Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
The Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: DMBfan41 on December 11, 2011, 06:41:07 PM
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Genuinely seeking understanding here and not throwing stones.
Why is guitar price discussion so taboo on certain boards?
I've frequented several boards where it's allowed and those that are against it. I guess I don't understand how it's harmful.
I fully understand the concept of the MAP retailers must follow and I know we all understand new and used pricing structures differ outside of established retail (ebay, craigslist, etc.).
Thanks in advance for aiding in my understanding here :).
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For one, it helps to reduce feelings of being taken by a dealer. When I buy a guitar for $1,500 and the next day I see you post the same guitar that you bought new for $1,200, I feel like my sales person took advantage of me. Sounds silly, but it happens. Though there are many factors that determine how much we pay for a guitar, emotionally it may be hard to rationalize the difference in price. It helps keep relationships on good terms. There are many other reasons as well, but that is one. Who has another example?
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for me, it's all about if a person finds a great deal on something & that becomes the topic of discussion -
not the product, what it does, how well it works, who makes it, where it's made, what it's made of out of, etc
purely about price & where it was obtained -
whether it be a guitar, amp, case, tuners, strings, capos, straps, cables, etc
it is great when one finds a 'deal-of-the-day' or a 'black Friday' deal, but if a 'retailer' is blowing out a product
at or below cost (perhaps last year's model or they are no longer going to be a dealer), there is no way that a
'mom & pop' or perhaps even any of the dealers represented here can compete with that on a regular basis
even these incidental 'consumables' (strings, picks, polishes, etc), independent
local 'mom & pop' stores depend on selling these on a regular/daily basis -
they may not sell a new guitar or amp everyday & there are amps & effects
processors that are as much as, if not more, the price of certain guitars
i've seen discussions to where it has come down to shipping cost, never mind sales tax &
to be honest, where i've seen pricing discussion allowed, it ended with a littering of price threads -
again not about the product or the service received from the place of purchase, just the price
that is why i made the suggestion/request to please refrain from open pricing discussions -
a PM or a link can convey the information just as well, without a multipage thread (imho)
also, with there being a good bit of variance in acoustic guitars, even Taylors, the one that is ordered with free shipping &
no sales tax may or may not sound/play the same as the one hanging in the store - it may be 'better' or it may not
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I asked the very same question on another forum about six years ago and got the answer below from one their moderators:
"It's a good question, Ted, one that we probably ought to revisit periodically. The owner of this forum, has felt strongly about this from the very beginning.... Some people haven't liked it, but since it's [his] house, he gets to set the rules.
Here's what he established as our Rule #2...
NO GUITAR PRICING DISCUSSIONS: I respectfully ask that you keep guitar pricing discussions offline. I think pricing discussions in the public forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers. When someone posts that they bought a guitar for from dealer XXXXX XXXXX, that suddenly sets the price for a lot of other dealers to have to match to stay competitive. It doesn't matter if the more expensive dealer offers better service or value-adds, has a nicer display room where the instruments are better cared for, etc. If "YYYYY Guitars" is selling the same guitar for less money, many people are going to buy it. Now if you were the guy that just got great service buying your first Taylor guitar from your local dealer, you're so excited, you come online to see what other people are saying about this guitar and you find out that someone else just paid a few hundred less for the same model, how are you gonna feel?"
I simply can't put it any better than that.
BTW, that forum got too busy to enforce this rule so they dropped it, but I strongly feel the no pricing rule is one of the main reasons they became so busy in the first place.
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Genuinely seeking understanding here and not throwing stones.
Why is guitar price discussion so taboo on certain boards?
I've frequented several boards where it's allowed and those that are against it. I guess I don't understand how it's harmful.
I guess I have to weight my words on this, given how much frustration (dare I say anger?) this issue caused on the other forum... First when it was not allowed, then when the rule was lifted.
Also, I respect the creator of this forum's right to choose whatever he feel is right for his forum.
Personally, however, I do not understand why it should be a problem. I think information is a good thing. I don't think we are protecting anybody, dealers or customers, by not discussing it. Certainly not customers. I have never seen any forum being flooded with pricing request either, even though this is often a concern for those advocating not allowing such posts.
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I am only a guest here and consider myself fortunate to be a part of a great place to discuss something we all enjoy. I always attempt to abide by the Rules established by the owner(s), whether here or at another Forum.
Before I bought my 814, the rule at another Forum was to not allow public pricing. I respected that and did what others had done in the past. I simply asked if anyone could help point me in a direction to learn more about the instrument I was seeking and where I might be able to purchase it. I received several off-line communications and I really appreciated it (lots of great help from great people). The only problem was that there were several dealers that were highly suggested, all of which had basically the same pricing. That made it difficult to decide who to contact. It was like a coin toss at that time. We currently have some of those people here, both buyers and sellers. Good people stick together I believe and they all pop up here and there. I guess I'd say it is like family.
Back to where I was going.... I'd say there are times that someone goes out and buys a nice instrument of whatever brand locally and they are excited beyond words. Then they begin to use the power of the internet looking for discussion groups and when they discover the open pricing, their bubble is burst to an extent. As stated previously, one's feelings could be hurt and I doubt any of us want to see that. If someone locates a great discussion group like this one and seeks private information, I do not see anything wrong with that. After all, that is the way I located my 814 and once again, I appreciated all of the contacts given to me. Oh, after my purchase is when things became public elsewhere.
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It seems where pricing can be discussed, you see threads that start becoming about the "deal" and not about the instrument itself. I have had my share of "good deals" and I've had a few good deals that by the time I made the necessary repairs wasn't a deal at all. :(
PM's between members will help those who need info and not drag down everyone else.
Terry
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I would prefer that there be no public discussions of price. It's easy enough to ask other members for their private opinions. Hopefully moderating this rule is not too much of a burden.
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Thanks to everyone for offering up perspectives. A lot of these make sense I guess.
When I was shopping around for my very first Taylor, I remember wanting to seek out advice about particular models on 3 different forums. 2 of these had "no price" rules while the 3rd didn't care. Kinda ironic because the first 2 mentioned seemed to be Taylor heavy, I resorted to asking indirectly via PMs with folks I traded posts with. The third one, no rules, maybe had 10 people out of a 1000 that could even spell Taylor.
I'm a firm believer that prices plays an integral part in any product consideration. Absent of open dialogue in all areas, it can be frustrating to newer people seeking advice about a product. But again, many of what was said above has merit. Best advice I can give when price discussion isn't an option is do your own research. Take the manufacturer MAP, eBay completed listings, regional Craigslist listings, etc., and bounce that against what you are willing to shell out. In the end I think value is purely subjective.
Again, thanks for helping make it a little more clear. I wasn't sure how my question was going to be received. You guys are OK I suppose.
Stay tuned for my next topic: Why do Mormons ride bicycles? ;D
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there is a difference, imho -
another forum lifted a rule about 6 months ago, if i recall correctly, so by having it here, it is different
just a case in point, if i may -
when i purchased my 614ce new in 02, i paid nearly 4% more then for it than the same shop was
selling them for new in 04, even though there was a list price increase of over 10% on the 04 models
the shop needed to be more aggressive in their pricing to be more competitive with the big box
store that had opened up about 10 miles down the road, due to their 'lowest price guarantee' -
at the price, the big box store could not match it, due to their built-in 'overhead' without taking a loss
when i was considering making an investment of that size, there was certainly more to it than just sound & price -
playability, feel, aesthetics, electronics, build process/quality & customer service both from the production brand
i was purchasing & the dealer i was purchasing from meant a great deal to me (service before, during & after the sale)
all these factors i consider to be 'overall value', which may be of more importance to some more than others
i guess my take on it is - play what you like, buy what you love & spend your $ where you feel most comfortable
ymmv
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I've seen the benefits of both allowing guitar price discussion, and disallowing it. If it were my forum, I would disallow it. No, not to protect dealers, but so that the discussion would better focus on the guitars we love, rather than our finding the absolute lowest price.
Though Taylors are probably the most consistent guitars I know, there can definitely be differences between different examples of the same model. I've known more than one person to go to a local dealer, fall in love with a certain Taylor, then go home and shop online for the same model at the best possible price. Makes sense, sometimes, but not always. I've known at least a couple of these folks who were somewhat disappointed by their lowest price version of the guitar they liked so much locally. Same builder, same model, but there can be differences, even with Taylors.
Does that happen often? No, probably not, not with Taylors. But think about it for a moment. If we all focus on little else than the lowest price, within a relatively short time all but a small handful of large online dealers would evaporate.
Don't get me wrong. I'm very glad we have some very fine online dealers who do a tremendous job at delivering their Taylors at low prices! But then I don't want to lose our local dealers, either. I really think that a forum that doesn't focus on guitar prices is more enjoyable, though I totally understand why one might change their policy when they outgrew their ability to enforce it gently.
cotten
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I've spent several days now reading the posts in this thread with great interest. I understand and appreciate the arguments both for and against allowing discussions of price, and I have sympathy for the dealers who are affected.
Still, my personal preference would be to allow price discussions. I've seen both systems applied to AGF over the years, and allowing these discussions seems to do no more harm than to provide one additional data point -- among many -- that consumers can use before making a purchase. The fact that someone COULD use the information unwisely or immaturely hardly seems like a reason to deny everyone the information. If we're going to deny information solely on the basis of whether or not it's possible to abuse it, then price belongs on a long list of potentially forbidden topics.
Having said that, I'd like to propose a compromise: that allowing price discussions should be contextual. And the context for it should exclude what specific dealers are charging. Iif, for example, someone comes on this forum and asks how much an 814ce is likely to cost, I don't see the harm in saying that I purchased mine for $2850, if that's what I paid for it. Or someone else might offer that he's seen it anywhere from $2700 to $3200.
What's the harm in that? I haven't mentioned a dealer. No specific price has been assigned to a specific retailer. If someone wants to know where I paid $2850, I'd tell him to PM me. In my mind, the compromise (between banning all discussions of price and allowing all discussions) is to put the discussions in a generic context. We should be allowed to discuss guitar prices, but not bring specific dealers into it.
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I've seen the benefits of both allowing guitar price discussion, and disallowing it. If it were my forum, I would disallow it. No, not to protect dealers, but so that the discussion would better focus on the guitars we love, rather than our finding the absolute lowest price.
Though Taylors are probably the most consistent guitars I know, there can definitely be differences between different examples of the same model. I've known more than one person to go to a local dealer, fall in love with a certain Taylor, then go home and shop online for the same model at the best possible price. Makes sense, sometimes, but not always. I've known at least a couple of these folks who were somewhat disappointed by their lowest price version of the guitar they liked so much locally. Same builder, same model, but there can be differences, even with Taylors.
Does that happen often? No, probably not, not with Taylors. But think about it for a moment. If we all focus on little else than the lowest price, within a relatively short time all but a small handful of large online dealers would evaporate.
Don't get me wrong. I'm very glad we have some very fine online dealers who do a tremendous job at delivering their Taylors at low prices! But then I don't want to lose our local dealers, either. I really think that a forum that doesn't focus on guitar prices is more enjoyable, though I totally understand why one might change their policy when they outgrew their ability to enforce it gently.
cotten
I find a lot of wisdom in ^ this approach and it's one I impose on myself, whether or not price discussion is allowed. I find that often, discussions are more focused when discussion of price is left out. On other forums I visit, the membership simply said, "Email dealer X, Y, and Z for below-MAP prices." I did that (Ted @ LA Guitar Sales, to be specific) and found that to be true. Some of the "What did you get on Black Friday and for how much?" threads on other forums tend to be less-than-enlightening reading. It was less about the guitar and more about how much (or how little) I paid for it.
Just my $0.02 (it's worth less than that....but we can't discuss prices ;))
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I've always been somewhat ambivalent on this subject. I sway on the side of "no public price discussions," however, only for the simplest of reasons: it keeps the discussion untainted by other interests. Without price as a factor (again, on the public board), then we can hopefully feel more free to say what we realy want to say about guitar x or y, unfettered by "well I got it for this much." I like the idea of keeping the discussion focused on the guitar and gear; the price is a consideratin apart.
Keep in mind that anyone who may disagree with this rule is always free to discuss prices in PMs as private discussions are just that: private. So long as they are done respectfully, you can get a whole wealth of info from folks who are much more willing to share nuts/bolts when they know it won't be aired in open view.
Just my $.02 :)
Edward
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Well, let me ask this: AGF rescinded the no-price rule a few months ago. Have a significant number of threads broken down into price discussions? Not from what I've seen.
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Pricing aside from that occassional "deal of the day" alert should be kept off the boards...as posted from some other members the price is part of the story but not all....service before and after the sale, somebody getting you in the right guitar is well worth something. And if you have a dealer 1 dollar less who does not give you those things was being directed there a good thing?
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....I like the idea of keeping the discussion focused on the guitar and gear...
Edward
....service before and after the sale, somebody getting you in the right guitar is well worth something. And if you have a dealer 1 dollar less who does not give you those things was being directed there a good thing?
E & D -
i agree with you wholeheartedly
i believe that after everything else is done & the deciding
factor is purely $, then an off-board PM will suffice nicely
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Origionally I thought that lifting the price discussion on AGF was a good idea, but I came to have a change of mind, particularly after the Amazon, Best Buy Taylor circus around Thanksgiving.
On an aside, I visisted my local BB yesterday and the acoustic room was still bare of Taylors (and not much of anything else either).
I've always been able to get the pricing information I need with a request for PM's.
Gary
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Well another thing is that this and the other one are forums for discussion about guitars, not intended to be a bargain-shopper's-tool.
Not that there's anything wrong with getting a good price, but that shouldn't be a big focus.
In reality, I know that over the years I've probably overpaid at times to get what I wanted, when I wanted it, but then again, I just consider it the entry fee for getting what I want, when I want. If you keep searching for the absolute bottom dollar you might just miss out entirely. Plus, whether it's a guitar, a vintage revolver, a motorcycle or a camera - about a year after I buy it I no longer remember exactly what I paid, so who cares if I coulda got it for a wee bit less?
That said, sure I'll keep an eye on guitar lists in sig lines and PM a member if I have a price question about a particular guitar, but in the open lets just stick to talking about the actual guitars.
-K
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Interesting discussion here.
My assumption is that most Taylor fans know about the two top(?) guitar stores. I don't know if I should even name them but I bet most of you all know which two I am talking about. Anyhow, if we are all (or the majority) are in the know of these competitive prices, why don't we just have it out in the open so that the buyers are well informed because making a purchase.
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Interesting discussion here.
My assumption is that most Taylor fans know about the two top(?) guitar stores. I don't know if I should even name them but I bet most of you all know which two I am talking about. Anyhow, if we are all (or the majority) are in the know of these competitive prices, why don't we just have it out in the open so that the buyers are well informed because making a purchase.
Because a price is a personal consideration between the potential buyer and seller, IMHO. Nothing wrong with saying "hey all, got a crazy deal over at xyz, seriously low, go check it out, here's the link..." so long as the specific $$ amt is not typed. To me, this preserves whatever personal/private conditions that transpired between the two parties remain personal/private. And we are always free to PM one another to get the full scoop. Say all you want to say to help others and/or celebrate a NGD on a public forum, but just not the $$ figure ...to me this simple rule helps prevent misunderstandings and/or hard feelings. Again, just IMHO.
Edward
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Well, let me ask this: AGF rescinded the no-price rule a few months ago. Have a significant number of threads broken down into price discussions? Not from what I've seen.
Broken down? Probably not, I agree. There hasn't been any kind of meltdown since the rule changed. But on that forum there are a lot more people looking for the lowest price today than before, mainly because the prohibition. I am glad I don't have to insert $xxxx forty-eleven times a day since the rule change, but I think some people miss out on a lot of good guitar discussion because they are so very focused on nothing but the price.
I am very frugal on everything, by necessity and choice. But then I tend to play my guitars for many years, too. Spending a hundred dollars more on just the right guitar, spread over a dozen or more years of playing, doesn't amount to much. I'd rather focus on getting the right guitar for me than on trying to save a little on something similar to the one I like, and hope that I like the result.
There are definitely pros and cons on both sides of the question. I'm perfectly happy to let the person who owns the forum make the decision. ;D
cotten
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Interesting discussion here.
My assumption is that most Taylor fans know about the two top(?) guitar stores. I don't know if I should even name them but I bet most of you all know which two I am talking about. Anyhow, if we are all (or the majority) are in the know of these competitive prices, why don't we just have it out in the open so that the buyers are well informed because making a purchase.
sounds ok in theory, but (imho) the end result could be pitting one dealer against another & against all the others as well -
if i were to say dealer-x quoted me a JMDNGCSA for XXXX & someone else said dealer-y would sell the same guitar
for XXXY, where would the nickel & diming stop, if either dealer states that they will match or beat anyone elses price
btw, this for the new, yet-to-be-announced jumnaughtgrandconsymphorium model with venetiantine cutaway,
western redsinkadienglkawalhog top & flameyquiltmasterAAAAA big leaf sapovangkoacocomacwaplhogascar back & sides ;)
imho, there are several dealers that offer great service, before, during & after the sale at very competitive pricing as well :)
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Please don't take this post the wrong way. I mean it all respectfully, even though parts of it might come out a bit sarcastic. I also have no trouble respecting that this rule is a part of this forum. It's all good :) I just have a real struggle finding the logic in the arguments.
So, everybody thinks that price is at least a small factor in buying a guitar. But for some reason, most of us here seem to think that adult people should be protected against this information. Because A) They are of a type that can't be trusted to use this information wisely; as a part of many factors in choosing a guitar and a seller. B) They are of an even worse kind: The type that puts price before everything else (we can't have that here, can we?) C) We have to protect adult people from getting "hurt" if they suddenly discovered that they paid "too much" (even though we already agreed that we would have no trouble paying a bit more for the right guitar).
And in the same breath, we say, or at least imply, A, B and C above, AND that "It's no problem, we can just do it via PM".
As I said, I really don't get this ...
And we are also neglecting consequenses like A) People spending a LOT more of their hard earned money than they probably should, because the seller senses that the buyer is not very well informed. B) Making it much more difficult to give credit to sellers that have great prices and at the same time provide excellent service. Yes, of course we can say things like "I would email X - you might be surprised...", but for somebody who thinks MAP is the absolute lowest price you can get, it might not mean much... C) Deciding, on behalf of other, adult people, which information they are worthy of getting easy access to, and judging them on basis of what priorities they have when looking for a guitar.
I know all of you are good, well meaning people, and that none of you advocate such a rule in order to be mean in any way. So I'm not trying to imply that you are. But the above "summary" is how my brain interpretes the arguments, and it really puzzles me.
I know too many people, some that are really close to me, that alway gets ripped of when they buy stuff. Not all of us have the same ability to gather and interprete data in this Internet age. I guess I would just very much like to not make it any harder. If that means that I would have to tolerate some "Black Friday" posts once in a while, then so be it. I also do trust that most people realize that many factors contribute to a good shopping experience. And those who buy only on basis of price ... well, it's their choice...
What about making a pricing-FAQ of some sort? It could describe the normal range of discount to expect from MSRP, but also give some thoughs about why you might not would want to save that extra $200. It could focus on other factors that experienced guitar players find important when buying a guitar. Things like finding the "right" guitar, trying before buying, benefits of buying locally and in all fairness also mention that some online sellers have fairly good return policies. In addition, it could say something about total price, when shipping and sales tax are added.
Well, I've written a lot now, while I probably just should let it rest. I have no hope in changing anybody's opinion on this matter, and it is not a problem either. This will be a nice place anyway :) I just really get very puzzled when the majority seems to reason in a way that I really don't understand. So I just felt a need to express myself ... you can call it self-therapy :)
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No need to feel like you have to "let it rest" ...unless you want to, that is. All opinions welcome, and you've certainly voiced yours with clarity and respect. It's all good, friend!
Where my simple disagreement lies is when you (or others) say something to the effect of "protecting ourselves from information" ...this sounds like censorship, or at the very least a detriment to us doing our best to get the best. Of course information is good; who doesn't want to be an informed buyer. But never forget there is no limitation of information available: it's all there! Ask individuals here privately; contact dealers privately; compare everything to your heart's desire. Even get opinions here on dealers and their experiences/satisfaction. All of which is still available and not a single limitation to your ability to get the best guit for your dough: all possible without the mention of a specific dollar figure. That's all I'm saying. Discuss on, friend!! :)
Edward
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Personally I could care less than what anyone else pays or paid for their guitar. When I purchase anything I try to get the best deal I can get. The definition of a successful sale is when the seller and buyer are both satisifed with the transaction. When I leave the store with the guitar in hand, I feel like I have made a good deal and am happy with it. If I didn't think I was getting a good deal, then either I shold not have bought it or shame on me for going with it. If someone else in another location gets a better deal/price, then kudo's to him/her. I see no problem with posting prices. It gives the "community" an idea of what the average price is. If a dealer is selling too high above the average price and ripping us off (= gouging), then, sorry, good-bye. That's what the free market is all about. Some people pay a little more, and some pay a little less. That's just the way it is. Just after I bought my 814, I found out that Best Buy was selling them for a little less than what I paid. Well it turned out that none of the stores in my area sold Taylors anyway, so if someone in Idaho got a little better price than I did, then good for him. I was happy with the price i paid, and have no problem posting it here. Ask me if you want to know and I will be glad to tell you. The other benefit is that the Taylor people who are definitely observing/monitoring (likely annonymously) these comments can see what we are willing to pay and can ensure that they are pricing their products according to what the market will bear. Personally, my opinion is that, as great as Taylor guitars are, they are priced too high for a mass produced product that is competing with other guitars that are more hand-made (Martin and Guild for example). I realize that all of the manufacturers use automation for certain parts of production in order to be comeptitive, but I get the impression that Taylor takes it to a very high level in order to mass produce instruments that are sold on Amazon.com and through Best Buy. I think it is highly unlikely that you would see these distribution channels for other well-known, high-end guitars, and defintiely not for customs. And Taylors are priced right up there with the best of them - because we players are willing to pay the price (going back to one of my earlier comments about a successful sale).
Just my opinion...
Jim
Good topic by the way.
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I wonder how much of an issue this really is on a Taylor forum.
Most folks know what the best Taylor street pricing is and where to get it. That's the benchmark from which we measure other pricing and start making comparisons re availability of particular models. My local dealer matches those prices and it just doesn't seem like a big deal.
in terms of finding the best overall value (service before, during & after the sale) along with competitive pricing,
i believe that if a person found their way to an internet guitar forum, then it would not be very difficult to find a
number of dealers that people had good experiences with, as well as some places to potentially avoid, imho -
outside of that, i'm wondering how many people that are looking at purchasing a guitar, perhaps for the first time, are aware
that going into a music store is a bit different than going into other retail stores in that it is possible to negotiate on the price
also a good number of music stores sell used gear, accept trade-ins, do consignments & offer in-store financing,
which, in effect, is similar (in terms of range-of-services provided) to that of an establishment that sell vehicles
i was in a store just yesterday & i could've walked out the door with a new 814ce for less than what a GA5 MAPs for
(not including tax), but i wasn't in the market for a new guitar & had no intention of buying it to 'flip-it', so i let it pass
i feel that this is a good discussion & being able to express one's opinion is teriffic, as the sharing of information &
one's experiences are what make having a place like to this to share so enjoyable (in essence, a great community)
my personal preference would be to see a discussion about the establishments people have done business with, where
they were happy with the entire experience (the customer service, product & price ... the 'whole nine-yards'), rather
than a thread to were it was based on the price 'over-and-above' everything else (i.e. sales tax & shipping costs)
ymmv
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I've never cared much for the pricing discussions but that is nothing compared to dealers trying to create business posting on the forum with their postings. Its far more annoying when dealers are shilling to everyone that mentions interest in a guitar.
-Dave
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Personally, my opinion is that, as great as Taylor guitars are, they are priced too high for a mass produced product that is competing with other guitars that are more hand-made (Martin and Guild for example). I realize that all of the manufacturers use automation for certain parts of production in order to be comeptitive, but I get the impression that Taylor takes it to a very high level in order to mass produce instruments that are sold on Amazon.com and through Best Buy. I think it is highly unlikely that you would see these distribution channels for other well-known, high-end guitars, and defintiely not for customs. And Taylors are priced right up there with the best of them - because we players are willing to pay the price (going back to one of my earlier comments about a successful sale).
I'm not sure about Amazon.com, but it's not just Taylors that are available at Best Buy. Their acoustic section also has Martins, Takamines, Ovations, and if I remember correctly Gibsons (and others), and their electric section has Gibsons, Fenders, and so on. It's more or less the usual suspects you would expect to find at Guitar Center or Sam Ash. I had a bad experience at the acoustic department of a Best Buy so don't take this as any kind of endorsement of them, but I am not really sure why Taylor seems to often get singled out as "oh no, it's at Best Buy!" when Martin and most of the brands that compete with Taylor are there too. Though I agree with you that Taylors, while good guitars, are a little overpriced. However I'm not that bothered by the mass production aspect, because I started on electric guitars and am used to the idea of guitars being mass produced.
Anyway, I'd personally like to see pricing discussions be allowed, and feel pretty much exactly the same about it as does chubakabra (excellent post).
As for dealers commenting on other dealers' pricing, outlawing public price discussion isn't going to prevent dealers from sniping customers from each other. If they are that type of dealer, they can still do it via private message. Frankly, I would rather see that stuff out in the open so I can see which dealers are unscrupulous and make a mental note to avoid those.
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this post has been deleted, due to content that was deemed inappropriate
There is much irony in this post. 'nuff said.
-Dave
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Well, Ed, in a specific instance, I want to know what you paid for that GORGEOUS R. Taylor in maple. I bet it was a BAZILLION dollars, 'casue that's what it looks like! ;D
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I've never cared much for the pricing discussions but that is nothing compared to dealers trying to create business posting on the forum with their postings. Its far more annoying when dealers are shilling to everyone that mentions interest in a guitar.
-Dave
I hate that too Dave. ;D
In all seriousness, on another forum we had some great fun with threads I started having to do with custom runs I was planning. Folks felt they had some input, which they did, while others could vent about what they didn't like. All in all these threads were well received because people got to do what they come to forums like this for in the first place, talk about guitars.
I know there are some that would rather not have dealer involvement in a forum like this, but in my experience they are the minority. Good news for guys like you is not many dealers bother to participate so you will only have to put up with a couple of annoying dealers like me. ;)
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Ted,
I really appreciate the knowledge that you (and Jim too) bring to our forum. I know that both of you have helped me understand many interesting technical details about Taylor guitars that I would not easily have come across on my own. Thank you very much for participating here at the forum with us - you guys are a wonderful resource :)
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I know a guy who bought his first "step up" guitar, a nice Taylor. He was thrilled with it in every way. That is, until he went on a guitar forum and discovered that he'd paid more than he needed to. That soured him on the guitar, and he eventually sold it and went back to what he had been playing for years. Now he thinks most any guitar over about $800 is "overrated," and seems to have an aggressive bent to his opinion.
Had that forum not discussed guitar prices, he still may have discovered that he had paid more than necessary, but it would have taken longer at least.
cotten
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I know a guy who bought his first "step up" guitar, a nice Taylor. He was thrilled with it in every way. That is, until he went on a guitar forum and discovered that he'd paid more than he needed to. That soured him on the guitar, and he eventually sold it and went back to what he had been playing for years. Now he thinks most any guitar over about $800 is "overrated," and seems to have an aggressive bent to his opinion.
Had that forum not discussed guitar prices, he still may have discovered that he had paid more than necessary, but it would have taken longer at least.
cotten
sounds like, to me, that the guitar that he'd been playing for years was the right guitar for him & hopefully he's still playing & enjoying it :)
imho, there are many, many, many great guitars available for under 8 bills ... & some of them just might happen to be Taylors ;)
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Evidently, he agrees with you, Michael, that his old guitar is the one for him, though he is now very anti-Taylor. Oh well. Funny though. He loved his Taylor until he found that he had overpaid by a bit.
cotten
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I hate that too Dave. ;D
In all seriousness, on another forum we had some great fun with threads I started having to do with custom runs I was planning. Folks felt they had some input, which they did, while others could vent about what they didn't like. All in all these threads were well received because people got to do what they come to forums like this for in the first place, talk about guitars.
I know there are some that would rather not have dealer involvement in a forum like this, but in my experience they are the minority. Good news for guys like you is not many dealers bother to participate so you will only have to put up with a couple of annoying dealers like me. ;)
Members who are specing out their BTO don't want dealers jumping on threads to tell them about the one they just ordered for someone else, nor do they want dealers trying to sell them when they are just trying to get questions answered.
Would I prefer to have dealers on the forum, no okay, maybe to answer general questions, "is this offered on a bto?" or "is the 700 series going away?" or "what's causing this buzzing sound?", then yes. Do I personally want you or Jim or MFG answering questions with a bent on selling me something, no. This would include even if the dealer is a sponsor.
I do not believe that I'm in the minority on this here based on the many private emails I've gotten here and on the other forum over the last year. People grow weary of posting if they don't feel they can post without someone trying to sell them something and that takes away a great deal of enjoyment to the forum for many people.
For almost all of us here this is not a business, it is a hobby we love and want to talk about with others just like us. We should be able to do so without the shill all the time.
-Dave
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"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten". C. G. Campbell
if all that's remembered is the price, then perhaps the quality was forgotten ???
out of respect for our forum administrator & friend, i believe this one's run it's course -
thank you all for participating in this interesting & enlightening discussion