' medium/light hybrid.  The DR's are off a bit as well.  That little change in size of these strings made a big difference in the way the guitar reacted to my hands. 

Needless to say, I will be paying much closer attention to string gauges on this guitar in the future.  The 12 fret is now EVERYTHING I hoped it would be, and I love it.  The bonus is that I rediscovered Elixir PB's and their good tone. 

Funny how it's the little things that make the biggest difference...

[sthompson]

Funny....as I was reading through your post, I was thinking to myself....

"Strings, dude....Light STRINGS!!

Glad it's working so well for you.  The new mahogany 12 frets are superb.
st

[Gutch]

Yeah, I know!  The thing is, I've used the Jubers on my 912ce for years without a lick of trouble.  That's why I felt safe to use them on the 12 fret.  I guess the shorter scale had something to do with it?  I dunno, I guess you learn something new everyday...   

[davwir]

That is interesting.. I don't think I would have guessed the strings would impact the intonation that much.. Thanx for sharing the info.

[S MS Picker]

The med strings may have been sticking in the nut slots.
Steve

[sachi]

The med strings may have been sticking in the nut slots.

That was my thought as well . . . .

[Go Navy]

I really enjoyed reading your post, because I have the 12 fret Taylor on my very short list for purchase soon.  I learned a lot of positives about it from your report.  I assume they all have the slotted headstock?  Do you think that feature enhances the playability, however slight?  I've heard that it does.  I have not yet found one in a store to try out.

[michaelw]

i think that the combination of the short scale, but moreso the bracing pattern
that is specific to the 12 fret may  be a contributing factor in that the use of
light gauge strings is more optimal, in terms of tone, intonation & overall feel -
true, the pinging of the strings in the nut slot does indicate there is binding,
but the EXP19s i use on 25.5" scale 14 fret 412/612 have been fine overall

this reinforces to me that the 12 fret is a 'completely different animal', but
in a good way & that it can complement other guitars (GC sizes too) well

i'm glad that trying the different strings had favorable results in the end

thanks for sharing Gutch

have fun with 'er

[Gutch]

The med strings may have been sticking in the nut slots.

That was my thought as well . . . .

As it was my thought as well.  Guess we've all been down this road before, eh?    

I tried graphite in the nut slots to try to ease the sticking, but it didn't do the trick.  I was thinking seriously about pulling out the files and widen the slots, but really didn't want to do that as that would be a permanent solution to what should have been a temporary problem.  I have a few sets of D'Addario EJ16s in the drawer which are the same gauge as the Elixir lights (Original equipment on the 12 fret) and could have used those.  However, I wanted to get the guitar back to 100% original specs and then troubleshoot from there.  Hence the move back to Elixir.  Besides, the coating on the Elixirs act as a string lubricant as well as protectant which, at worst case, at least would minimize the sticking problem in the short run. 

I agree with you, Michael, that the bracing and short scale have an impact.  I've had my 912ce for 9 years now.  It's full scale (25.5") and I've been playing the True Mediums on it for the vast majority of that time.  They run only slightly larger diameter on only a couple strings (13-17-24-32-42-56 on the Jubers v. 12-16-24-32-42-53 for the Elixir or EJ16), and I use them to gain a bit more bottom end on the Low E and a bit more volume on the lead strings.  The DR Rare PB Mediums (the strings that stayed on the longest) are gauged identically to the Elixir and D'Addario Lights with one small exception -- The low E string is a slightly wider diameter at .054 rather than the standard .053 for that string.  It is that miniscule 1/1000th of an inch that was causing so much frustration!  What are we talking here, at couple extra pounds of tension at most?  It is truly amazing to me just how delicate the interplay of the different components of an acoustic guitar are - How a thousandth of an inch, a couple extra pounds of tension, a millimeter either way in the placement of a brace can make all the difference in the world on a guitar's performance.  I'm just glad to have them working properly again...

[Gutch]

I really enjoyed reading your post, because I have the 12 fret Taylor on my very short list for purchase soon.  I learned a lot of positives about it from your report.  I assume they all have the slotted headstock?  Do you think that feature enhances the playability, however slight?  I've heard that it does.  I have not yet found one in a store to try out.

Glad I could help out.  It's always a plus to learn from other's mistakes!   

Yes, it's a slothead.  Not sure if all are, but the standard model (Grand Concert, EIR/ Sitka) is.  Do I think the slothead impacts playability?  Not at all.  Once the string breaks over the nut, I don't think the headstock impacts playability in the slightest.  Some argue that the reduced mass of a slothead headstock v. a traditional paddle style has an impact on the tone of the guitar.  That may be but I certainly can't hear it.

Here's my take -- The short scale is a blast to play.  It's the same scale as many of your popular electrics (Les Paul, ES175, your George Benson sig. model), and has an acoustic width nut (1-3/4") so it really is the best of both worlds in the playability department.  The action on mine came in set low for fingerstyle, but also takes a light to medium pick without fretting out on a strum.  Single note solos are a riot as you can get from one end of the board to the other in no time.

Tonally, I really can't say enough good things about this guitar.  Warm but not at all muddy.  Incredibly balanced voice.  Plugged in, it sounds terrific (Comment from a recent gig - "Best sounding guitar I've heard in a long time!"). 

Based on the guitars in your signature, I'd say that this 12 fret would be a very welcome addition to your collection.  Good luck! 

(PS - You Navy now?  I was attached to the Ike [CVN-69] 87-93...).

[Go Navy]

Gutch.....thanks for the extra comments on the 12 fret.  Very encouraging.  Can't wait to get my hands on one.

No, I'm not Navy now....ex-Navy.  Was NROTC in college and then active duty on a West Coast destroyer, chasing bird farms around.  Longer ago than I care to admit (cold war era)!  It was a great experience, though.  So, I was not a career type;  just served my time.

Thank YOU for your service!

[not darth]

I read this thread with great interest, as I too have a Taylor 12-fret in my sights. 
From what I've read, and I could certainly be wrong, is that long-term use of mediums on a GC could actually damage it. 
Same on the GA. 
Only the GS and dreadnoughts should wear mediums (I have no idea about the jumbo). 

But, this also got me thinking about my Stratocaster.
It has had intonation issues for years, and I am so frustrated with it that I've developed a visceral dislike for the thing. 
Maybe strings are my issue as well, I've just been buying whatever the guy at GC recommended (I'm a novice and have no preferences) and I think usually it's been D'Addario XL's in the blue envelope. 
I've also been messing with the screw adjustments on the saddle (up/down and fore/back) and think I've really muddled it up.
That guitar now just sits in its gig bag because I consider it useless, maybe it just needs a proper setup and different strings?  There may be hope!

Thanks!
-Kris

[Gutch]

I couldn't say whether long term use of mediums would cause damage to the 12 fret GC -- I don't think so, but I'm not an expert.  I would say that, in my experience, a full blown set of mediums on a Grand Auditorium choked the tone too much for my liking (Tried them on my 814ce several years back.   Really didn't like the sound and never tried it again...).  Remember that the GA's lower bout has the same dimensions as a dreadnought, and the major difference is in the tightening of the waist to help control the low freqs.  I would think the same principles would apply on a GC and no advantages to be gained from using a full set of mediums on the guitar designed for lights...

As for your Strat, setting intonation is worlds easier thanks to the adjustable saddles on your bridge.  You're right in assuming that playing with the screws is going to wonk up your intonation if you're just doing it willy-nilly.  However, those screws, in combination with a good quality tuner (Like a Peterson Strobe tuner) and a little patience will quickly reward you with spot on intonation.  If you are apprehensive about trying to set your guitar up then, by all means, find a local tech to do it for you.  A full set up is normally well under $100 and worth every penny.  However, if you're handy with a screwdriver and have an accurate tuner, then read up on the process and go for it!  Here's a link to start you off:  http://www.fender.com/support/articles/stratocaster-setup-guide

Have fun!

[darylcrisp]

I've been absent for a while on the forums and as i scanned thru the posts i opened this to read what i thought would be a neat revisit to a nice little GC i had just traded to Gutch..........but

WOW, my heart sank when i first started reading this because i had traded this guitar to the OP and while i had it, the thing was stellar for what it is-and for what i used it for.  I knew i did not have any issues with it while it was in my company since August of 2011. I was almost ready to call Gutch and see what i could do to remedy this-whether to return the Baritone and have return of the GC to me or whatever Gutch wanted.  Then i finished the post and was thankful it all worked out. I simply couldn't figure out what had happened to the nice guitar i knew.

Anyhow, my nerves are shot and i'm signing off now(lol but honest). I've always had pleased people who trade with me-glad this worked out-thanks for posting Gutch.

For the record, i had only used Martin Light Gauge on the GC and they worked fine for me-i tend to like Martin strings.  None of my guitars reach standard tuning anymore, i find pleasure in a half step down or more. For those interested, you can use medium gauge strings on instruments designed for light gauge IF YOU TUNE DOWN. I think Daddario has a chart you can inspect string tension for different tunings. I definitely believe in listening to manufacturers recommendations, but with a little math and thought you can work out different gauge strings and such for your needs. with a short scale instrument and using a dropped tuning such as DADGAD, sometimes light gauge strings buzz and go floppy-they just can't hold the tone you need. Mediums work fine in this situation. You do need to open up nut slots typically if an instrument is setup for lights-likewise if you go from a medium setup guitar and you put on Light gauge, you may need to fill some slots or simply build another nut so it properly fits and works best overall.

Thru trial and error i've come to really like a lighter gauge set of strings on the  Baritone i received from Gutch(john pearse 3260L-tuned C to C). These are 80/20 and all the strings are smaller in gauge diameter than the Daddario EXP23 that was on it. Due to this the A and high E had buzz issues. The neck was perfect, its simply the slots were too large for the smaller gauge strings-i had reduced the relief to where i liked it, and wanted to keep it there, so i simply filled the two slots and recut. Its perfect now. In fact this morning i had it in a "DADGAD" tuning moving out of my C to C setup. It sounds like a Grand Piano!

So, glad the GC is working for you Gutch. I'm signing off now

later taters
d

[Gutch]

No, Daryl, it's not you - It's me. (Why do I feel like I'm breaking up with an old girlfriend?...) 

As the old saying goes - I'm not a moron, I'm just a slow learner.  The guitar was fine when you sent it.  It was my quest to find the right strings that threw everything off.  the truth has been rediscovered and all is good now.  The Elixirs sound good, intonation is spot on, playability is great, and the 12 fret is my new favorite guitar this week.  Odds are very good that it will still be my favorite guitar next week as well.  Maybe even the week after that. 

Who knows what the future holds...