When should a thread be closed?

[DennisG]

I noticed that the thread about discussing prices has been closed, with the explanation that "...the thread has run its course."  Obviously, this isn't the case, since people are still posting in the thread.  I find it annoying and demeaning that forum mods treat us like children by arbitrarily deciding when we've discussed a subject long enough.  If we want to continue discussing the merits or pitfalls of a subject, who does it hurt?  Apparently people are still interested in the subject if there are new posts, and if people aren't interested in the subject, the thread will die of its own accord.

[Gutch]

The important thing to remember is that a forum is not a democracy - It is a benevolent monarchy, and the owner is king.  That means that the visitors operate under their rules, and management determines when a topic has run its course.

Don't like it?  Start your own forum.  That's what Josh did...

[jjrpilot-admin]

I noticed that the thread about discussing prices has been closed, with the explanation that "...the thread has run its course."  Obviously, this isn't the case, since people are still posting in the thread.  I find it annoying and demeaning that forum mods treat us like children by arbitrarily deciding when we've discussed a subject long enough.  If we want to continue discussing the merits or pitfalls of a subject, who does it hurt?  Apparently people are still interested in the subject if there are new posts, and if people aren't interested in the subject, the thread will die of its own accord.

Hi Dennis!  I really appreciate the openness/honesty that you have with this forum.  This will NEVER be a place where one can't express his/her opinions. 

Much to my chagrin, I can't be on this forum 24/7...even though I'd LOVE to!  I've picked 3 other moderators, that I feel best reflect the direction/feeling that I have for this forum.  There may be times when I completely agree with my moderators, and there may be times when I disagree with my moderators.  I've let the 3 of them know that I'll always stand by their decision. If and when I do directly disagree with them, I'd let them know via PM...but never in the open.

As for the closing of the "pricing" topic, the moderator chose to close it...and understandably so...there were some posts...that could have...if left alone...been perfect "kindling."  I still feel that the no price discussion has more "+'s" than "-'s"

With all that said, please don't think for a minute that this forum is going to heavily moderate every single sentence etc. 

We're all adults here, and even though we'll have our disagreements, I'd like to think that in some ways, we're a huge family.  Yes, we'll disagree on stuff...but overall we appreciate and love our fellow members here.

This is for everyone.  I NEVER want you to be timid about posting topics.  I want this forum to be the most open, friendly, inviting place for everyone.

Dennis, once again, much thanks for your openness.  It's an honor to have you and so many others here on this forum.   

[DennisG]

Hey, Gutch, where in my post did I assert that management doesn't have the right to close a thread whenever they want?  I'm not talking about what they have the right to do, I'm talking about what I think is an unwise course of action.  Even in a benevolent monarchy the king allows his subjects to voice their feelings about a ruling, and doesn't suggest they run off and start their own kingdom.

[DennisG]

Hi Dennis!  I really appreciate the openness/honesty that you have with this forum.  This will NEVER be a place where one can't express his/her opinions.

Please tell that to Gutch.

As for the closing of the "pricing" topic, the moderator chose to close it...and understandably so...there were some posts...that could have...if left alone...been perfect "kindling."  I still feel that the no price discussion has more "+'s" than "-'s"

Let me understand this.  Because posts exist where it's theoretically possible that someone might reply to them in a negative manner, you decide to close down the entire thread -- and then apply the lamest and most disingenuous reason?  If you object to specific posts, how about just deleting those posts instead of nuking an entire thread?

 
We're all adults here

Then remind your mods to treat us like adults, and stop flexing their control-freakiness under the guise of "protecting" us.  Unless someone makes personal attacks, posts spam or exists on this forum solely for the purpose of trashing Taylor, please exercise self-restraint.

I was one of the first half-dozen people to register for this forum, I love this place and I want nothing more than for it to be a vibrant, friendly, and stimulating experience.  But what I don't want is for dad to yell into the back seat that we've talked about something long enough, simply because he doesn't like the subject matter.

[cotten]

I know I come at this question from a rather unusual vantage point, but I tend to trust the judgment of this forum's moderators. They were wisely chosen, and often have background information not readily available to others. They won't make the right call in every situation, but they're giving this forum their best efforts. Without them, it would be a very different place.

I chose to give them any benefit of a doubt, along with my thanks.

cotten

[John429]

Cotten +1

[Jack Sparrow]

I was going to comment after the thread called "Moderators" got locked, several posts at the end edited, and now apparently deleted entirely (at least, I can't seem to find it anymore), but I figured to myself, "Give it time, they clearly don't have much experience in running a forum and deserve some leeway until they sort themselves out". Plus, while I find thread closures and deletion to be a condescendingly heavy handed moderation style, at least in that situation the heavy handed moderation was in response to something that could be abstractly construed as a rule violation.

What rule was broken in the "Guitar Price Discussion Taboo" thread, exactly?

What I find ironic is that this moderation style is based on the moderation style of AGF. I have lurked and participated in numerous internet gathering places over the years, and nowhere but AGF - and now, UTGF - have I ever seen threads closed because "the discussion has run its course" or "it's time to move along", also known as moderators simply disliking or disagreeing with posts despite no actual rules being broken. Even official brand forums do not usually take this drastic of a censorship/nanny role or enforce unwritten rules.

If "this will NEVER be a place where one can't express his/her opinions", why have two threads already been locked due to members doing exactly that?

I thought this place was supposed to be different. Deja vu all over again.

[e8n]

Moderation of a forum has is more complex than "what rules have been violated".  It is the moderators job to keep the tone of the forum where they want it.  The discussion about discussing prices had a bent toward other forums, not the best of things to have.  It is also one of those topics that has been decided by forum management, no price discussions.  So why have a discussion about something that has already been decided, so there can be hard feelings?

I've run forums for 15+ years and was a sysop on Compuserve for 5 years before that; running forums there as well.  I've always leaned toward the side of delete/move the message to keep the focus on the business at hand.  This board is about Taylor guitars, not whether there should be price discussion or not.  The topic doesn't fit and hence you could say it ran its course or at the very least doesn't belong in this forum.   If you feel differently, no problem, but calling out the admin in a public forum will virtually never get you anywhere.

The mods here do a nice job of balancing things and for the most part they are just learning their way.  A month ago none of them where doing their current job.  Give them a chance, give them some time and remember that we are all guests here.  Its their rules and their choice as to the tone of the forum that is set.  If we don't like it we can either leave, start our own forum or abide by the rules set forth.

Actually, now that I think of it, this topic really shouldn't be here either.  Sorry guys.

-Dave

[Cindy]

Jack Sparrow, I'd like to address your comment about the Moderators thread as most of what happened in that thread was my doing. In hindsight, I should have posted a comment concerning my actions, but I'm new to this and it never crossed my mind. I extend my apology to everyone as I am not afraid to admit to my actions...and certainly not afraid to admit when I make a mistake like I did with not posting a comment that I was the one to delete those few posts and subsequently made the decision to lock the thread.

In that particular thread, the posts took a turn and headed in a direction that was not in accordance with this forum. Since some of those replies were not directly related to the initial post, I couldn't see any way to edit them--so I deleted the last 2 or 3. Eventually I locked the thread, and again, I should have posted a comment. I'm learning though. Although I don't think I was the one to delete the thread, I will take full responsibility for that, too, as it was on my To Do List.

While I can understand the frustration that some of you feel concerning moderation, the problem is that not everyone can be pleased 100% of the time no matter how hard we want to do the right thing. Some people will be happy with our actions while others will not. There is no question about that. Unfortunately we can't draw a line in the sand and have it apply for every situation so it won't be easy to pin point ahead of time exactly how we will respond at all times.

I too will support any and all actions made by the mods and admin. Not everyone person will see things from the same perspective as the point of view a moderator sees, but decisions are made with the concern of the forum overall. In these instances when we edit/lock/delete threads, unfortunately there isn't one correct course of action that will please everyone. And for that I am sorry....

[dangrunloh]

Threads should be closed whenever the moderators have a specific reason related to that thread.  Discussions about hardware, technical problem, solutions, modifications etc. should never be closed as it would limit the addition of valuable information that might come later.  Apparently moderators didn't believe any new helpful ideas or arguments about the price discussion limits would be forthcoming.  All you get is more rancor.

At the moment I can't find the site policy statement. I presume threads that are about politics or religion, have profanity or personal attacks will be removed entirely. If total removal is appropriate in some situations, limiting discussions in others might be appropriate.

Frankly if someone comes here simply to bash Taylors and talk trash they can go to as far as I'm concerned. If they come simply to ask why we like them so much that's cool.  We would love to tell them.

[dangrunloh]

I wrote:

At the moment I can't find the site policy statement. I presume threads that are about politics or religion, have profanity or......

I looked on the home page and couldn't find it there, but it appears at the top of the subform page.

[Gutch]

Hey, Gutch, where in my post did I assert that management doesn't have the right to close a thread whenever they want?

I got your assertion while reading this sentence...:  "I find it annoying and demeaning that forum mods treat us like children by arbitrarily deciding when we've discussed a subject long enough.  If we want to continue discussing the merits or pitfalls of a subject, who does it hurt?"

In my opinion, your assertion is that it should not be the management's determination when a thread should be closed but, rather, the participants' decision.  My point is that the final decision to close threads in moderated forums is never based upon the whim of the crowd.  Instead, it is based upon the content and general attitude of the posts already made, historical precedent, and the willingness and availability of moderators to monitor the thread.  I've learned this over several years of being a moderator on the TGF/AGF and dealing with hundreds of situations such as this one.  The decision was never taken lightly.  In fact, they were almost always discussed behind the scenes amongst all mods and a decision made.  In reading through the thread in question, I think the mods were correct in closing the door and dispersing the crowd.

 

I'm not talking about what they have the right to do, I'm talking about what I think is an unwise course of action.  Even in a benevolent monarchy the king allows his subjects to voice their feelings about a ruling, and doesn't suggest they run off and start their own kingdom.

And the king and his court have allowed plenty of discussion and then made their decision.  My suggestion, as direct as it may have been (and I apologize if I came across as being snarky), doesn't change - If you think it's easy to manage and maintain civility on an internet discussion forum, try doing it yourself.  You will quickly find that, just as in the real world, rules need to be established and enforced to control the few that threaten to disrupt the enjoyment of the many.  It is a frustrating, thankless job with lousy pay (hovering around $0.00/month).  However, it is imperative that the rules are enforced in order to maintain enjoyment of the site and growth for the membership roster.

After you do that, you'll have a new appreciation for the task that Josh and the mods have taken on for the benefit of the rest of us.

</soapbox>

[InsideOut]

The way I read the closed thread, it had served it's purpose with post #8 in which the thread starter seemed satisied with the information desired had been supplied.  By the end, no new information was being presented.  It was just the same opinions being restated.  As the moderator indicated, it had run it's course. Think of moderators as facilitators, not dictators.  It is the role of a facilatator to keep dialogue progressing.  That thread had stopped progressing.  My prediction for the thread was that is was on the verge of turning ugly.  It was a perfect time to close it.  It was closed with respect.  If you would like to start a thread on the role of Taylor dealors on the forum, it would be more appropriate than moving the price thread in a new direction. 

[michaelw]

the decision to disallow price discussion was made based on input from forum members & moderators,
whih were reviewed by the administrator - it was a democratic process, with more that were in favor of it

due to inappropriate inflammatory remarks & accusations being directed at forum members,
the degeneration of  the discussion & the defensive nature that was developing, the thread was closed

i do wish that question raised here had been directed to the moderator who closed the thread,
rather than a blanket statement being issued, placing blame on all moderators & the forum administrator

there have been comparisons made that reference this forum & it's operation to the AGF -
JR chose to do what was appropriate for his forum & Josh  has chosen to do the same here as well

Josh asked for input on all nearly aspects of the forum (rules, subforums, member preapproval process)
rather than opening the forum with all structure set in place because he wanted it to be accommodating as possible

with a forum, there will be many differences in opinion & inevitably decisions will be made
that every member will not agree with &, unfortunately, it is not possible to please everyone,
but please do know that the decisions are meant to maintain a friendly & helpful community here -
out of respect for Josh, Cindy, Boone & myself, if there is a concern regarding a matter such as this,
please feel free to contact the person who performed the task if it was felt to be inappropriate

i spoke to Josh yesterday for 2 1/2 hr & i was awake until 5:45AM, not trying to justify my actions,
but to present it in the fashion in which i felt was the most acceptable & complete answer

regarding the moderator thread -
Cindy's decision to edit & subquently lock the thread was executed in the way that either
Boone or Josh or I would have done it. upon further review, the thread was deleted by me &
the forum members that were involved & concerned concern with this thread were contacted

i would like to draw attention to this, if i may

2. No bashing of others personally, or their opinions.  If at any time you feel that you have been personally called out please
    contact me or one of our other wonderful moderators.  You count here and are welcome on this forum. 

a blanket statement was made to Josh & the other moderators -
our names are listed when posts are edited or other actions taken

if one feels that the action was unjust or if one feels they are on the receiving end of an accusation,
please feel free to contact, Cindy, Boone or Josh & we will be glad to help resolve it best we can

unfortunately. the reason why i decided to lock the thread in question was i saw it taking the
direction this thread seemed to be taking as well, with a scattering of accusational & defensive posts -
i do appreciate the understanding of several forum members & i would like to think the 'right call' was made

the previous thread was posted 2 days after the decision had been made to refrain from price discussion -
the topic of the discussion was, in our opinion, a valid one, but the way the discussion was headed was not

thank you for support & participation in this forum & please help us make this place continue to be enjoyable & informative -
i hope that everyone feels a sense of community here & that this forum would be
a place that one would be proud to invite your friends to participate in as well

Josh, Cindy, Boone & myself would like to wish everyone here & their families & friends
HAPPY NEW YEAR !i hope that 2012 is off to great start for everyone & that this year will exceed all of your personal expectations

m


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