12 Frets or 14 Frets?

[Gary-N-LA]

Coming from a few years playing classical, I'm very attracted to the idea of a fingerpicking steel string guitar with 12 frets to the neck, rather than 14.  More compact and more what feels right in my arms.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 12-fret version of, say, an 812ce?

[MexicoMike]

I also came to steel strings from 12 fret nylon string (flamenco) guitars.   I routinely do barre chords up high and I need the access of 14 fret.  OTOH, I bought a 414ce cutaway thinking I'd use the access to play higher but it has turned out in over a year of owning the guitar, I never actually do it so I didn't need the cutaway.  SOmetimes you don't know for sure what you want/need until after you try whatever…

I would suggest a 14 simply because it gives you a bit more flexibility but if you are fairly sure you will never need the extra frets AND/OR you don't care for the balance/length of the 14, stick with a 12.

[ksquared]

From what I've heard...
Supposedly, a slotted headstock 12 fret will have greater volume vs a 14 fret (or 12 fret for that matter) paddle headstock because of the slotted head stock's increased break angle from the nut to the tuning posts.  But that is a bit subjective.  Also Taylor 12 fret guitars have different bracing when compared to their 14 fret counterparts.  At least in the grand concert size, the bridge / saddle are the same distance away from the sound hole as the 12th fret (where the body meets the neck) is away from the sound hole.  IMO, this adds a bit more punch / bass / and balance.  As MexicoMike mentioned, the 12 fretter can limit access high up the neck.  I depends on your needs.  For me I rarely access frets past the 13th or 14th fret.

[jpmist]

"What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 12-fret version of, say, an 812ce?"

Well you basically nailed it, a 812 size is more compact, then add to that the shorter scale neck and then the even shorter 12 fret neck and you've gained over an inch where your left hand will be closer to you. The grand concert 12 fret is a really comfortable couch guitar.

As for fingerstyle, I think there's more dynamic range with a 12 fret, you can play softly without sounding thin or as loud as you like. Then there's the extra depth of tone you get from all the wound strings. Dropping the bridge to the sweet spot gives more volume as well.

This doesn't get mentioned much, but if you play with a capo, your tone is not going to thin out as much playing a capo on a 12 fret because you have more depth of tone to begin with.

A disadvantage is if you're so used to Taylors normal bright tone you can't get used to how their 12 fret sounds. I really wouldn't buy one you couldn't try out or return. There's a distinct difference in tone between a 14 and 12 fret and I've gotten to the point where I don't really enjoy a 14 fret anymore, my 812 just doesn't get much use now.

A possible disadvantage to 12 frets is a possible loss of clarity since you're now loaded up with more mid-range and bass tones. IMHO, Taylor's first 12 Fret model, which I once owned, suffered a loss of brightness that I think they've fixed now with improved bracing. A spruce top cures this brightness deficit as would brighter sounding 80/20s, although the warmer phos/bronze elixars are my favorites.

As a side note, with a mahogany topped 12 Fret, I've found that going to lighter gauges for the bass E and A string really helps improve the clarity of all the strings. Similar in idea to Taylor's new HD gauges, it seems that a bit less string tension from the 2 bass strings gives the higher strings a bit more definition and a better balance overall. I did that with a all mahogany 512 I was about to give up on and it's a keeper now.

I'd say give the 812 12 fret a try if you can find one, you'll know in the first few minutes if you like it or not.

[DennisG]

"What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 12-fret version of, say, an 812ce?"

Well you basically nailed it, a 812 size is more compact, then add to that the shorter scale neck and then the even shorter 12 fret neck and you've gained over an inch where your left hand will be closer to you.

I don't think a 12-fret neck makes the neck shorter -- it's simply joining the guitar's body at the 12th fret instead of the 14th.  The scale length on my 12-fret is the same as any short-scale guitar.  And you can even have a 12-fret neck on a standard scale length guitar.

[MB]

Different tools for different jobs. Having a 12 fret in your toolbox is nice, but you may not use it for all purposes.
It is a quieter guitar in a room than a 14 fret, but it does record nice. It is more intimate and has a sweeter tone. It has it's place, just like a 12 string has it's place, but you wouldn't probably use a 12 string all the time either. Or a baritone....it is awesome when appropriate, but you most likely wouldn't play it all the time. But each has it's place in your toolbox depending on your needs. I ended up going round and round on the whole 12 fret thing until I realized it's purpose/place in my stable/style. Every player is different so it's hard to recommend any particular guitar to you. But like someone here said, you have to play one, even live with it for a while to figure it out. If you are after just one guitar that does many things, then it's probably not a 12 fret. Play one and see what you think. It might be all you need!

I do own an 812ce 12 fret, but have not played an 812ce so I have no experience with the differences/advantages between the two. I can tell you that I play my 814ce or 514e at the gig, but when I'm at home...the 12 fret gets my attention most of the time these days. And that could change I suppose. Next week I might be plugging the Les Paul into a Marshall and those are tools of a different ilk!

Good Luck with it....and most of all....enjoy these awesome guitars!

[Jersey tuning]

JPMIST brings up a great point regarding potential reduced clarity on a 12-fret.  I own no less than 3 12-fret small bodied guitars.  My sinker redwood-topped Taylor is a little muddy played fingerstyle but is endlessly legato lightly strummed. My Adirondack spruce-topped Froggy Bottom is clear as a bell--and loud!.

Go adi spruce with a 12-fret!!!!

[davwir]

Its really a very subjective thing, but 12 frets tend to be slightly sweeter and warmer, in my opinion.
In every brand.
Not sure I would agree with one of the notes below that there is a "loss of brightness" on a Taylor 12 Fret, I dont think any Taylor guitar has generally ever been accused of that! I actually prefer cedar and redwood tops to adi on most Taylors, as it adds a nice warmth I prefer..
Gary, I sent you a  PM, as well..

[Gary-N-LA]

MB, having thoroughly enjoyed your review of your new 812ce 12 Fret First Edition (the very guitar I think might be the perfect instrument for me), I was surprised to hear your lack of enthusiasm about it now, particularly after such a short time. 

Since purchasing my 814ce Sunburst two months ago, I've gradually realized it may be too large for me, and may not suit my fingerstyle technique.  I find it's difficult for me to get enough response/volume out of the guitar with my less-than-aggressive technique.  So that 812ce 12-fret looks awfully tempting, particularly if it responds to a light touch.  But it sounds like your honeymoon with it was short lived.  Am I misreading your comments?

Different tools for different jobs. Having a 12 fret in your toolbox is nice, but you may not use it for all purposes.
It is a quieter guitar in a room than a 14 fret, but it does record nice. It is more intimate and has a sweeter tone. It has it's place, just like a 12 string has it's place, but you wouldn't probably use a 12 string all the time either. Or a baritone....it is awesome when appropriate, but you most likely wouldn't play it all the time. But each has it's place in your toolbox depending on your needs. I ended up going round and round on the whole 12 fret thing until I realized it's purpose/place in my stable/style. Every player is different so it's hard to recommend any particular guitar to you. But like someone here said, you have to play one, even live with it for a while to figure it out. If you are after just one guitar that does many things, then it's probably not a 12 fret. Play one and see what you think. It might be all you need!

I do own an 812ce 12 fret, but have not played an 812ce so I have no experience with the differences/advantages between the two. I can tell you that I play my 814ce or 514e at the gig, but when I'm at home...the 12 fret gets my attention most of the time these days. And that could change I suppose. Next week I might be plugging the Les Paul into a Marshall and those are tools of a different ilk!

Good Luck with it....and most of all....enjoy these awesome guitars!

[jpmist]

"What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 12-fret version of, say, an 812ce?"

Well you basically nailed it, a 812 size is more compact, then add to that the shorter scale neck and then the even shorter 12 fret neck and you've gained over an inch where your left hand will be closer to you.

I don't think a 12-fret neck makes the neck shorter -- it's simply joining the guitar's body at the 12th fret instead of the 14th.  The scale length on my 12-fret is the same as any short-scale guitar.  And you can even have a 12-fret neck on a standard scale length guitar.

Yeah, my comment didn't come out right. Point I was trying to make was that there were 3 distances for your left hand, the longest would be a standard scale 14 fret, closer would be a standard scale 12 fret and then, closest of all, a short scale 12 fret. I have all three.

[fretted]

I have . . . eh  . . .  several guitars, a  few are Taylors. I recently acquired a 522 12 fret (mahogany top). The 12 fret has a richness to the treble that none of my other guitars have including a Martin D-15 and a Martin 000-15 (both with mahogany tops). And a Taylor Mahogany Mini too for that matter.  There is less "string" in the tone of the 12 fret and more of a holistic pure tone as if a string were not even involved. I know that's kind of vague,  but that's how it seems to me.

[MB]

Hi Gary-N-LA,
I'm glad you enjoyed the review...it was a bit of work and I'm happy that it was useful for you.
To answer your question, I think you may have misread my comments. I am still loving the 12 fret! If anything, my enthusiasm for it has grown over the past few days. I was simply trying to say that 12 frets in general are more of a specialty guitar. I think someone who expects it to be a super versatile "does it all" type of instrument would be disappointed. It is a guitar that some would appreciate while others would have no idea what to do with it. MY particular use for the 12 fret is specific. I didn't buy it to use on my gigs. I got it to play at home in my studio....and on the couch. It's easy on the hands too. My old fingers like the comfort factor. But at a gig, I have my tools for that and they work great for me. If I were to only have ONE guitar, heaven forbid, it would most likely be the 814ce and not a 12 fret.

Are you planning on replacing your 814 with the 12 fret? Would it end up being your main guitar? Will you be performing with it?
From your comments it sounds like you have a concern with the dynamic range, the guitar responding to a light touch.
For what it's worth, My 2012 814ce is just as responsive as the 2014 812ce 12 fret. But the 814 has a much larger dynamic range too. It gets much louder than the 812ce 12 fret is capable of. They both get quiet too...but I think the 12 fret has a sweeter tone when playing those quieter passages, but when pushed would not hold up as well as the 814. Side by side if you were all out strumming, the 814 would blow the 12 fret away. The question is, how would a guitar like that work for YOU?

My honeymoon with the 12 fret has only just begun! It is perhaps my favorite....right now.... 

[Jersey tuning]

There is less "string" in the tone of the 12 fret and more of a holistic pure tone as if a string were not even involved. I know that's kind of vague,  but that's how it seems to me.

Taylor's 12-fret GC in my stable has less string separation tone than my other 12 frets, yielding an amazing legato tone when lightly strummed-- as if strings were not involved

[michaelw]

compared a GC8 12 fret & a pre CV 812ce this afternoon -
the nut on the 12 fret is basically where the 1st fret is on a 14 fret, so tuning a 14 fret down half a step & capo on 1 will give a
pretty good idea, but not 100% exact, of how the fret spacing will feel, although on the 14 fretter it will be 13 frets to the body

using a .96mm gator grip. the bass response was h-u-g-e on the12 fret, bigger than a GA & when i compared it to a GS
with mediums & 25.5" scale, i thought that putting lights on a 24 7/8" scale GS would likely narrow the margin quite a bit -
the position of the bridge on the 12 fret was quite a bit lower & further away from the soundhole than on the 14 fret &
even when strumming close to the bridge, the tone didn't get thin or "tinny", it remained deep, warm, rich & really sweet

the one thing i didn't care for was the tuning action on the slothead, which in & of itself would be a "deal-breaker" to me,
but a Custom ordered GA 12 fret with a solid headstock, 2014 800 series appointments & the HP package ...