Let's talk GCs

[joshi]

Gotten intrigued by a GC for a few reasons:

• My main acoustic was in the shop and it led me into playing mainly my electric LP the past 3-4 months, something I had never done as I was always an acoustic player. And I started loving it- the feel, the comfort standing, reclining, etc. I've adjusted my aggressive attack more as well.
• I played an 812ce 12-fret recently and was really impressed.
• Have started dealing with a bit of arthritis as I've turned 50 (whee).

Questions:

• 12-fret vs 14-fret. Which one can deal with moderate strumming better?
• Is there noticeably less string tension on the 12 than the 14, or other considerations for arthritis?
• I don't really think I need to spend $3K on this, so either going to look used and maybe consider something other than an 812. What do you recommend in the lower GC lines? I prefer a less bright and more bassy (but balanced) sound.

I don't play beyond the 14th fret and rarely go higher than the 12th. I am a little concerned with getting used to playing the 12 fretter since all my other guitars are 14-fretters.

[Strumming Fool]

Based on the info you provided, I'd go with a 322 - mahogany top with blackwood back/sides.  I think it will provide the tone you're looking for, and you'll have the 14 fret join that will make it easier to rotate it with your other guitars.

[Edward]

Gotten intrigued by a GC for a few reasons:
Questions:

• 12-fret vs 14-fret. Which one can deal with moderate strumming better?
• Is there noticeably less string tension on the 12 than the 14, or other considerations for arthritis?
• I don't really think I need to spend $3K on this, so either going to look used and maybe consider something other than an 812. What do you recommend in the lower GC lines? I prefer a less bright and more bassy (but balanced) sound.

I don't play beyond the 14th fret and rarely go higher than the 12th. I am a little concerned with getting used to playing the 12 fretter since all my other guitars are 14-fretters.

1. Both the 12f and 14f will do well for "moderate" strumming, no difference, really.  It is the GC's smaller body that will limit overall volume vs a larger-bodied guitar, but this is a negligible difference unless you're jamming purely acoustically with guys armed with dreds (or a banjo!), and utterly irrelevant if you even choose to amplify it.  And when you say you've adjusted your aggressive attack, the GC's smaller body makes for a more responsive guitar, yielding more volume with less effort than it's larger cousins that need more energy to drive a larger top with stiffer bracing.

2. The scale length is the same for both, so they have the same string tension.  But since the 12f shifts the nut of the guitar closer to your body, it will likely feel more comfortable, which may very well translate to easier fretting and perhaps a more relaxed hand/wrist than on a 14f.

3. More bass and an overall deeper tone is the 12f's natural advantage over 14s, so right off the bat, you're better off in my mind.  The "normal" 12f sitka offerings may already get you where you want to be ...really gotta try them.  But if you want warmer tones still, definitely look for a top in Engelmann, Euro spruce (or lutz on some Taylors), and especially cedar which makes for a very touch-sensitive top wood, and produces a beautifully balanced voice with forward mids and a crisply defined top end.  And certainly mahogany which will yield a darker voice, and the mahog and sitka tops will be the most common 12f Taylors you will find.  But if you can find a 12f in cedar or engelmann, yikes that definitely be worth making a trip to try out, IMHO!

Hope this helps you out.  I am a huge proponent of buying used: enjoy the search and post what you find! 

Edward

[joshi]

Do the 12 fretters cramp you more up the neck?

Is the distance between for example the 2nd fret and 3rd fret greater on a 12 or 14 fret?

Do you have problems with the slotted headstock keeping the strings in tune? How are strong changes on it?

I saw a video with Andy Powrrs where he said their 12 fritters had less  tension and a slinkier feel, which surprised me since I thought scale length was the same.

[Edward]

Do the 12 fretters cramp you more up the neck?

Is the distance between for example the 2nd fret and 3rd fret greater on a 12 or 14 fret?

Do you have problems with the slotted headstock keeping the strings in tune? How are strong changes on it?

I saw a video with Andy Powrrs where he said their 12 fritters had less  tension and a slinkier feel, which surprised me since I thought scale length was the same.

The scale length is the distance between the nut and the saddle which, you are correct, on all Taylor GCs is 24 7/8" regardless of 12f or 14f.  The difference in the 12f is that by joining the neck further into the body, it likewise locates the bridge/saddle further down which places it at a wider part of the soundboard, thus yielding its different tone and enhanced bass response.  So remember, there is no difference whatsoever in fret spacing when scale lengths are the same; the larger-bodied Taylors have a longer scale length which, naturally, will have slightly more space between frets, but as all GCs are the shorter scale, this doesn't apply to you.

As for slotted headstocks, no difference whatever in tuning stability.  It looks more "old world" and traditional, as well as is said to be a bit lighter.  String changes aren't hard at all, just different.  It's a new thing to learn but certainly no deal breaker, IMHO.

While I don't know what exactly Powers had said, many perceived feel and action of a 12f as "slinkier" because the nut is closer to your body and makes it feel and play a bit differently from a GC 14f guitar, especially in those first-position chords.  For some it is a subtle difference; others find it significant. I personally like 12F, though for me the ideal 12F would be a GA body with a cutaway ...but that's just me.  I think you'll find a GC 12f quite comfortable as well as sound different than its 14f cousins, but only trying them will tell you if the difference is enough to justify getting one

Edward

[joshi]

Edward,

Where do you buy your used guitars?  I’m a little mistrustful of online sales because I don’t know how the instruments were taken care of. 

[Edward]

Sent a PM to you, sir.  But you will no doubt get some recommendations here

Edward

[Earl]

The GC is the only Taylor body shape that I've never owned, but I have enjoyed every one that I have played.  They are very comfortable to hold, and the shorter scale is a delight for the fretting hand too.  Edward has covered the rest of it all quite well.  I'm mostly a 14 fret guy myself, and like cutaways, but I do actually play up to the 15th and even the 17th frets with some regularity.  When I play my two twelve-fret guitars that don't have a cutaway, there are some songs in my repertoire that I just cannot play.

The 322 as mentioned is a nice guitar, and the combination of mahogany top and Tasmanian black wood body is tasty, both visually and sonically.  One of the best Taylor's that I have ever played was a 522 that the local store had for a while.  But I wasn't in the market at that time.  Like at the animal shelter, you cannot adopt them all.......

[donlyn]

joshi,

Never owned a 12 fret, but have tried them. Would recommend trying a cut-away version too. Collectively, what the guys wrote about a 12 fret seems to be not only generally held opinions, but I don't remember reading any dissent about anything they wrote.

Best advice I can offer is play as many as you can. One may say "Take me home tonight" ("Just like Ronnie says"). Not all Grand Concerts are as expensive as an 812, and I think you are correct about buying used if available. I own two 14 fret Grand Concerts, both bought used after playing each in the store. I have actually played quite a few different ones over the years.

The 322 Mahogany over Taz Blackwood was mentioned a couple of times. Prior to 2016 (if I have the right year), the 322 was Spruce over Sapele only, so look before you leap. I always wanted to play the Blackwood model, but the only authorized Taylor dealer in Boston is Guitar Center. Their policy on many expensive guitars is an on-line type of sale only, deliverable to a store. I don't want to buy an expensive instrument I haven't played, so I never got to play one. Nor do I want to buy into such an outrageous business model. I had asked both Boston Guitar Centers about getting one in to try, and was refused by both stores. Actually I asked for either a 322 or a 324. I just wanted to hear/play one with those woods.

Also, not all Grand Concerts are short scale. My 412e-R is short scale, but my 512ce has a 25.5" scale. Called Taylor about this once, and they said they switched standard GC scales somewhere in the mid-2000s.

You don't show where you are located, but if you are in the Boston / New England area and are looking for good used guitars, Try contacting Mr. Music on Harvard St in the west Boston suburb of Allston, and see what they have in stock at the moment. I bought both my GCs there used, and they were, and still are, in near mint condition.

Lastly, I applaud your search for a Grand Concert. Turns out that my short scale 412e-R has become a personal favorite and gets a lot of playing time. I string it with Elixir PB HD Lights. While these are great sounding guitars, they are not meant to be as loud as larger models. Mine do not sound as good if I play them too harshly.

Don

[joshi]

Thanks for all the info. Here is the quote from the article I was referencing:

How does the 12-fret design change the feel and sound of the guitar?
Between the slightly shorter 24-7/8-inch scale length of the Grand Concert and the repositioning of the bridge to a more flexible spot on the soundboard, the handfeel is slightly softer and slinkier, making it easier to form chords and bend strings.

It's from here: https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/features/specialty/12-fret

[Guitargeak99]

I played the 322 12 and 14 frets back-to-back.
In my opinion the 12 fret sounded much more full, had a better bass response, responded better to finger style, and can be moderately strummed no problem. And it’s the one I ended up buying. It has opened up and has only gotten better.

The 14 fret could be strummed a little harder and there is more real estate on the fret board. Making it a little more versatile.
My 12 fret does not have a cutaway, but I do not use a capo - otherwise it could get cramped.
It is so comfortable to play, I hardly have to reach for the 1st fret.

[joshi]

How do you guys like the GCs for flatpicking? I notice one of the guys whose instructional videos I like (activemelody) tends to do a lot of his flatpicking on smaller body guitars.  I play a lot of fingerstyle but like flatpicking country, rock, and rockabilly stuff too.

[joshi]

Just curious also if you could speak to "comfort" between frets 6 and 12 with a 12-fretter. If you play for say 2 hours and you tend to play all over the neck, does the 12-fretter feel more cramped on the higher frets in a way that can be annoying, especially after you've been playing an hour or two?  I do want to try a 12 and 14 fret in the same session, but just curious as this is one of these "learn over time" things that is going to be difficult to tell just trying it at a guitar store. I'm 5' 10" so pretty average size. Again, I don't care that much about frets past 12.

[DennisG]

I had a 12-fret sinker/cocobolo GC that was a terrific guitar, and I'm sorry I sold it off.  It was very easy to play all the way up the fretboard, sounded great, and was extremely comfortable -- not to mention gorgeous.

On another note, I just played a 12-fret 712 with sitka/taz blackwood that was awesome, and if it weren't for the fact that I recently purchased a K12-BE, I might have bought it.

Finally, Taylor is going to be applying V-bracing to the Grand Concerts in 2019.  Before I'd purchase any GC, I'd wait for those to arrive to see what the effect of the bracing will be.  But that's me.

[PaulWood]

I own 3 GCs - a 2010 14-fret GC7e, a 2016 12-fret 812e (with ES1.3 retro-fitted) and a 2012 Custom TF (The 'TF' stands for 12-fret and it's Engelman spruce with Indian Rosewood back and sides, a cutaway and no ES controls). All bought in that order. The first 2 were bought new, while the Custom was 'pre-loved' (as they like to say in some UK used car ads!)

I love them all but here are a few pointers:

1. when I got the first 12-fret I had about 2 weeks' wrist discomfort on my fretting hand, due to the changed position (it being closer to the body than a 14-fret).
If you get this don't worry about it, the wrist adapts.

2. During that initial period, I also found it a slight challenge moving back to the 14-fret - again, don't worry, once your head's 'in gear' it all falls back into place!

3. I keep telling myself that I will rotate usage of these guitars on a daily basis - but I don't! The Custom just keeps imposing itself on me - I think it's the Engelman top - just beautiful. (I generally rehearse plugged-in but always manage to find time for a little unplugged picking, just to hear that sound.)

Just like many Forum members, I am 'of a certain age' and the arthritis is something I've been fighting for years. No doubt it will win in the end but I'm going to keep playing as long as I can. To that end, I'm a committed 12-fretter. Hope you get one, because I'm sure you'll see what I mean, once you're through the introductory phase! Good Luck!