Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: DWM on December 15, 2017, 07:41:31 PM
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Seems I have some breaking news. I dropped in to Gryphon Stringed Instruments this afternoon and was chatting with one of the sales guys. He told me that the X-brace pattern is going to be replaced with some sort of radial bracing pattern. It will start on the 900 and Presentation series and work it's way down to the 300. When I said that I thought Andy Powers had done that already, he stated that Andy has been working on this on his own for the last 10 years or so and now feels that it is ready to go. He got to play one yesterday when the Taylor rep brought a couple by. He stated that they just got the authorization to talk about this as of yesterday. Just when you thought you knew what was going on......
Don
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interesting, they announced on a "from the factory" podcast that they have new stuff coming at NAMM 2018
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Very cool, when is Namm?
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Very cool, when is Namm?
Jan 25-28:
https://www.namm.org/thenammshow/2018
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I had heard from Sweetwater that the current 914ce is discontinued. Makes sense now.
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Hope this thread is a suitable place for my bracing question and purchase dilemma. I'm a 70 year-old (young at heart) intermediate level amateur player that came into some gift money from my beloved mother who passed away this past summer at 93 years old. I own (for 2 years now) a Taylor 214 nylon (NO cutaway) that is really a sweet sounding guitar that is a delight to finger pick and do some easly classical work. (Anybody else find playing guitar for your wife/girlfriend can be an aphrodesiac? Sorry I digress.) I've decided to indulge my my desire for a 12-string that delivers the deep growling lowers I love but mid-ranges and trebles that are balanced and don't sound cheesy/cheapy. So my dilemma is this, I can afford with the inheritance (my wife said, "Do it. Your mom would approve.") the 858e. It is remarkable and would almost certainly please anybody who joys in 12-string guitaring. As you folks know, it has the Advanced Performance with Relief Route bracing. However, I had a hard time hearing an appreciable difference between the 858e and the 458e-R which is built with the Standard with Relief Route bracing. The tonewoods are identical (thickness difference on the 858e?). The 858e is aesthetically much the better, but the performance is not that much different to my ear. Is/should the bracing be a determining factor in what I or anybody else might hear? The $xx difference in price could be used to buy a second Taylor!!! Ugh. What should I do? 858e or 458e-R + a big chunk towards a 3rd Taylor. Life is tough, eh?
$, per forum rules
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I would do the 458 based on the time you intend to devote to the 12 string (quite a jump from a nylon 6 string). Bracing can make a difference, but it's all in the ear of the listener. If you like the sound of the 458, I'd say go for it. It's also worth trying the 12 string 12 fret models (with useful cutaway) that Taylor currently offers. They're quite comfortable and sound great to my ear anyway...have fun!
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I would do the 458 based on the time you intend to devote to the 12 string (quite a jump from a nylon 6 string). Bracing can make a difference, but it's all in the ear of the listener. If you like the sound of the 458, I'd say go for it. It's also worth trying the 12 string 12 fret models (with useful cutaway) that Taylor currently offers. They're quite comfortable and sound great to my ear anyway...have fun!
All of this times 2.
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Seems I have some breaking news. I dropped in to Gryphon Stringed Instruments this afternoon and was chatting with one of the sales guys. He told me that the X-brace pattern is going to be replaced with some sort of radial bracing pattern. It will start on the 900 and Presentation series and work it's way down to the 300. When I said that I thought Andy Powers had done that already, he stated that Andy has been working on this on his own for the last 10 years or so and now feels that it is ready to go. He got to play one yesterday when the Taylor rep brought a couple by. He stated that they just got the authorization to talk about this as of yesterday. Just when you thought you knew what was going on......
Don
Wow..yeah that is interesting since they just spent the past 4 years rolling out the performance bracing and overhauling each series.
I have a lot of respect for Andy Powers, but I must say I'm not quite as big of a fan of the newer performance bracing...particularly on the rosewood guitars. I feel like it took away that original Taylor sparkle/richness that set the company apart and replaced it with a more dry/vintage sound. So I wonder if this new radial bracing is another step in that direction, or if it's something that brings back some of that Taylor richness with the 'fullness' they were trying to bring out with the CV bracing and Performance bracing.
I do appreciate that Taylor offers such a variety. I just hope they don't completely move everything away from the original sound that set them apart.
I'm certainly going to hang on to my cedar-rosewood GA with standard II bracing! Those have become a rarity these days.
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Seems I have some breaking news. I dropped in to Gryphon Stringed Instruments this afternoon and was chatting with one of the sales guys. He told me that the X-brace pattern is going to be replaced with some sort of radial bracing pattern. It will start on the 900 and Presentation series and work it's way down to the 300. When I said that I thought Andy Powers had done that already, he stated that Andy has been working on this on his own for the last 10 years or so and now feels that it is ready to go. He got to play one yesterday when the Taylor rep brought a couple by. He stated that they just got the authorization to talk about this as of yesterday. Just when you thought you knew what was going on......
Don
Wow..yeah that is interesting since they just spent the past 4 years rolling out the performance bracing and overhauling each series.
I have a lot of respect for Andy Powers, but I must say I'm not quite as big of a fan of the newer performance bracing...particularly on the rosewood guitars. I feel like it took away that original Taylor sparkle/richness that set the company apart and replaced it with a more dry/vintage sound. So I wonder if this new radial bracing is another step in that direction, or if it's something that brings back some of that Taylor richness with the 'fullness' they were trying to bring out with the CV bracing and Performance bracing.
I do appreciate that Taylor offers such a variety. I just hope they don't completely move everything away from the original sound that set them apart.
I'm certainly going to hang on to my cedar-rosewood GA with standard II bracing! Those have become a rarity these days.
Couldn't agree more. I had a custom cedar/rosewood GA built with standard II bracing in 2015 for that very reason. Love those old Taylor cedar/rosewood GAs!
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I would do the 458 based on the time you intend to devote to the 12 string (quite a jump from a nylon 6 string). Bracing can make a difference, but it's all in the ear of the listener. If you like the sound of the 458, I'd say go for it. It's also worth trying the 12 string 12 fret models (with useful cutaway) that Taylor currently offers. They're quite comfortable and sound great to my ear anyway...have fun!
My 12-string ownership has been limited to a Guild F-512, Taylor 455 (my very first Taylor back in 2006), and my recently acquired 458. The tone and playability of the 458 are pretty amazing. Although I love the cosmetics of the 800 series, I can't imagine that the full sound of a large Taylor 12-string guitar would allow for the appreciation of the structural differences between the 458 and 858. I didn't have the opportunity to A-B the two, but I'll say that I haven't had a nanosecond's regret about this purchase...
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Having discussed this very issue, myself, with a dealer, your choice will be easier. Andy Powers invented the GO shape. He created the bracing for it the same time he did the advanced performance bracing. I’m told the bracing is exactly the same. However, the glue and the finish will be different. I don’t suspect those will make that much difference. I owned and really liked the 858e. I’m not playing a Martin 12 string because I prefer the vintage sound. I’d own both if I had the money and space and time to play them all.
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Looks like the cat is out of the bag, Taylor just posted this:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/v-class-bracing/story
And here is an article from Music Radar:
http://www.musicradar.com/news/namm-2018-taylor-flips-the-v-at-x-bracing-with-innovative-new-acoustic-design
Will have my hands on them tomorrow at NAMM.
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Reverb has an article posted too:
https://reverb.com/news/taylor-reimagines-acoustic-guitar-construction-with-new-v-brace-design
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I wonder how this will impact current sales? Will those who were planning on purchasing hold off until the series they were planning on buying gets the new bracing? Will Taylor reduce pricing on the models with the old bracing?
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The bracing is only for high end models looking like 900series and up. I'm only looking for a 414ce-r so probably won't affect me.
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Looks like the cat is out of the bag, Taylor just posted this:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/v-class-bracing/story
And here is an article from Music Radar:
http://www.musicradar.com/news/namm-2018-taylor-flips-the-v-at-x-bracing-with-innovative-new-acoustic-design
Will have my hands on them tomorrow at NAMM.
Told y’all 8)
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I wonder how this will impact current sales? Will those who were planning on purchasing hold off until the series they were planning on buying gets the new bracing? Will Taylor reduce pricing on the models with the old bracing?
And how will it impact pricing? For example, will the 800 series be roughly the same price as today's models once the new bracing is introduced into the line? Maybe the new bracing will be an upgrade option (early on) with the current bracing maintained as stock/standard build?
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Looks like the cat is out of the bag, Taylor just posted this:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/v-class-bracing/story
And here is an article from Music Radar:
http://www.musicradar.com/news/namm-2018-taylor-flips-the-v-at-x-bracing-with-innovative-new-acoustic-design
Will have my hands on them tomorrow at NAMM.
Told y’all 8)
Let us know your thoughts and perceptions if u get ahold of one Ted!
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Can't imagine the new bracing will be restricted to the high end models only. And wonder if other parameters such as top thicknesses will be modified because of the bracing change.
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Andy Powers has said the new bracing will be introduced through out the line of GAs this year.
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Looks like the cat is out of the bag, Taylor just posted this:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/v-class-bracing/story
And here is an article from Music Radar:
http://www.musicradar.com/news/namm-2018-taylor-flips-the-v-at-x-bracing-with-innovative-new-acoustic-design
Will have my hands on them tomorrow at NAMM.
When do you anticipate having the new V-braced models in stock or available for order, Ted????
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Actually, with regards to new sales, I got wind of something back in October when I was about to order a custom Koa grand symphony and put off that purchase waiting to hear. Thankfully, the holidays came and stalled my purchase. Now there is an event next week at my local dealer to see these new guitars. Might have just saved me a few bucks. If the K14ce sounds good, it could just take the customs place instead
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In the marketing hype Taylor is presenting for the V bracing, Andy Powers touts better sustain and more overtones in terms of the tonal improvement the V-bracing offers. Some acoustic music may not benefit from that so I would think it will be very important to play before buying early on. Once there are a number of V braced Taylors out there, the acoustic guitar forums will be filled with opinions on if it is better (its full on at the AGF right now!). I do like the improved intonation benefit if it is accurate.
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In the marketing hype Taylor is presenting for the V bracing, Andy Powers touts better sustain and more overtones in terms of the tonal improvement the V-bracing offers. Some acoustic music may not benefit from that...
I was thinking the same thing about whether "too much" sustain could negatively impact some types of playing.
But the new models look awesome and I can't wait to try one some day.
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Looks like the cat is out of the bag, Taylor just posted this:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/v-class-bracing/story
And here is an article from Music Radar:
http://www.musicradar.com/news/namm-2018-taylor-flips-the-v-at-x-bracing-with-innovative-new-acoustic-design
Will have my hands on them tomorrow at NAMM.
Told y’all 8)
Let us know your thoughts and perceptions if u get ahold of one Ted!
Helene and I had some time with the new models featuring the V-Class bracing at NAMM, and although tonal testing at NAMM is quite limited, I think most folks will be well pleased. I'll know more once the new models arrive, and I have a chance to a/b them alongside the previous versions in our showroom.
Randy, Taylor is planning to ship the four new models to dealers in the coming weeks. These will be the K24ce, 914ce, PS14ce, and the super cool, fully beveled Builders Edition K14ce.
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Thanks Ted! I was told by my local dealer they would be getting something w/ V Bracing in the 800 series soon....maybe misinformation we'll see.
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Quasi-manifesto alert, and all IMHO:
1. When the Grand Orch model came out: I was excited (though bummed about the demise of the Jumbo), and looked forward to it, even ready to buy, which is rare for me, but the GO-concept was too cool! Tried all 4 models, for well over an hour in a good room ..."good" but not great. And now today, I am even less impressed with the GO guitars as opposed to an otherwise stellar line of Taylors.
2. Revoiced 800s came out. Cool, I thought: this is their flagship and they're gonna kill it! Well some loved it, others ended up lukewarm; I found it just "meh." I do, however, think the 600 maple guitars benefitted quite well from the "800-revoicing," more so than did the 800s.
3. ES-2 came out. I love the ES version 1.3 (model year 2010ff.). So feeling the 1.3 was at the pinnacle of the ES development, I was jazzed to see another incarnation as each was better than its predecessor. Utter disappointment. Tried other guitars and definitely not enamored with this system. This recent ES2 (2016) is better than the opening version, though. Sure it's "good," and totally usable, but not at all what I consider to be an upgrade over the ES1.3
Again, all the aforementioned clearly IMHO and wrought with my own biases. But I always went in hoping for the best for this company that I continually have the utmost regard for, but likewise always maintain critical objectivity whenever judging tone. So the chips always fall where they do for me, however it ends up.
All to say I really do hope this V-bracing is what they claim to be ...but therein lays the problem: Taylor claimed a lot! The claim more than they did with the GO body, the Revoicing, the ES2; this "biggest" of all changes has been "heavily sold" in marketing terms, which if they fail to deliver (and I respectfully believe these three examples failed to fully deliver), they expend the precious cache of respect and diminish the brand in the long run. Hyperbole in the marketplace is rampant. And because we see it, we respect those who don't employ it. Here's to hoping Taylor delivers, and delivers big! :)
Edward
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Quasi-manifesto alert, and all IMHO:
1. When the Grand Orch model came out: I was excited (though bummed about the demise of the Jumbo), and looked forward to it, even ready to buy, which is rare for me, but the GO-concept was too cool! Tried all 4 models, for well over an hour in a good room ..."good" but not great. And now today, I am even less impressed with the GO guitars as opposed to an otherwise stellar line of Taylors.
2. Revoiced 800s came out. Cool, I thought: this is their flagship and they're gonna kill it! Well some loved it, others ended up lukewarm; I found it just "meh." I do, however, think the 600 maple guitars benefitted quite well from the "800-revoicing," more so than did the 800s.
3. ES-2 came out. I love the ES version 1.3 (model year 2010ff.). So feeling the 1.3 was at the pinnacle of the ES development, I was jazzed to see another incarnation as each was better than its predecessor. Utter disappointment. Tried other guitars and definitely not enamored with this system. This recent ES2 (2016) is better than the opening version, though. Sure it's "good," and totally usable, but not at all what I consider to be an upgrade over the ES1.3
Again, all the aforementioned clearly IMHO and wrought with my own biases. But I always went in hoping for the best for this company that I continually have the utmost regard for, but likewise always maintain critical objectivity whenever judging tone. So the chips always fall where they do for me, however it ends up.
All to say I really do hope this V-bracing is what they claim to be ...but therein lays the problem: Taylor claimed a lot! The claim more than they did with the GO body, the Revoicing, the ES2; this "biggest" of all changes has been "heavily sold" in marketing terms, which if they fail to deliver (and I respectfully believe these three examples failed to fully deliver), they expend the precious cache of respect and diminish the brand in the long run. Hyperbole in the marketplace is rampant. And because we see it, we respect those who don't employ it. Here's to hoping Taylor delivers, and delivers big! :)
Edward
A very sober minded eloquent synopsis Edward..it wont be long til we have our hands on them.....I'm going to call it a "situation" and not a "problem" until playing it tells me otherwise
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Quasi-manifesto alert, and all IMHO:
1. When the Grand Orch model came out: I was excited (though bummed about the demise of the Jumbo), and looked forward to it, even ready to buy, which is rare for me, but the GO-concept was too cool! Tried all 4 models, for well over an hour in a good room ..."good" but not great. And now today, I am even less impressed with the GO guitars as opposed to an otherwise stellar line of Taylors.
2. Revoiced 800s came out. Cool, I thought: this is their flagship and they're gonna kill it! Well some loved it, others ended up lukewarm; I found it just "meh." I do, however, think the 600 maple guitars benefitted quite well from the "800-revoicing," more so than did the 800s.
3. ES-2 came out. I love the ES version 1.3 (model year 2010ff.). So feeling the 1.3 was at the pinnacle of the ES development, I was jazzed to see another incarnation as each was better than its predecessor. Utter disappointment. Tried other guitars and definitely not enamored with this system. This recent ES2 (2016) is better than the opening version, though. Sure it's "good," and totally usable, but not at all what I consider to be an upgrade over the ES1.3
Again, all the aforementioned clearly IMHO and wrought with my own biases. But I always went in hoping for the best for this company that I continually have the utmost regard for, but likewise always maintain critical objectivity whenever judging tone. So the chips always fall where they do for me, however it ends up.
All to say I really do hope this V-bracing is what they claim to be ...but therein lays the problem: Taylor claimed a lot! The claim more than they did with the GO body, the Revoicing, the ES2; this "biggest" of all changes has been "heavily sold" in marketing terms, which if they fail to deliver (and I respectfully believe these three examples failed to fully deliver), they expend the precious cache of respect and diminish the brand in the long run. Hyperbole in the marketplace is rampant. And because we see it, we respect those who don't employ it. Here's to hoping Taylor delivers, and delivers big! :)
Edward
Edward, you spoke well. FWIW, I agree with you on all counts. I still believe that the GA, the GS mini, the NT neck and the ES1.3 are the true Taylor game changers for me. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I'm still drawn to the Taylor signature sound I came to know in the 90s. Prior bracing changes (CV, AP) have been okay with me, but not better than older Taylors - just different. I have a deep-seated concern that Taylor's (Andy's) newer guitars will lose some of the personality of their original attraction for me (sparkle and balance), and become similar to other more traditional builders' guitars. That would really be a shame if it were to happen. But I too will keep an open mind and give the new bracing a fair test drive.
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Quasi-manifesto alert, and all IMHO:
1. When the Grand Orch model came out: I was excited (though bummed about the demise of the Jumbo), and looked forward to it, even ready to buy, which is rare for me, but the GO-concept was too cool! Tried all 4 models, for well over an hour in a good room ..."good" but not great. And now today, I am even less impressed with the GO guitars as opposed to an otherwise stellar line of Taylors.
2. Revoiced 800s came out. Cool, I thought: this is their flagship and they're gonna kill it! Well some loved it, others ended up lukewarm; I found it just "meh." I do, however, think the 600 maple guitars benefitted quite well from the "800-revoicing," more so than did the 800s.
3. ES-2 came out. I love the ES version 1.3 (model year 2010ff.). So feeling the 1.3 was at the pinnacle of the ES development, I was jazzed to see another incarnation as each was better than its predecessor. Utter disappointment. Tried other guitars and definitely not enamored with this system. This recent ES2 (2016) is better than the opening version, though. Sure it's "good," and totally usable, but not at all what I consider to be an upgrade over the ES1.3
Again, all the aforementioned clearly IMHO and wrought with my own biases. But I always went in hoping for the best for this company that I continually have the utmost regard for, but likewise always maintain critical objectivity whenever judging tone. So the chips always fall where they do for me, however it ends up.
All to say I really do hope this V-bracing is what they claim to be ...but therein lays the problem: Taylor claimed a lot! The claim more than they did with the GO body, the Revoicing, the ES2; this "biggest" of all changes has been "heavily sold" in marketing terms, which if they fail to deliver (and I respectfully believe these three examples failed to fully deliver), they expend the precious cache of respect and diminish the brand in the long run. Hyperbole in the marketplace is rampant. And because we see it, we respect those who don't employ it. Here's to hoping Taylor delivers, and delivers big! :)
Edward
Edward, you spoke well. FWIW, I agree with you on all counts. I still believe that the GA, the GS mini, the NT neck and the ES1.3 are the true Taylor game changers for me. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I'm still drawn to the Taylor signature sound I came to know in the 90s. Prior bracing changes (CV, AP) have been okay with me, but not better than older Taylors - just different. I have a deep-seated concern that Taylor's (Andy's) newer guitars will lose some of the personality of their original attraction for me (sparkle and balance), and become similar to other more traditional builders' guitars. That would really be a shame if it were to happen. But I too will keep an open mind and give the new bracing a fair test drive.
I guess I'm in the same boat as you guys: quietly wondering whether all of the marketing hype will be justified...
I've never been blown away by the six-string GO's. The 12-string GO's have been better in my opinion, but I still seem to gravitate more to the GS 12-strings on the whole. I've never been "wowed" by the new bracing in any of its incarnations. And I almost never make use of the ES in any of it's forms, so I can't even really speak to the relative merits of ES1.3 vs. ES2.
So "V" bracing...? I'll just wait and see -- or rather hear -- for myself...
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I will say that overall, I've been impressed by the way this community has responded to the V bracing news. Other places have been pretty hostile.
I'd just love to try one in person and listen for myself. ;D
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I will say that overall, I've been impressed by the way this community has responded to the V bracing news. Other places have been pretty hostile.
I'd just love to try one in person and listen for myself. ;D
Put some headphones on and listen to this, best video yet, I think. Seriously, don’t bother with crap internal speakers.
https://youtu.be/KNpwOq_AT30 (https://youtu.be/KNpwOq_AT30)
The two guitars at the end? There is a difference, and I don’t need to be there to hear it. Do you? I confess this is the first video (of 10?) where I thought, ok, I can start to understand the excitement.
For grins, I started playing high G high fret single notes on my 814ce DLX 1st Edition. I'd pluck a single note, then immediately dampen it. There was a lot of sympathetic, audible vibration going on the other strings. Interesting. Maybe this is the disharmony they're referring to, caused by the "chaos" of the X brace design. I'm guessing there's a lot less of that with this V bracing, or what is going on is more in harmony.
At least I'm now interested in hearing it in person.
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Thanks Ted! I was told by my local dealer they would be getting something w/ V Bracing in the 800 series soon....maybe misinformation we'll see.
My pleasure, TLAW. As to V bracing on 800 series guitars, there has been no official announcement as far as I know.
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My current guitars move me now.
Once these new guitars hit the market in full force, I'll evaluate if they move me enough to change current inventory. I seriously doubt the PS56ce is going anywhere.
To add to Edward's excellent post, the 800 series revoicing did not impress me to the point that I needed to sell my 2013 816ce...
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....I still believe that the GA, the GS mini, the NT neck and the ES1.3 are the true Taylor game changers for me....
And for me, as well ...gee, it's true that great minds think alike ;)
The GA body came in and changed everything ...decades later we know this to be undeniably true. Likewise, the NT was indisputably a game changer for the entire guitar-making industry. The ES1.3 was another improvement in the breed of electronic amplification. And I totally forgot about the GSmini, yikes what a fabulous guitar! This filled a niche that no one even knew existed ...maybe better to say that it created a niche.
Taylor is no slouch at innovation, to be sure. And like any bold thinker, Bob and friends take risks where some don't pan out as expected or hoped (I still secretly wish RT existed, but whatever, I'll be ok ;) ). And I have nothing but admiration for this courage to step out with "new think" instead of the marketplace's continual "old-think" rehashed, yet rebranded as breakthrough.
So yes, I am very much hoping for the best with the V-bracing. I just wished they didn't "sell it" so hard and let the innovation sell itself. It was their innovation and quality that propelled them and made Taylor the force that it is. So resorting to cheese-marketing-101 is --for me-- a let down for a company that thrived on delivering substance and ultimately let the success do the talking.
I can't find the "beer" emoticon, but here's my toast to Taylor and hope for success on this one! :D
Edward
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With all due respect, Edward, I think referring to Taylor's enthusiasm about V-bracing hardly constitutes "cheese-marketing." If they think the innovation is a game changer, then they're right (and smart) to say so. Where I completely agree with you is that V-bracing had better live up to their excitement, or they will lose a certain amount of credibility.
For what it's worth, I spoke to the manager of my local store. He was at NAMM, and he was blown away by what he heard from the guitars -- even though he was hearing them in a noisy room and even though he's a Martin guy. He was very excited by the prospect of getting these guitars into his store so that he could hear them in a better environment.
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Fair enough, Dennis! If they do consider it a game changer, I will take them for their word that they believe it. :)
Edward
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Fascinating discussion. Thanks, all!
And thanks to Guitarsan for posting that YouTube link. That video had the best explanation of the V bracing that I've heard, and the demos were helpful. There's another video of various Taylor artists demoing the new guitars, and this was also useful. Based on these, it seems to me that V braced guitars would benefit players who play a lot up the neck past the fifth or seventh fret, especially lead runs.
I'm a little surprised that the response on this forum and others is mostly negative or at best very skeptical, even before anyone (besides Ted) has played a sample guitar. Why not give Taylor the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing where their guitars are concerned? For example, I think it's telling that all the guitars with V bracing are GAs, and don't include other models. This tells me that V bracing hasn't been tuned for other models and isn't ready to roll out.
Looking ahead, I can see that this will probably become like the debates over Tonerite and torrefied tops: some will hear dramatic differences and really love them, and others won't be impressed at all.
For me it's a total non issue until the change makes it down to the lower-end series, and I"m not even tempted to do a demo. I mean, the PS guitars retail for around $xx, and for that kind of money I'd be shopping for a Goodall or Froggy.
I don't want to derail this topic, but someone eluded to something that made me think. There's no question that the classic Taylor sound has changed in recent years, but is that a good thing? Martin is going in a similar direction with their revoiced D18, D28 and Authentics, and the result is certainly a different sound. But is it better? For those old enough to remember, is this possibly another New Coke situation?
For now, I'm good as long as Taylor doesn't start messing with the neck and action. Playability has been Taylor's bread and butter for years, and if they start trying to "improve" it, count me out. ("NEW beefier neck for players who like more to hold onto! Super wide neck for even more room for fingerpickers!")
Cheers.
$, per forum rules
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^^^Good thoughts, sir.
FWIW, if my comments may have come off as negative or skeptical, it was not my intention; and if so it's because I've inexpertly phrased it as such. This is why I hope for the best for this bracing change. That regardless of how I ultimately feel, that the change is embraced in a big way by the marketplace ...not by cork-sniffing guitarists, but by the masses who "validate' change with their wallets. Witness the aforementioned successes like the GA, GSm, ES, etc.. None needed hyperbolic (yes, my opinion here) ad-copy salesmanship as the results yielded instruments customers flat-out wanted, and did so in a big way with sales volume, and this over years. Not a bad trick ;)
I see not just my own sentiments here, but that of others too, are borne not of "skepticism" but more of "critical analysis" based not just on Taylor's own claim, but on what they have, in fact, produced in the past. As I had said, some were groundbreaking changes, others not --arguably, "flops" as the market has responded with its vote. So if the company --one as much as I admire and an industry leader in so many ways-- have claimed "x" and delivered less than "x" well guess what, I have grounds for valid criticism the next time a claim comes around. This, I believe, is fair, and not negative; nor does it diminish whatever they have already --in fact-- accomplished. Moreover, upon that next claim, I reserve the right to be bowled over and want to buy it if it does, in fact, pan out to be as they had promised. I'm just calling em as I see em, that's all.
Further, I don't espouse the "traditionalist" view of a Taylor voice of this and that: I like or don't like what a guitar --any guitar-- brings or fails to bring. Most certainly, a brand has its own signature tone with Taylor, Martin, et.al. clearly carving their own place in gearland. So yes, I am a markedly clear Taylor Fanboy for many reasons: key is tone and playability, but its not because of any "traditional Taylor" tone as all my Taylors sound different ...which is why they are keepers. That said, the revoicing of the 800 series didn't "bother" me in any way. It wasn't to my liking, but that's cool since many others love/prefer it ...even brought those "non-T" folks over. Again, not a bad trick! What would bother me, however, is if Taylor replaced entirely their previous voicing because they felt this new coke ;) were superior ...yeah, that'd be bad for the brand.
So yet again, I hope the V-bracing does the factory very well, and may indeed sway me. But with equal vigor, I hope the flavors that already are enjoyed by a great many do not succumb to the great "new and improved" mantra that seems to pervade all too many makers. I am waiting, somewhat now less eager than before the unveiling because of how they marketed this roll-out, but still eager nevertheless ...albeit with a critical eye and ears wide open, as always. :)
Edward
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While the V-bracing may have more sustain or fullness or a better sound acoustically, I doubt it will be worth upgrading for people like me playing in noisy bars. Typically when plugged in, my audience cannot tell the difference between a solid wood Taylor and my 214. What I would like to see them change drastically is the ES2 system starting with the pre-amp and getting it to sound more balanced without compression pedals. Seems like it's too hot or not hot enough depending on the pre-amp. For me, this has been a long time frustration that eventually made my main gigging instrument another brand other than Taylor. I still bring the 214 with me on a few of those quieter gigs but I am looking for a major change in electronics before I buy another Taylor. But I am sure the new V brace will have some people lined up to buy new models. I think its a great sales gimmick but I am looking for something that will actually help what I don't like in Taylors, and for me, the bracing was not the issue. Just my 2 cents.
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PIREP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_report) I got from Joe & Todd at Empire Music on the new "V" bracing, which they had the opportunity to sample out at NAMM: Unlike the "revoicing" done to the 800 Series (et al.), the "V" bracing is not intended to affect overall tone so much as refine some of the shortcomings inherent to soundboards braced with traditional "X" bracing. Chords and notes played on a "V-braced" guitar should have better sustain; and anything played up on the neck will be in better tune (no note "warbling"). At least those seem to be the major claims Taylor is making.
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PIREP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_report) I got from Joe & Todd at Empire Music on the new "V" bracing, which they had the opportunity to sample out at NAMM: Unlike the "revoicing" done to the 800 Series (et al.), the "V" bracing is not intended to affect overall tone so much as refine some of the shortcomings inherent to soundboards braced with traditional "X" bracing. Chords and notes played on a "V-braced" guitar should have better sustain; and anything played up on the neck will be in better tune (no note "warbling"). At least those seem to be the major claims Taylor is making.
Makes me wonder. If V-bracing isn't intended to affect overall tone very much (tone being the primary reason we buy a particular guitar), then why is Taylor making such a big deal about it? Seems to me there was a lot less hoopla over the revoicing, which affected their guitars in a very major way.
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PIREP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_report) I got from Joe & Todd at Empire Music on the new "V" bracing, which they had the opportunity to sample out at NAMM: Unlike the "revoicing" done to the 800 Series (et al.), the "V" bracing is not intended to affect overall tone so much as refine some of the shortcomings inherent to soundboards braced with traditional "X" bracing. Chords and notes played on a "V-braced" guitar should have better sustain; and anything played up on the neck will be in better tune (no note "warbling"). At least those seem to be the major claims Taylor is making.
Makes me wonder. If V-bracing isn't intended to affect overall tone very much (tone being the primary reason we buy a particular guitar), then why is Taylor making such a big deal about it? Seems to me there was a lot less hoopla over the revoicing, which affected their guitars in a very major way.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. While the "V" bracing seems, on the surface, to be little more than a tweak, the way it was described to me by Todd at Empire was that it addresses sublte-but-persistent things that have apparently niggled at acoustic guitar musicians for a long time -- specifically the way notes played high on the neck seem to 'warble' slightly out of tune. I get the impression that the increased sustain was just a fortuitous bonus in much the same way that (to draw on an aviation reference) the drag on the F4U (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair) was reduced by use of the inverted gull wings, even though the main goal of the wing design in this case was to simply avoid long, spindly landing gear while providing adequate propeller clearance...
Perhaps it's not accurate to say it does not affect tone (those were my words, not Joe or Todd's); but rather that it provides tonal enhancement through the correction of some of the shortcomings inherent to "X" bracing. Anyway, both Joe and Todd did seem to think "V" bracing was less hype and more substance; both claimed they could hear the improvement even in the noisy room where the guitars were being displayed. Ultimately, it might just be something that defies explanation until one hears it for themselves...?
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PIREP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_report) I got from Joe & Todd at Empire Music on the new "V" bracing, which they had the opportunity to sample out at NAMM: Unlike the "revoicing" done to the 800 Series (et al.), the "V" bracing is not intended to affect overall tone so much as refine some of the shortcomings inherent to soundboards braced with traditional "X" bracing. Chords and notes played on a "V-braced" guitar should have better sustain; and anything played up on the neck will be in better tune (no note "warbling"). At least those seem to be the major claims Taylor is making.
So I've been thinking about all this. (Watch out) 8)
Andy has been clear - his design goal all along was "how do you make a top that is both flexible and stiff?" With the potential corresponding benefit being "increase stiffness, increase sustain" and "increase flexibility, increase volume and projection". So he set about to solve that problem. I'm guessing when he started prototyping his new bracing, he happened to notice "as a byproduct" the guitar also intonated better, then he figured out the why - the soundboard's vibration was more orderly and fundamental. So, maybe not completely, but I'm guessing the intonation was a pleasant surprise. And one that had a benefit for some situations, nevertheless. With all the background and stories, that seems the most plausible scenario.
Now, on to those benefits. I've never questioned my Taylor guitar's intonation, volume, or sustain. Heck, all of my Taylors sustain as much or more than I'll ever need. But for someone playing chords up high (when I play up high, it's typically individual notes) or for someone who sings, I get the potential benefit.
So, I'm not at all tempted by any of this. When I get a chance to try one I will, but I'm in no rush on that.
Last, I do agree with the majority sentiment, Taylor jumped the shark with this announcement.
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I am fairly new to Taylor as a owner. I was never a Taylor fan. However I really appreciated the 12 string instruments, but not enough to purchase one.
But this Andy Powers really changed them for me. The GO was my favorite Jumbo in the search of a new 12 string. So I bought the 458e-R. Bought it mid last year and still loving it. This guitar sparked my interest in Taylor and the re-voiced etc 800 series caught my interest.
Fell in love with the 856ce and ordered one last fall, but without the ES-2 system. There are way better PU systems for acoustics on the market.
Andy Powers seems to really change things at Taylor and I am looking forward to check out one of these new V-bracing guitars. If it's that good and it works for 12 string as well, I would be intrigued to purchase another Taylor.
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Andy Powers seems to really change things at Taylor and I am looking forward to check out one of these new V-bracing guitars. If it's that good and it works for 12 string as well, I would be intrigued to purchase another Taylor.
I am also interested in how the new V bracing will effect other Taylor sizes and set ups. Such as, will it work for the 12th fret models? will it work on the 562 12th-fret 12 string? Is it enough bracing for a 12 string? I am sure that the R&D department are working on it.
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i’m definitely excited to try this, i think it sounds fantastic in all of the videos i have seen. i’m also intrigued by the ergonomic design of the builders reserve
i completely get what taylor is saying - if intonation is better the notes all sound pure, much like how i feel when playing my lutz/cocobolo - the note accuracy is so good and it makes it so easy to sing along with and just has this purity to it.
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It sounds like the V bracing may be a real improvement, probably not for playing in a noisy bar, but for recording or playing in quiet unplugged settings. While I doubt it will cause me to want to sell my current Taylor’s for models with V bracing, I like the concept and the improvements in intonation and sustain could make for a fun instrument to explore. I like what they did with the builders reserve and hope that eventually this will work its way down to the GC level in 800 or below.
Looking forward to getting to play one in person, although not rushing out to find them. I am also looking forward to reading impressions on the forum when others find and try them.
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I think this will turn out like many other sonic innovations. The true "golden ears" will hear the difference. That's maybe 5% of the guitar playing population. The golden ear wannabes will claim to hear a difference but what they hear is biased by their expectations. The rest of us will say, gee, that's a great sounding guitar, a comment we've made about dozens of other great sounding guitars. Time will tell.
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I think this will turn out like many other sonic innovations. The true "golden ears" will hear the difference. That's maybe 5% of the guitar playing population. The golden ear wannabes will claim to hear a difference but what they hear is biased by their expectations. The rest of us will say, gee, that's a great sounding guitar, a comment we've made about dozens of other great sounding guitars. Time will tell.
So, those of us who hear a difference are actually fooling ourselves? Thank you for your insight into my character.
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So, those of us who hear a difference are actually fooling ourselves? Thank you for your insight into my character.
Not what I said sir. Have a great day!
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So, those of us who hear a difference are actually fooling ourselves? Thank you for your insight into my character.
Not what I said sir. Have a great day!
"The golden ear wannabes will claim to hear a difference but what they hear is biased by their expectations."
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So, those of us who hear a difference are actually fooling ourselves? Thank you for your insight into my character.
Not what I said sir. Have a great day!
"The golden ear wannabes will claim to hear a difference but what they hear is biased by their expectations."
i think lmacmil was just trying to say tone is subjective, some who have trained ears (like audio engineers) will be able to tell, some people will hear with their eyes, and some will just think it sounds good
he even clarified that he wasn’t making a comment towards DennisG, but just a generic one.
let’s get back to the topic and DennisG provided good feedback on what he has heard.
if i’m wrong and his post was malicious, i’ll correct it by removing it. in this instance i think it was just misintepretated bc there is no emotion translated with electronic text.