Author Topic: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought  (Read 5985 times)

timfitz63

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Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« on: February 18, 2014, 11:14:11 AM »
"beachbum205's" thread about his new-to-him 12-string 450 got me wondering if anyone might be able to provide some tonewood suggestions for me?  I'm giving some serious thought to doing a custom 12-string dreadnought, since Taylor no longer offers them in their standard line-up.

The early favorite for the top wood on this guitar is European Spruce; I really like the way it sounds on the BR-V and 614ce-LTD that I own, and thought it would suit a 12-string guitar as well.  Then I figured:  as long as I was going to do a custom build, why not go with an alternate body style, like a Dreadnought?

I want to do something for the backs/sides that would be 'off-menu' (i.e., not a wood that's available in the standard Taylor line-up) and be visually striking; but that will also remain suited to my sonic tastes.  Something favoring the brighter end of the sonic spectrum (a la the 656ce) but evenly balanced across the tone range (I don't care much for the mid-range 'scoop' of rosewood, although on a 12-string I don't notice is as much); and perhaps with some extra 'warmth' (i.e., similar to the K66ce I have).

Walnut crossed my mind.  It can be very striking visually, but I'm not quite sure how it would sound on a 12-string dreadnought.  I've liked the sound of walnut on Taylor's smaller-bodied guitars (Grand Concert and Grand Auditorium), but haven't been blown away by it on the larger bodies (Grand Symphony and Grand Concert); having never heard it on a Dreadnought, I'm trying to imagine where my preference there would lie...

Joe at Empire Music is going to be making a trip out to Taylor soon, and promises to rummage through their tonewood stash for me with these factors in mind.  So we'll see what's ultimately available.  But I wouldn't mind considering alternatives beforehand.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

DennisG

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 06:32:13 PM »
I'm a huge fan of cocobolo.  Here's what it sounds like on a dreadnought ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc60jY_ploY
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timfitz63

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 01:47:42 PM »
I'm a huge fan of cocobolo.  Here's what it sounds like on a dreadnought ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc60jY_ploY

Cocobolo often has a very striking appearance, and that was a nice-sounding dreadnought, but I'm not sure I want to wrestle with the deep-bodied version!  I kind-of wish she'd strummed it a bit more to give me the full effect, though!

I've only personally played one guitar that had cocobolo back/sides:  a 2012 Spring Limited 814ce.  Sonically, it struck me a lot like rosewood:  very clearly defined on the top and bottom ends, but a pronounced mid-range 'scoop.'  Not sure if it's for me, since I'm not a vocalist; but I've played a few rosewood 12-strings, and I think the octave strings tend to mask that 'scoop,' at least to my ears.  Perhaps cocobolo would be one to consider...?  Thanks!
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

mgap

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 02:44:49 PM »
I'm a huge fan of cocobolo.  Here's what it sounds like on a dreadnought ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc60jY_ploY

Cocobolo often has a very striking appearance, and that was a nice-sounding dreadnought, but I'm not sure I want to wrestle with the deep-bodied version!  I kind-of wish she'd strummed it a bit more to give me the full effect, though!

I've only personally played one guitar that had cocobolo back/sides:  a 2012 Spring Limited 814ce.  Sonically, it struck me a lot like rosewood:  very clearly defined on the top and bottom ends, but a pronounced mid-range 'scoop.'  Not sure if it's for me, since I'm not a vocalist; but I've played a few rosewood 12-strings, and I think the octave strings tend to mask that 'scoop,' at least to my ears.  Perhaps cocobolo would be one to consider...?  Thanks!

I have that guitar you speak of.  I actually never thought of it having a mid-range scoop, I just don't hear it.  Also here is a tone chart that shows Cocobolo as being even steven for tone from top to bottom end.
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timfitz63

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 03:21:36 PM »
I'm a huge fan of cocobolo.  Here's what it sounds like on a dreadnought ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc60jY_ploY

Cocobolo often has a very striking appearance, and that was a nice-sounding dreadnought, but I'm not sure I want to wrestle with the deep-bodied version!  I kind-of wish she'd strummed it a bit more to give me the full effect, though!

I've only personally played one guitar that had cocobolo back/sides:  a 2012 Spring Limited 814ce.  Sonically, it struck me a lot like rosewood:  very clearly defined on the top and bottom ends, but a pronounced mid-range 'scoop.'  Not sure if it's for me, since I'm not a vocalist; but I've played a few rosewood 12-strings, and I think the octave strings tend to mask that 'scoop,' at least to my ears.  Perhaps cocobolo would be one to consider...?  Thanks!

I have that guitar you speak of.  I actually never thought of it having a mid-range scoop, I just don't hear it.  Also here is a tone chart that shows Cocobolo as being even steven for tone from top to bottom end.


Hmm.  Well, something about its tone struck me as very much like rosewood...  Perhaps I'm not accurately attributing the particular characteristic that I heard...?  Still trying to learn the correct usages of some of the terminology...

For some reason, I am no longer seeing the attachments that people are posting; so I can't view the chart you mentioned...  Being a new member to this forum, I'm not sure if the moderators need to 'clear' me to view them, or if I've inadvertently turned off something in my settings (which I've been tinkering with since joining), or what...?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:24:52 PM by timfitz63 »
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Jersey tuning

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 08:51:56 PM »
I'm a fan of Taylor Koa 12-strings.  Wonder how a Koa DN would work out
CURRENTLY PLAYING

'30 Martin 2-17 solid Mahogany
'97 Tacoma PK-30 Sitka/koa
'99 Alhambra 11C classical cedar/EIR
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'07 Breedlove Atlas 12-string Sitka/Mahogany
'10 Froggy Bottom "C" Adi/Brazilian   
'11 TAYLOR BTO GC 12-fret sinker/EIR.  
'14 Alvarez Baritone Sitka/Mahogany
'18 Cordoba hybrid Flamenco Euro Spruce/Ziricote
'23 M. Colbert Baritone Alaskan Sitka/Black Limba multiscale with Manzer wedge

michaelw

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 11:07:29 PM »
a deep body X10 (a 12'er would be a X50), macassar ebony back & sides, if it's available "off-menu",
sinker redwood (hi $) or adirondack top with adi bracing would complement your 2 X16 12'ers well. imho 8)
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timfitz63

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 11:46:53 AM »
I'm a fan of Taylor Koa 12-strings.  Wonder how a Koa DN would work out

I've pondered that myself; but I already have a K66ce, so I kind-of wanted to do a different wood than koa (or for that matter, maple, as in my 656ce).

But since it's likely to be a 12-string Dreadnought (DN), which is otherwise unavailable; and if they have a particularly striking set of koa to pair with a European Spruce top, then perhaps I'll go that way...?

a deep body X10 (a 12'er would be a X50), macassar ebony back & sides, if it's available "off-menu",
sinker redwood (hi $) or adirondack top with adi bracing would complement your 2 X16 12'ers well. imho 8)


Macassar also crossed my mind.  Macassar is also the top wood on my 12-string T5.  Again, I kind-of wanted to do another wood than is on my existing 12-strings; although in the case of the T5's, the top wood seems to 'color' rather than 'supply' the basic acoustic sound of the guitar.

Also, I hadn't really even been considering another top wood, as I went into this mental exercise by building the guitar around a particular top wood (European Spruce).  I'm working with Joe at Empire Music on this, and he'd expressly mentioned to me that he was going to Taylor in March to build some customs using European Spruce.  Already owning a BR-V and a 614ce 2013 Spring Limited, both with European Spruce tops, I found that I preferred it to the typically-used Sitka Spruce; and even to Adirondak Spruce, which I'd 'test driven' on a Custom DN (Adirondak/Mahogany) that Joe had in his shop about 8 months ago (frankly, I preferred the sound of the standard, Engelmann-Spruce-topped 510 that Joe had at the same time, which is what just let me to have him order me in a 510ce rather than go for that Custom DN).  So it occurred to me that European Spruce might lend itself really well to a 12-string guitar, and the concept took off from there.  Given that European Spruce was the starting point, I'd sort-of eliminated Macassar simply on the basis that I didn't necessarily want to seemingly copy the 2013 Spring Limited guitars.  But that was before I'd moved away from the idea of doing the 12-string as the 'standard' Grand Symphony body to a Dreadnought; so, given that the intent is to do a different body style as a 12-string, perhaps I should reconsider Macassar as well...?

As another aside, I tried another Custom DN that Joe briefly had at his shop during a Road Show:  one with a 'Sinker' top.  It was a beautiful-looking guitar; but frankly, I was not impressed at all with that guitar's sound.  Neither was my brother.  And to tell the truth, I got the distinct impression that Joe didn't think that much of it either.  I can't remember the back/side wood on it, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Macassar, so it's probably not a fair comparison on my part.

As yet another aside, Joe had a Custom GS-12 up at his shop for a while:  'Sinker' top over Rosewood back/sides.  The more I played that, the more I liked it.  Fortunately for my wallet, someone else bought it before I got too attached to it.  On the whole, though, I still think I preferred the sound of my 656ce and K66ce to that Custom GS-12...

All good suggestions, guys!  Keep 'em comin'!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 03:12:04 PM by timfitz63 »
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Music Junkie

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 12:03:59 PM »
I ordered a 556e last year, and I am thrilled with it so far.  I play it every night, and love the feel and the tone it produces.  I wanted to try and stay away from the chimey sounds a 12-string can produce.  Since I own a solid mahogany Martin 000-15, I knew that I liked what it had to offer in comparison to my Taylor 814ce (spruce / rosewood), which is amazing in it's own right.  The 556e has Engelmann Spruce top with solid Mahogany back and sides.  I keep it tuned down a full step, and I think it does a solid job of avoiding the chimey sound.  It is the grand symphony size, so it is the same width as a dread, but shaped differently.

I hope you find what you are looking for, because they are fun as heck! ;D

MJ

timfitz63

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 03:21:31 PM »
I ordered a 556e last year, and I am thrilled with it so far.  I play it every night, and love the feel and the tone it produces.  I wanted to try and stay away from the chimey sounds a 12-string can produce.  Since I own a solid mahogany Martin 000-15, I knew that I liked what it had to offer in comparison to my Taylor 814ce (spruce / rosewood), which is amazing in it's own right.  The 556e has Engelmann Spruce top with solid Mahogany back and sides.  I keep it tuned down a full step, and I think it does a solid job of avoiding the chimey sound.  It is the grand symphony size, so it is the same width as a dread, but shaped differently...

Along the way, I've considered adding a 556ce to my stable as well.  But ultimately, I've convinced myself (perhaps incorrectly) that the K66ce I already have is probably close enough to that in 'warmth' for my tastes.  Maybe someday if I actually get to play one, I'll reverse that perception...?  But I actually like the 'chimey' quality of 12-strings, in general; and my 656ce, in particular.  I guess that's why they build all different kinds -- for all different tastes...!

... I hope you find what you are looking for, because they are fun as heck! ;D

Thanks!  Agreed:  being primarily a 'strummer,' I enjoy playing my 12-strings as much (if not more) than my 6-strings.  I think my strumming is more consistent when I play them too; or at least my inconsistent strumming is masked by all the strings that I do manage to hit on each swipe...  ;)
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Music Junkie

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 05:11:34 PM »
I ordered a 556e last year, and I am thrilled with it so far.  I play it every night, and love the feel and the tone it produces.  I wanted to try and stay away from the chimey sounds a 12-string can produce.  Since I own a solid mahogany Martin 000-15, I knew that I liked what it had to offer in comparison to my Taylor 814ce (spruce / rosewood), which is amazing in it's own right.  The 556e has Engelmann Spruce top with solid Mahogany back and sides.  I keep it tuned down a full step, and I think it does a solid job of avoiding the chimey sound.  It is the grand symphony size, so it is the same width as a dread, but shaped differently...

Along the way, I've considered adding a 556ce to my stable as well.  But ultimately, I've convinced myself (perhaps incorrectly) that the K66ce I already have is probably close enough to that in 'warmth' for my tastes.  Maybe someday if I actually get to play one, I'll reverse that perception...?  But I actually like the 'chimey' quality of 12-strings, in general; and my 656ce, in particular.  I guess that's why they build all different kinds -- for all different tastes...!

... I hope you find what you are looking for, because they are fun as heck! ;D

Thanks!  Agreed:  being primarily a 'strummer,' I enjoy playing my 12-strings as much (if not more) than my 6-strings.  I think my strumming is more consistent when I play them too; or at least my inconsistent strumming is masked by all the strings that I do manage to hit on each swipe...  ;)

Being a mediocre strummer myself, I agree whole heartedly with the forgiveness in comparison to the 6-string'ers..... ;D

Jersey tuning

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2014, 05:31:07 PM »
To rephrase what others have said, a 12-string makes an average player sound better, like one is playing with more complexity than the same tune played on a 6-string.  It also is an easy way to add an additional flavor to a mix of players especially when flat-picked, without the requirement of a high level of virtuosity.

David Crosby famously turned a Martin dreadnaught 6-string into a 12 string.  He had many buy offers for his creation, including one from Dylan. 

As for a unique 12-string creation, what about an adirondack top and bracing on quilted sapele?
CURRENTLY PLAYING

'30 Martin 2-17 solid Mahogany
'97 Tacoma PK-30 Sitka/koa
'99 Alhambra 11C classical cedar/EIR
'05 TAYLOR 614ce 
'07 Breedlove Atlas 12-string Sitka/Mahogany
'10 Froggy Bottom "C" Adi/Brazilian   
'11 TAYLOR BTO GC 12-fret sinker/EIR.  
'14 Alvarez Baritone Sitka/Mahogany
'18 Cordoba hybrid Flamenco Euro Spruce/Ziricote
'23 M. Colbert Baritone Alaskan Sitka/Black Limba multiscale with Manzer wedge

timfitz63

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 06:38:57 PM »
To rephrase what others have said, a 12-string makes an average player sound better, like one is playing with more complexity than the same tune played on a 6-string.  It also is an easy way to add an additional flavor to a mix of players especially when flat-picked, without the requirement of a high level of virtuosity...

I'm not sure, "Junkie," but I think we've been insulted; or at least called average... ;)

... As for a unique 12-string creation, what about an adirondack top and bracing on quilted sapele?

Well...  I definitely like the look of quilted Sapele; and generally like the sound.  But I had the chance to compare a XXV Anniversary Dreadnought (quilted Sapele back/sides) side-by-side with a 510, and quite frankly, I preferred the Mahogany 510...  Not by much, but by enough...

I'll keep Sapele in mind.  But I'm, frankly, hoping Joe turns up something more exotic and farther 'off menu' -- along the lines of the Makore that was used in my Custom GA.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Music Junkie

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 06:58:15 PM »
I test drove a sapele 12-stringer for a week (Martin GPC12PA4).  I agree with timfitz63.  It was decent, but the mahogany seemed a bit nicer to me.  Tone is such a tough thing.  We all have our own version of "sweet"... 8)

As far as being insulted, when it comes to my playing, the truth hurts... :o :P

timfitz63

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Re: Tonewood Suggestions for a Custom 12-String Dreadnought
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 07:23:26 PM »
...  Tone is such a tough thing.  We all have our own version of "sweet"... 8)

As far as being insulted, when it comes to my playing, the truth hurts... :o :P

Concur with all.  Nobody's beating down my door to offer me a recording contract or a studio session...  :'(
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)