Twelve String Advice

[BobSol]

Hi Guys
             I love the fuller sound of a well played twelve string and am looking to add one to the collection in the not too distant future. Never tried a Taylor and the ones I have tried haven't been very impressive, kinda "jangly". Not been playing that long, any advice would be most welcome.

[Edward]

Hi Bob,

Welcome aboard!

My advice for finding the right 12 is the same as finding a good 6: play lots of examples and only then decide. 

For me, the better playability of the neck profile, action, and overall feel of Taylor 12s simply "does it" for me.  I've tried to own a 12er for decades; yes, tried many over the many years and loved the tone but not the playability.  All that changed when I got my hands on a Taylor 12 and realized this is how a 12 should play.  I've owned two and tried other Taylor 12s and all regardless of model/price, every Taylor 12 played equally superbly.
So what was left for me was to find the tone I wanted.

Suggestion: Taylor 12 in GS body (and jumbo if you can find them) ...makes a big difference.  And RW is likely going to get you the most bottom end.  Further, try tuning down a full step (to E) and go with medium gauge ...string tension feels the same as concert pitch with lights but the overall tone shifts noticibly toward more bass.  Hope this gives you a bit to think about

Edward

[DennisG]

Further, try tuning down a full step (to E) and go with medium gauge ...string tension feels the same as concert pitch with lights but the overall tone shifts noticibly toward more bass.  Hope this gives you a bit to think about

To E ... ?

[michaelw]

to my ear, the 356 has the most balanced, least-jangly tone out of the 12 string Taylors i've tried -
i imagine that the 356ce should be one of the easier models to locate to try out first-hand

[Jersey tuning]

IMHO, Koa 12's reign supreme in the Taylor line .  I agree on the GS body shape.

[ericjungemann]

I also love the GS body shape.  I have a 500 series (spruce/mahogany).
Fantastic guitar.  I used the standard Elixir lights tuned down a full step.
More richness and bass.  Slightly less jangle and easier on the guitar and hands.

There are other great acoustic 12 strings (upper end Guilds for example) but nothing beats the Taylors in my mind.  And the NT neck is perfect for the extra tension of 12 strings.

Eric

[cigarfan]

I agree with Jersey on the Koa. I played BigSkyTaylorPlayer's at our jam and it was nothing short of awesome!

That said, if you can find an LKSM it has great bass. They come strung with heavy strings though and are meant to be tuned 2 full steps down like Leo did. I have an opportunity to get one and I think I might jump on it. I get to audition it next week.

[Edward]

Further, try tuning down a full step (to E) and go with medium gauge ...string tension feels the same as concert pitch with lights but the overall tone shifts noticibly toward more bass.  Hope this gives you a bit to think about

To E ... ?

Ah hem ...to D.

Ooopsie, and Thanks!   

Edward

[krugjr]

you've come to the right place for info and advice...I discovered UTGF a few months ago and I've learned a ton........and bought three new guitars.....so many, in fact, I may have to sell my 2009 855ce, one of the nicest 12 strings made....a neck that plays like a 6 string jazz and the tone that can only come from rosewood and jumbo, no longer made.....perfect condition........wow, maybe I just talked myself out of selling it! I've seen several 300s and 400s 12ers for sale and a few 500s, but you rarely see the 855s for sale...goodluck with your search and have fun!

[MexicoMike]

There are a lot of threads on this subject.  Basically, IMO, having owned 12s from Yamaha, Ovation, Guild, Seagull, and Taylor and having played a lot of others, there is no such thing as a non-jangly 12 string!    FWIW, a Martin D12-28 had the least jankly sound of any 12 I have played but I ended up choosing a Taylor GS5 over it in many hours of comparing the two at a shop because the Taylor seemed to have a slightly better overall balance.

However, much can be done to address that but the approach also depends on what you will be doing with it.  If you are using it to accompany yourself as a vocalist, you have to consider how the guitar will work with your voice.  FOR MY USE, tuning down is not workable/useable.  Sure, in theory you can capo E position chords up a few frets to keep a song in "E" (for example) rather than playing E in a tuned-down guitar and ending up in (say) C#.  BUT IMO for most songs, capos rob guitars of much of their resonance so I don't like using them except in very rare instances.  THe sound of a guitar playing in c position cappoed up 3 is pretty anemic compared to playing in E un-capoed.
Obviously, what keys you end up in is determined by your own vocal range plus the sound you want from the guitar.

I'm quite pleased with my Taylor GS5's sound tuned to standard pitch with the following changes:  The octave e and a strings are removed, making it a 10 string.  The E and A string are heavy gauge, all the rest are lights.  These changes give it much better bass sound than the oem setup.  The octave strings e and a actually reduce the perceived bass so just removing them will make a useful difference.  Going to heavy gauge strings on E and A will increase the actual bass.  Because the e and a are removed, the total tension on the bridge is no higher than a full set of light gauge strings so there is no issue with tension.

Ironically, the changes I made to the Taylor probably made it sound more like the Martin 12-28 did in the first place.    It would be interesting to re-do that comparison...

[BobSol]

Gentlemen
                  Many thanks for your time and terrific advice. It seems to me that our beloved Taylors are going to be the easiest to play and help me progress. I understand that the bigger bodies are needed to maintain the "fuller" sound. Wow, MexicoMike, you've developed a science to get exactly what you're looking for. I am not worthy. I think the 356ce is probably more than I'll ever need so I think the Strat will have to go. I've really never "gelled" with it anyway. Many thanks again for the help. 

[mgap]

Gentlemen
                  Many thanks for your time and terrific advice. It seems to me that our beloved Taylors are going to be the easiest to play and help me progress. I understand that the bigger bodies are needed to maintain the "fuller" sound. Wow, MexicoMike, you've developed a science to get exactly what you're looking for. I am not worthy. I think the 356ce is probably more than I'll ever need so I think the Strat will have to go. I've really never "gelled" with it anyway. Many thanks again for the help.

Bobsol,  the 356ce is a excellent guitar, and you will enjoy it very much.  I use to think the same way( "I think the 356ce is probably more than I'll ever need") but after about 15 of the most fantastic Taylor guitars later I had to realize that all of Bob's guitars are worth owning.  Now  I don't still have all those guitars I am down to 4 at the moment(I do have my eye on the new 814)and I am pretty happy. because last October I purchased one of the best that I have ever owned, my 514ce WW CV.  Now to contradict myself I am sure the 514  is the last guitar I will ever need. nod nod.

[BobSol]

Hi MGap
              Many thanks for your reply and I totally agree with you. My first Taylor, a 210, is now a year old and just gets better and better which for a supposedly entry level laminate model impresses everyone who hears it and earning very high praise from my extremely experienced tutor. The 510 I bought a month ago really isn't that much better for a guitar costing three times as much but I now KNOW the best is yet to come. Twelve string guitars sound terrific to me but there simply isn't that much choice locally to try as I did with the two dreadnoughts. Seeking advice from the wealth of experience on this terrific forum takes the risk out of ordering "blind". I think its fair to summarise that all Taylor twelve strings are awesome but some are more awesome than others which at my humble playing ability I doubt I would appreciate the subtle differences. Hopefully the Taylor Road Show at my local store will give me an opportunity try some and that ended up with me owning a T5 Koa the last time they were in town. Happy days.

[MexicoMike]

You've discovered a point that often goes unmentioned…  The price of a guitar after a certain, not all that expensive,  point is related to appointments and appearance, not to sound quality.   Certainly, there is nothing wrong with wanting a prettier guitar but the better finish and associated bling doesn't make it sound any better.  For example, you can buy a Martin D28 or you can buy a Martin D45.  They are the same instrument - woods, bracing, finish -  EXCEPT for the appointments.  You are paying the additional money for a lot of abalone and gold tuners.  There is nothing wrong with that and I'd love for someone to give me a D45 but from a strictly functional point of view, you are wasting money if you buy a D45 thinking that since it cost so much it sounds "better" than a D28.

I have a Yamaha dred that I keep in MD for when I'm there.  It's all solid woods and it sounds/plays great.  In fact, the last time I returned to my "better" guitars (414ce, Martin HD28) from 2 months in MD, I was disappointed in the sound of the Taylor and the Martin because I had become comfortable with the feel/sound of the Yammie.

Most of this "better" guitar stuff is based on emotion and the idea that if it costs more it MUST be better. 

$
please utilize PMs for pricing discussions

[michaelw]

You've discovered a point that often goes unmentioned…  The price of a guitar after a certain, not all that expensive,  point is related to appointments and appearance, not to sound quality.   Certainly, there is nothing wrong with wanting a prettier guitar but the better finish and associated bling doesn't make it sound any better.  For example, you can buy a Martin D28 or you can buy a Martin D45.  They are the same instrument - woods, bracing, finish -  EXCEPT for the appointments.  You are paying the additional money for a lot of abalone and gold tuners.  There is nothing wrong with that and I'd love for someone to give me a D45 but from a strictly functional point of view, you are wasting money if you buy a D45 thinking that since it cost so much it sounds "better" than a D28.

I have a Yamaha dred that I keep in MD for when I'm there.  It's all solid woods and it sounds/plays great.  In fact, the last time I returned to my "better" guitars (414ce, Martin HD28) from 2 months in MD, I was disappointed in the sound of the Taylor and the Martin because I had become comfortable with the feel/sound of the Yammie.

Most of this "better" guitar stuff is based on emotion and the idea that if it costs more it MUST be better. 

$
please utilize PMs for pricing discussions

on paper, the specs appear to be the same
http://www.martinguitar.com/model/item/204-d-28.html
http://www.martinguitar.com/model/item/203-d-45.html
but in reality, if one plays 2 examples of a D28 & 2 examples of a D45, there may  be a D28
that sounds "better" than the other & a D45 that sounds "better" than the other, but that
does not necessarily mean the "better" sounding D45 will sound "better" than the "better"
sounding D28 or that the "2nd place" D45 will sound "better" than the runner up D28 or vice versa -
another camp of thought is that the channel routed for the abalone purfling may  act as a "relief rout" of
sorts, but on the top's surface, rather than the underside, & there may  be a difference in tone related
to that change also, along with the larger fretmarkers, the varying density & stiffness of the different wood
grades used for each model & last, but not least, the bridge thickness & saddle height used & the angle that
the neck was originally set at when it was glued in, but that's neither here nor there because they aren't 12ers

there is a D12-28
http://www.martinguitar.com/model/item/194-d12-28.html
& there were D12-45s, which apparently were subject to "spontaneous top collapsing"
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-1970-martin-12-45-12-string-169681421

i'll place my bet on joel's 96 450, because i already have the firsthand "results" between a 91 410, D18GE, D28 & D45 &
for me, & a few others that didn't know which one was being played when, it was the "other" guitar that finished "1st"

if the yamaha sounds "better", & they do make good sounding & playing guitars, imho,
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/yamaha-fg720s-12-string-acoustic-guitar?source=3WWRWXGP&gclid=COfapK_cv7wCFURnOgod63gAMw&kwid=productads-plaid^57310730587-sku^519048000010000@ADL4MF-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^30423536907
then by all means, one would better off to sell the other two & use the $ for something else

ymmv