Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: DennisG on February 11, 2018, 06:14:47 PM
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I was skeptical about the new bracing scheme. Would it be the game-changer that Taylor seems to be touting ... or will all their enthusiasm fail to materialize into a technology that doesn't succeed at delivering the goods? The answer (at least, to me) is much closer to the former.
I'll begin by saying that no guitar I've ever played has kept its tuning intact all the way up the fretboard. Until today. What I was most interested in testing was Taylor's claim of V-bracing providing superb intonation everywhere on the guitar. So that was my first test. I played a song with open chords, then capo'd up to three, then five, then seven. Everywhere i attached the capo, the guitar was bang on in tune. That's a claim I can't make about my Goodall that costs roughly $2500 more than the K24.
Next, I was interested in the purity of notes ... and, again, the K24 delivers. This is a hazier test than the first one, given that I've never detected what Andy Powers refers to as "warble." But even if it does truly exist (to one degree or another) on merely mortal guitars, it's absent on the K24.
Finally, and of lesser concern, was the effect V-bracing might have on overall tone. And, to be honest, I felt that there was no way to test for this, short of ripping the bracing out of a V-braced guitar and then replacing it with Advanced Performance bracing. I mean, you've got to use the same guitar to test different bracing patterns, right? But overall, I felt the K24 was extremely balanced and delivered satisfying bass, supple mids, and typically bright koa highs. While the bottom end isn't as meaty as my 814 DLX, why on earth should it be?! Rosewood to koa. Apples to oranges. I can only say that the K24 sounded good to my ears, with the kind of heft and clarity of many Andy Powers-designed guitars.
All in all, I felt that Taylor delivered on the promises, if not the enthusiasm. The guitar seems to behave exactly the way they said it would, and for that fact alone I give them major props. The K24 both looks and sounds beautiful, and I found myself wanting it very much as I shuffled out of the store.
In a few days, I'll get a chance to try the new K14 and 914. Looking forward to that.
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I've just signed up for a 'New Model Showcase' on 8th March so I'll get to test your opinions 😀
Craig
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I'll begin by saying that no guitar I've ever played has kept its tuning intact all the way up the fretboard. Until today. What I was most interested in testing was Taylor's claim of V-bracing providing superb intonation everywhere on the guitar. So that was my first test. I played a song with open chords, then capo'd up to three, then five, then seven. Everywhere i attached the capo, the guitar was bang on in tune. That's a claim I can't make about my Goodall that costs roughly $2500 more than the K24.
So is this "issue" with tuning something that previously was obvious to you and bothered you? Or is it more that once you played the new K24, the difference was so obvious you "got" what they were saying about x bracing and intonation, by comparison with the V bracing?
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I've just signed up for a 'New Model Showcase' on 8th March so I'll get to test your opinions 😀
Craig
Just be aware that'll be a noisy environment and might not be the best way to test it from a "player's ears" perspective.
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I was skeptical about the new bracing scheme. Would it be the game-changer that Taylor seems to be touting ... or will all their enthusiasm fail to materialize into a technology that doesn't succeed at delivering the goods? The answer (at least, to me) is much closer to the former.
I'll begin by saying that no guitar I've ever played has kept its tuning intact all the way up the fretboard. Until today. What I was most interested in testing was Taylor's claim of V-bracing providing superb intonation everywhere on the guitar. So that was my first test. I played a song with open chords, then capo'd up to three, then five, then seven. Everywhere i attached the capo, the guitar was bang on in tune. That's a claim I can't make about my Goodall that costs roughly $2500 more than the K24.
Next, I was interested in the purity of notes ... and, again, the K24 delivers. This is a hazier test than the first one, given that I've never detected what Andy Powers refers to as "warble." But even if it does truly exist (to one degree or another) on merely mortal guitars, it's absent on the K24.
Finally, and of lesser concern, was the effect V-bracing might have on overall tone. And, to be honest, I felt that there was no way to test for this, short of ripping the bracing out of a V-braced guitar and then replacing it with Advanced Performance bracing. I mean, you've got to use the same guitar to test different bracing patterns, right? But overall, I felt the K24 was extremely balanced and delivered satisfying bass, supple mids, and typically bright koa highs. While the bottom end isn't as meaty as my 814 DLX, why on earth should it be?! Rosewood to koa. Apples to oranges. I can only say that the K24 sounded good to my ears, with the kind of heft and clarity of many Andy Powers-designed guitars.
All in all, I felt that Taylor delivered on the promises, if not the enthusiasm. The guitar seems to behave exactly the way they said it would, and for that fact alone I give them major props. The K24 both looks and sounds beautiful, and I found myself wanting it very much as I shuffled out of the store.
In a few days, I'll get a chance to try the new K14 and 914. Looking forward to that.
Thanks for the review Dennis! Keep us posted about the others you test!
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Thanks for the review but I didn't see a comment on one of their biggest claims....significantly longer sustain. Did you notice anything in that area?
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Maybe not totally pertinent to the convo ...but I achieve the same intonation results on my 914CE non V-brace with the Holy Grail of capo's....The G7th Heritage
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Thanks for the review but I didn't see a comment on one of their biggest claims....significantly longer sustain. Did you notice anything in that area?
To be honest, I forgot about the claim of increased sustain, and didn't pay attention to it. I was somewhat fixated on the intonation issue, which I find far more important than increased sustain. Maybe when I check out the other guitars, I'll try to focus on sustain and do an a/b test. Thanks for the reminder.
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I'll begin by saying that no guitar I've ever played has kept its tuning intact all the way up the fretboard. Until today. What I was most interested in testing was Taylor's claim of V-bracing providing superb intonation everywhere on the guitar. So that was my first test. I played a song with open chords, then capo'd up to three, then five, then seven. Everywhere i attached the capo, the guitar was bang on in tune. That's a claim I can't make about my Goodall that costs roughly $2500 more than the K24.
So is this "issue" with tuning something that previously was obvious to you and bothered you? Or is it more that once you played the new K24, the difference was so obvious you "got" what they were saying about x bracing and intonation, by comparison with the V bracing?
The former. It's an issue that's always bothered me. So when I heard the claim, I took notice.
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I'll begin by saying that no guitar I've ever played has kept its tuning intact all the way up the fretboard. Until today. What I was most interested in testing was Taylor's claim of V-bracing providing superb intonation everywhere on the guitar. So that was my first test. I played a song with open chords, then capo'd up to three, then five, then seven. Everywhere i attached the capo, the guitar was bang on in tune. That's a claim I can't make about my Goodall that costs roughly $2500 more than the K24.
So is this "issue" with tuning something that previously was obvious to you and bothered you? Or is it more that once you played the new K24, the difference was so obvious you "got" what they were saying about x bracing and intonation, by comparison with the V bracing?
The former. It's an issue that's always bothered me. So when I heard the claim, I took took notice.
Cool, thanks for the answer. Maybe I don't play enough up the fretboard to notice and I don't use a capo much - just have never had an issue with that. I'm curious to play one to see if I feel like I suggested: "oh, ok, I get it now". We'll see.
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I was able to sample a new "V-braced" K24ce last night at Empire Music; in fact, I was able to A-B it against the outgoing version, and the sonic difference was readily apparent.
I'd have to say there wasn't any tonal difference, per se, that I heard between the two guitars; that is to say that both guitars still sounded like all-Koa guitars (I mention this to contrast "V-bracing" with the bracing changes that were made to the Maple 600's to give them their "Rosehogany" tonal quality). But the "V-braced" K24 sounded more 'lively' (which, perhaps, can give the impression of increased brightness); and definitely had better intonation when playing higher on the neck. I'm not very good at tuning by ear; in fact, I'm pretty bad at it. But chords played at the higher fret positions on the new K24 did sound better to me.
So I'd have to say that Taylor delivered as promised in this case. Not sure I'd personally have interpreted the changes as being as revolutionary as Taylor is claiming, but I'm far from an expert on the history of guitar bracing/intonation and the inherent short-comings that stem from the solutions. I will say that I personally liked the older K-Series aesthetics a bit better; the new fretboard and headstock inlays looked more simple/plain than the older version. But the Maple binding is a nicer contrast than the older, dark-colored binding -- which was generally lost in the standard edgeburst shading.
Now the $64,000 (or, more accurately, $4,500) questions: would I dump my 2013 K24ce in favor of a new "V-braced" one? No. Would I buy a new "V-braced" Taylor over an outgoing model? Depends...
In the case of the K24, I'd probably choose the "V-braced" version. But I also A-B'd a prototype PS14ce with "Milagro" Brazilian Rosewood and AP bracing that Empire has against a suitable "contrast" guitar that Empire received out of the Taylor dealer "auction" at Winter NAMM: a Custom GA with "Milagro," AP bracing, and "V-bracing." Effectively the only difference between the two guitars was the top wood (Sitka vs. Adirondack) and its bracing ("X" vs. "V"). I kind-of preferred the PS14ce over the Custom GA; but I also tend to prefer Sitka over Adirondack too, so it's just possible that that's what's driving my ear... And also kind-of illustrates my point about the "V-bracing" not really affecting overall tone -- just being more of an enhancement...
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Okay, I just had a chance to play two more V-braced guitars: the Builder's Edition K14 and the 914. Plus I took another look at the K24. Some thoughts:
The 914 was just wonderful, with that rosewood growl we've become accustomed to, plus the type of improved balance since Andy revoiced the 900 series. I wasn't able to do an a/b test with a pre-V 914, so I compared the new one to an 814, which feels like a fair comparison. As far as intonation up the neck is concerned, the V-braced model wins the comparison hands down. I played single notes up the neck and capo'd, and in both cases the V-braced 914 was spot on, whereas the 814 seemed to get more out of tune (particularly the G and B strings) the higher I got up the neck. (Keep in mind, the degree to which a non-V-braced guitar has intonation issues may be unnoticeable to some people and downright offensive to others.) Personally, I'm constantly fiddling with tuning whenever I capo my 814 DLX, so the new V-braced guitars are something of a revelation (with one exception: see comments below on the K14). As far as sustain goes, I noticed no difference between the two guitars.
The Builder's Edition K14 (with torrefied sitka top -- note that my spell-checker insists on changing it to "terrified," which may be appropriate in this case) was an enormous disappointment. While absolutely beautiful, with both an armrest and a finger rest, I felt that the guitar was flawed. Not only was intonation up the neck not improved, it was terrible. I'd have been suspicious of the capo I was using if this had been the only guitar I'd used it on, but I also used it on the K24 and the 914. To make sure it wasn't something I was doing wrong, I took the capo off several times and readjusted the spring tension. No love. Every time I slapped the capo on, the guitar went out of tune. If I hadn't played the other two guitars, I might have come away believing that V-bracing was all show and no go. But the K24 and 914 were sublime. So my conclusion is that this particular K14 is a flawed guitar. Played with open chords, it was wonderful. Mix in a capo and stir, and the results aren't tasty.
If I were dying to buy one of these three guitars, I'd probably opt for the K24 because it offers a considerably different sound from my 814 DLX, while improving on the 814's intonation and aesthetics, the latter of which is highly subjective. The all-koa K24 is just a gorgeous-looking and -sounding guitar that offers a voice like nothing I've ever owned. One nit-pick, though, on the K24 is that it features Taylor tuning machines, rather than the Gotohs featured on the other two models. But then the K24 is also 500 bucks cheaper than the other two. Still, at this price, you don't expect Taylor to scrimp on the details.
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DennisG, thank you so much for the insightful comments on these new guitars. I have a couple of major things to celebrate and had actually placed the K14ce on order. It is a beautiful piece of work but the rubber hits the road at my ears. I think you saved me from a major disappointment.
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DennisG, thank you so much for the insightful comments on these new guitars. I have a couple of major things to celebrate and had actually placed the K14ce on order. It is a beautiful piece of work but the rubber hits the road at my ears. I think you saved me from a major disappointment.
Bohacker,
Please keep in mind that I was very careful to say that I found the particular K14 I played to be flawed. That statement isn't meant to be an indictment of all K14s. I'm pretty sure the one I played is simply an aberration, and could possibly be fixed with a proper setup. In fact, it sounded wonderful when played near the nut. I'd hate to think that my criticism of the one I played would do anything to discourage you from getting your dream guitar.
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In addition to all the pre-V-braced Taylors I own, I have a Rainsong P-12 that I own primarily as my travel guitar and it’s gotten around with a couple of trips to the Caribbean, a trip to Italy, and lots of days in a cold or hot car, humid and dry.
The last time I played it was on a short vacation in Florida last month where I had it with me. I was on the road last night and had it in the hotel room and just got it out and started playing without even thinking to tune it. When I realized I had not checked the tuning (it sounded great), I popped the tuner on the headstock and every open string was in tune.
So then I took a break and read this forum post. This motivated me to check every string on my P-12 from open to the 12th fret and every single position was in tune. I then put a $20 Planet Waves capo at different positions along the neck and again, not a single string out of tune.
Perhaps Andy and Bob are going in the wrong direction and just need to start building unbraced carbon fiber guitars!
Kudos to Rainsong!
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Bohacker,
Please keep in mind that I was very careful to say that I found the particular K14 I played to be flawed. That statement isn't meant to be an indictment of all K14s. I'm pretty sure the one I played is simply an aberration, and could possibly be fixed with a proper setup. In fact, it sounded wonderful when played near the nut. I'd hate to think that my criticism of the one I played would do anything to discourage you from getting your dream guitar.
I thought about that and it's a fair point. Of course spending $xK for a guitar I would expect absolute top quality inspection before shipment so it's still concerning. The right answer is to exercise a little patience and wait until the new models are available locally so I can play, compare and decide on not just a model but a specific instrument.
$ per forum rules
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While I still love my 814ce, I've played my Goodall RGCC up against some pretty stiff competition (Olson, Petros, Dudenbostle, pre war Martins and Gibsons, etc., etc.) and my Goodall always "wins" for what I'm looking for in my primary guitar.
So Dennis, the $64K question from me is will you be replacing your Goodall with a similarly configured Taylor with the new V bracing? How do the two compare?
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So I searched a wide area around where I live and was lucky to find a shop that was hosting a Taylor demo event for their new offerings including all three of the v-class models today. I won't go into any depth on each of them as I think DennisG covered that already better than I ever could but I will say that the 2 K14ce Builder's Editions they had did not have any noticeable issue with intonation anywhere on the neck. They both sounded fantastic.
Still disturbing that such a high end offering could exhibit such problems with intonation but it is certainly possible that happened after leaving the factory. Anyway, nice to know it is not a systemic issue with the K14ce.
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While I still love my 814ce, I've played my Goodall RGCC up against some pretty stiff competition (Olson, Petros, Dudenbostle, pre war Martins and Gibsons, etc., etc.) and my Goodall always "wins" for what I'm looking for in my primary guitar.
So Dennis, the $64K question from me is will you be replacing your Goodall with a similarly configured Taylor with the new V bracing? How do the two compare?
Already done. The first Goodall (sitka over flamed bubinga) -- probably the greatest guitar I've ever played -- I sold to my music partner, simply because she lusted for it. Biggest mistake I've ever made since I've been buying and selling guitars. But she's happy with it, and I play it whenever we rehearse at her house. After that, I bought another Goodall (engelmann over rosewood). Wonderful guitar, but I missed the feel of Taylor necks, so I bought an 814 DLX and sold the second Goodall to a friend visiting from Amsterdam. She's happy. I'm happy. But I'd like a second guitar, and I do find myself deep in lust for the new V-braced K24. So, who knows!
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... The 914 was just wonderful, with that rosewood growl we've become accustomed to, plus the type of improved balance since Andy revoiced the 900 series. I wasn't able to do an a/b test with a pre-V 914, so I compared the new one to an 814, which feels like a fair comparison. As far as intonation up the neck is concerned, the V-braced model wins the comparison hands down. I played single notes up the neck and capo'd, and in both cases the V-braced 914 was spot on, whereas the 814 seemed to get more out of tune (particularly the G and B strings) the higher I got up the neck. (Keep in mind, the degree to which a non-V-braced guitar has intonation issues may be unnoticeable to some people and downright offensive to others.) Personally, I'm constantly fiddling with tuning whenever I capo my 814 DLX, so the new V-braced guitars are something of a revelation (with one exception: see comments below on the K14). As far as sustain goes, I noticed no difference between the two guitars...
I was able to A-B a "V-braced" 914 against an outgoing 914ce-SB today, although I did not take the opportunity to capo either guitar. Still, I would agree with Dennis on the results. Again, I would describe the "V-braced" guitar as more 'lively' overall. One of the musical pieces I've been using for comparisons between the outgoing and "V-braced" guitars is the opening riff from "End Of The Line" by the Traveling Wilburys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMVjToYOjbM); you wind up playing chords all the way up to the 14th fret. On the "V-braced" 914, the "D" on the 14th fret just seemed to ring out as nicely as it did on the 2nd fret; whereas on the 914ce-SB it seemed muted or dull by comparison.
I have to admit that I'm duly impressed by the "V-braced" guitars. At least they seem to be delivering on the promises that Taylor has made about them.
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I just wandered into my local shop at lunchtime and the Taylor rep was showing the staff around a new V braced K24ce.
I did have a play and liked it very much but I doubt I'd trade my K24ce for a new one. The new nut looks interesting though.
Craig
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Already done. The first Goodall (sitka over flamed bubinga) -- probably the greatest guitar I've ever played -- I sold to my music partner, simply because she lusted for it. Biggest mistake I've ever made since I've been buying and selling guitars. But she's happy with it, and I play it whenever we rehearse at her house. After that, I bought another Goodall (engelmann over rosewood). Wonderful guitar, but I missed the feel of Taylor necks, so I bought an 814 DLX and sold the second Goodall to a friend visiting from Amsterdam. She's happy. I'm happy. But I'd like a second guitar, and I do find myself deep in lust for the new V-braced K24. So, who knows!
Thanks, Dennis.
Glad to hear it worked out for you, though sorry to hear how it transpired.
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DennisG:
But I'd like a second guitar, and I do find myself deep in lust for the new V-braced K24. So, who knows!
I feel your pain errr... I mean I feel you longing for a new K24. I have wanted one for a couple of years now. With the new V-bracing how could I go wrong?
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But overall, I felt the K24 was extremely balanced and delivered satisfying bass, supple mids, and typically bright koa highs. While the bottom end isn't as meaty as my 814 DLX, why on earth should it be?!
Funny- that description is almost exactly how I would characterize my 2014 K24e. I love that guitar - it pleasantly surprises me every time I play it. Hard to imagine the V bracing improving on what mine already features. But then, each individual guitar would have to be judged on its own merits. Still I'm intrigued - would like to play a spruce mahogany GA with V bracing (whenever Taylor offers it), because that's my baseline tone for guitars.
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Just a thought - Is it easier to get a pick out of a V braced guitar? ;D
Craig
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Just got back from the Marietta, GA Taylor roadshow, so I'll offer a few notes on the 900 and K series V braced guitars that I tried out.
I was skeptical about the intonation claim, thought maybe it would be too arcane for my ears, but it's really true. I have a riff I play with open strings up on the 5th and 7th fret, going up to 12 and every note was dead on. I was really impressed with that.
Can't comment on sustain, cause we're in a room with high ceilings with 14 other guys mashing away at the other acoustics, but I did get to go into a quiet room and my little riff has never sounded so sweet.
After I got home, I played the same riff on my 322 and ya know what? My 322 notes are in tune as well, but what was different about the V braced notes I think it has to do with that the V-bracing design results in fewer frequencies clashing and zeroing other frequencies out. It's not so much that the 322 notes are out of tune and the V-braced notes are in tune, it's that there are more varied frequencies coming from the 322 that aren't blending on the precise note. The V-braced notes seem purer and more focused, which is why I suppose the notes ring longer. So it seems after 200 years of X-bracing, Taylor has reinvented how a guitar top should work. Amazing.
A bit of trivia is that all the V-braced guitars have graphite nuts, so you'll be able to spot them in the store. One guy I asked said there are no current plans to put V-bracing in the GC body, that decision would depend on how well it was received on the GAs.
I was pleasantly surprised I could hear a difference, cause my hearing really does suck. If they ever do get around to making a V-braced GC 12 fret, I'm definitely buying.
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Just got back from the Marietta, GA Taylor roadshow, so I'll offer a few notes on the 900 and K series V braced guitars that I tried out.
I was skeptical about the intonation claim, thought maybe it would be too arcane for my ears, but it's really true. I have a riff I play with open strings up on the 5th and 7th fret, going up to 12 and every note was dead on. I was really impressed with that.
Can't comment on sustain, cause we're in a room with high ceilings with 14 other guys mashing away at the other acoustics, but I did get to go into a quiet room and my little riff has never sounded so sweet.
After I got home, I played the same riff on my 322 and ya know what? My 322 notes are in tune as well, but what was different about the V braced notes I think it has to do with that the V-bracing design results in fewer frequencies clashing and zeroing other frequencies out. It's not so much that the 322 notes are out of tune and the V-braced notes are in tune, it's that there are more varied frequencies coming from the 322 that aren't blending on the precise note. The V-braced notes seem purer and more focused, which is why I suppose the notes ring longer. So it seems after 200 years of X-bracing, Taylor has reinvented how a guitar top should work. Amazing.
A bit of trivia is that all the V-braced guitars have graphite nuts, so you'll be able to spot them in the store. One guy I asked said there are no current plans to put V-bracing in the GC body, that decision would depend on how well it was received on the GAs.
I was pleasantly surprised I could hear a difference, cause my hearing really does suck. If they ever do get around to making a V-braced GC 12 fret, I'm definitely buying.
Nice review jpmist. Did you hear any talk of the V-brace being introduced in other series of GAs, down the time line. I am hoping for the 514 series.
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I was told by the Taylor rep that all 6 string (steel) guitars 300 and above will have v bracing options by the end of the year.
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Good new indeed Bohacker. I am surprised that it will go down the line as far as the 300 series though. I imagined down to the 514s then maybe it will expand to other sizes, like the X12 and who knows X16 and X18 models could get it as well.
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Just repeating what the Taylor rep said, not that I disagree with the thought. He did also say that specific details on 12 strings and nylon were still being worked out so he couldn't comment on those specifically yet. I'll be interested to see the price difference between the v and x models within a series. Not that I need any more guitars, lol.