Guitar Price Discussion Taboo

[DMBfan41]

Genuinely seeking understanding here and not throwing stones.

Why is guitar price discussion so taboo on certain boards? 

I've frequented several boards where it's allowed and those that are against it.  I guess I don't understand how it's harmful.

I fully understand the concept of the MAP retailers must follow and I know we all understand new and used pricing structures differ outside of established retail (ebay, craigslist, etc.).

Thanks in advance for aiding in my understanding here .

[InsideOut]

For one, it helps to reduce feelings of being taken by a dealer.  When I buy a guitar for $1,500 and the next day I see you post the same guitar that you bought new for $1,200, I feel like my sales person took advantage of me.  Sounds silly, but it happens.  Though there are many factors that determine how much we pay for a guitar, emotionally it may be hard to rationalize the difference in price.  It helps keep relationships on good terms.  There are many other reasons as well, but that is one.  Who has another example?

[michaelw]

for me, it's all about if a person finds a great deal on something & that becomes the topic of discussion -
not the product, what it does, how well it works, who makes it, where it's made, what it's made of out of, etc

purely about price & where it was obtained -
whether it be a guitar, amp, case, tuners, strings, capos, straps, cables, etc

it is great when one finds a 'deal-of-the-day' or a 'black Friday' deal, but if a 'retailer' is blowing out a product
at or below cost (perhaps last year's model or they are no longer going to be a dealer), there is no way that a
'mom & pop' or perhaps even any of the dealers represented here can compete with that on a regular basis

even these incidental 'consumables' (strings, picks, polishes, etc), independent
local 'mom & pop' stores depend on selling these on a regular/daily basis -
they may not sell a new guitar or amp everyday & there are amps & effects
processors that are as much as, if not more, the price of certain guitars

i've seen discussions to where it has come down to shipping cost, never mind sales tax &
to be honest, where i've seen pricing discussion allowed, it ended with a littering of price threads -
again not about the product or the service received from the place of purchase, just the price

that is why i made the suggestion/request to please refrain from open pricing discussions -
a PM or a link can convey the information just as well, without a multipage thread (imho)

also, with there being a good bit of variance in acoustic guitars, even Taylors, the one that is ordered with free shipping &
no sales tax may or may not sound/play the same as the one hanging in the store - it may be 'better' or it may not

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

I asked the very same question on another forum about six years ago and got the answer below from one their moderators:

"It's a good question, Ted, one that we probably ought to revisit periodically. The owner of this forum, has felt strongly about this from the very beginning.... Some people haven't liked it, but since it's [his] house, he gets to set the rules.

Here's what he established as our Rule #2...

NO GUITAR PRICING DISCUSSIONS: I respectfully ask that you keep guitar pricing discussions offline. I think pricing discussions in the public forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers. When someone posts that they bought a guitar for from dealer XXXXX XXXXX, that suddenly sets the price for a lot of other dealers to have to match to stay competitive. It doesn't matter if the more expensive dealer offers better service or value-adds, has a nicer display room where the instruments are better cared for, etc. If "YYYYY Guitars" is selling the same guitar for less money, many people are going to buy it. Now if you were the guy that just got great service buying your first Taylor guitar from your local dealer, you're so excited, you come online to see what other people are saying about this guitar and you find out that someone else just paid a few hundred less for the same model, how are you gonna feel?"

I simply can't put it any better than that.

BTW, that forum got too busy to enforce this rule so they dropped it,  but I strongly feel the no pricing rule is one of the main reasons they became so busy in the first place.

[chubakabra]

Genuinely seeking understanding here and not throwing stones.

Why is guitar price discussion so taboo on certain boards? 

I've frequented several boards where it's allowed and those that are against it.  I guess I don't understand how it's harmful.

I guess I have to weight my words on this, given how much frustration (dare I say anger?) this issue caused on the other forum... First when it was not allowed, then when the rule was lifted.

Also, I respect the creator of this forum's right to choose whatever he feel is right for his forum.

Personally, however, I do not understand why it should be a problem. I think information is a good thing. I don't think we are protecting anybody, dealers or customers, by not discussing it. Certainly not customers. I have never seen any forum being flooded with pricing request either, even though this is often a concern for those advocating not allowing such posts.

[barefooter]

I am only a guest here and consider myself fortunate to be a part of a great place to discuss something we all enjoy.  I always attempt to abide by the Rules established by the owner(s), whether here or at another Forum. 

Before I bought my 814, the rule at another Forum was to not allow public pricing.  I respected that and did what others had done in the past.  I simply asked if anyone could help point me in a direction to learn more about the instrument I was seeking and where I might be able to purchase it.  I received several off-line communications and I really appreciated it (lots of great help from great people).  The only problem was that there were several dealers that were highly suggested, all of which had basically the same pricing.  That made it difficult to decide who to contact.  It was like a coin toss at that time.  We currently have some of those people here, both buyers and sellers.  Good people stick together I believe and they all pop up here and there.  I guess I'd say it is like family.

Back to where I was going....  I'd say there are times that someone goes out and buys a nice instrument of whatever brand locally and they are excited beyond words.  Then they begin to use the power of the internet looking for discussion groups and when they discover the open pricing, their bubble is burst to an extent.  As stated previously, one's feelings could be hurt and I doubt any of us want to see that.  If someone locates a great discussion group like this one and seeks private information, I do not see anything wrong with that.  After all, that is the way I located my 814 and once again, I appreciated all of the contacts given to me.  Oh, after my purchase is when things became public elsewhere.

[Terry]

It seems where pricing can be discussed, you see threads that start becoming about the "deal" and not about the instrument itself. I have had my share of "good deals"  and I've had a few good deals that by the time I made the necessary repairs wasn't a deal at all. 
PM's between members will help those who need info and not drag down everyone else.
Terry

[jalbert]

I would prefer that there be no public discussions of price. It's easy enough to ask other members for their private opinions. Hopefully moderating this rule is not too much of a burden.

[DMBfan41]

Thanks to everyone for offering up perspectives.  A lot of these make sense I guess.

When I was shopping around for my very first Taylor, I remember wanting to seek out advice about particular models on 3 different forums.  2 of these had "no price" rules while the 3rd didn't care.  Kinda ironic because the first 2 mentioned seemed to be Taylor heavy, I resorted to asking indirectly via PMs with folks I traded posts with.  The third one, no rules, maybe had 10 people out of a 1000 that could even spell Taylor. 

I'm a firm believer that prices plays an integral part in any product consideration.  Absent of open dialogue in all areas, it can be frustrating to newer people seeking advice about a product.  But again, many of what was said above has merit.  Best advice I can give when price discussion isn't an option is do your own research.  Take the manufacturer MAP, eBay completed listings, regional Craigslist listings, etc., and bounce that against what you are willing to shell out.  In the end I think value is purely subjective.

Again, thanks for helping make it a little more clear.  I wasn't sure how my question was going to be received.  You guys are OK I suppose.

Stay tuned for my next topic: Why do Mormons ride bicycles?   

[michaelw]

there is a difference, imho -
another forum lifted a rule about 6 months ago, if i recall correctly, so by having it here, it is different

just a case in point, if i may -
when i purchased my 614ce new in 02, i paid nearly 4% more then for it than the same shop was
selling them for new in 04, even though there was a list price increase of over 10% on the 04 models

the shop needed to be more aggressive in their pricing to be more competitive with the big box
store that had opened up about 10 miles down the road, due to their 'lowest price guarantee' -
at the price, the big box store could not match it, due to their built-in 'overhead' without taking a loss

when i was considering making an investment of that size, there was certainly more to it than just sound & price -
playability, feel, aesthetics, electronics, build process/quality & customer service both from the production brand
i was purchasing & the dealer i was purchasing from meant a great deal to me (service before, during & after the sale)

all these factors i consider to be 'overall value', which may be of more importance to some more than others

i guess my take on it is - play what you like, buy what you love & spend your $ where you feel most comfortable

ymmv

[cotten]

I've seen the benefits of both allowing guitar price discussion, and disallowing it. If it were my forum, I would disallow it. No, not to protect dealers, but so that the discussion would better focus on the guitars we love, rather than our finding the absolute lowest price.

Though Taylors are probably the most consistent guitars I know, there can definitely be differences between different examples of the same model. I've known more than one person to go to a local dealer, fall in love with a certain Taylor, then go home and shop online for the same model at the best possible price. Makes sense, sometimes, but not always. I've known at least a couple of these folks who were somewhat disappointed by their lowest price version of the guitar they liked so much locally. Same builder, same model, but there can be differences, even with Taylors.

Does that happen often? No, probably not, not with Taylors. But think about it for a moment. If we all focus on little else than the lowest price, within a relatively short time all but a small handful of large online dealers would evaporate.

Don't get me wrong. I'm very glad we have some very fine online dealers who do a tremendous job at delivering their Taylors at low prices!  But then I don't want to lose our local dealers, either. I really think that a forum that doesn't focus on guitar prices is more enjoyable, though I totally understand why one might change their policy when they outgrew their ability to enforce it gently.

cotten

[DennisG]

I've spent several days now reading the posts in this thread with great interest.  I understand and appreciate the arguments both for and against allowing discussions of price, and I have sympathy for the dealers who are affected.

Still, my personal preference would be to allow price discussions.  I've seen both systems applied to AGF over the years, and allowing these discussions seems to do no more harm than to provide one additional data point -- among many -- that consumers can use before making a purchase.  The fact that someone COULD use the information unwisely or immaturely hardly seems like a reason to deny everyone the information.  If we're going to deny information solely on the basis of whether or not it's possible to abuse it, then price belongs on a long list of potentially forbidden topics.

Having said that, I'd like to propose a compromise:  that allowing price discussions should be contextual.   And the context for it should exclude what specific dealers are charging.  Iif, for example, someone comes on this forum and asks how much an 814ce is likely to cost, I don't see the harm in saying that I purchased mine for $2850, if that's what I paid for it.  Or someone else might offer that he's seen it anywhere from $2700 to $3200.

What's the harm in that?  I haven't mentioned a dealer.  No specific price has been assigned to a specific retailer.  If someone wants to know where I paid $2850, I'd tell him to PM me.  In my mind, the compromise (between banning all discussions of price and allowing all discussions) is to put the discussions in a generic context.  We should be allowed to discuss guitar prices, but not bring specific dealers into it.

[Steely Glen]

I've seen the benefits of both allowing guitar price discussion, and disallowing it. If it were my forum, I would disallow it. No, not to protect dealers, but so that the discussion would better focus on the guitars we love, rather than our finding the absolute lowest price.

Though Taylors are probably the most consistent guitars I know, there can definitely be differences between different examples of the same model. I've known more than one person to go to a local dealer, fall in love with a certain Taylor, then go home and shop online for the same model at the best possible price. Makes sense, sometimes, but not always. I've known at least a couple of these folks who were somewhat disappointed by their lowest price version of the guitar they liked so much locally. Same builder, same model, but there can be differences, even with Taylors.

Does that happen often? No, probably not, not with Taylors. But think about it for a moment. If we all focus on little else than the lowest price, within a relatively short time all but a small handful of large online dealers would evaporate.

Don't get me wrong. I'm very glad we have some very fine online dealers who do a tremendous job at delivering their Taylors at low prices!  But then I don't want to lose our local dealers, either. I really think that a forum that doesn't focus on guitar prices is more enjoyable, though I totally understand why one might change their policy when they outgrew their ability to enforce it gently.

cotten

I find a lot of wisdom in ^ this approach and it's one I impose on myself, whether or not price discussion is allowed.  I find that often, discussions are more focused when discussion of price is left out.  On other forums I visit, the membership simply said, "Email dealer X, Y, and Z for below-MAP prices."  I did that (Ted @ LA Guitar Sales, to be specific) and found that to be true.   Some of the "What did you get on Black Friday and for how much?" threads on other forums tend to be less-than-enlightening reading.  It was less about the guitar and more about how much (or how little) I paid for it. 

Just my $0.02 (it's worth less than that....but we can't discuss prices  )

[Edward]

I've always been somewhat ambivalent on this subject.  I sway on the side of "no public price discussions," however, only for the simplest of reasons: it keeps the discussion untainted by other interests.  Without price as a factor (again, on the public board), then we can hopefully feel more free to say what we realy want to say about guitar x or y, unfettered by "well I got it for this much."  I like the idea of keeping the discussion focused on the guitar and gear; the price is a consideratin apart.

Keep in mind that anyone who may disagree with this rule is always free to discuss prices in PMs as private discussions are just that: private.  So long as they are done respectfully, you can get a whole wealth of info from folks who are much more willing to share nuts/bolts when they know it won't be aired in open view.
Just my $.02 

Edward

[DennisG]

Well, let me ask this:  AGF rescinded the no-price rule a few months ago.  Have a significant number of threads broken down into price discussions?  Not from what I've seen.