Soundfile Comparison: Taylor NEW Expression System & Taylor Expression System V3

[KenGL]

Hi Folks:

Here are a couple of sound-files that compare the NEW EXPRESSION SYSTEM 2 piezo-based system with the still-current EXPRESSION SYSTEM Version 3 magnetic-based system. These files were made by playing moderately-hard with a flatpick directly into a JamMan (24-bit, 44.1 kHz, 192 MHz), uploading to a computer, and then to SoundCloud for their proprietary file processing. All on-board controls are set to the detent positions on both Taylor guitars and the JamMan's Gain Level set to briefly clip on the loudest passages. I included moderate knuckle-knocking on the top, rear-side, and back to demonstrate the potential for percussive effects. Why did I do these demos with moderate-drive, flatpick strumming only? My opinion is that a pickup/preamp system that can handle the power and dynamics of flatpick strumming will sound good when fingerstyling too. No EQ'ing or effects were used in making these sound files--they are raw. The guitars are: Taylor 2013 516e FLTD with NEW Expression System 2 and Taylor 2013 818e First Edition with Expression System Version 3. Hear them here:

https://soundcloud.com/tags/acoustic%20guitar%20pickup/preamp%20demo

Regards,

KenGL

P.S. For possibly improved recording quality and fidelity, over the holidays when I have some time off, I'll make new soundfiles using my PreSonus Firebox as the analog-to-digital capturing tool rather than the JamMan. I'll also make recordings of all the guitars/pickup-preamp systems in my signature for auditioning on SoundCloud.

[Tarekith]

Soundcloud streaming murders audio for stuff like this.  There's obviously differences, but could you make the files downloadable so we can hear them in better detail?  Thanks!

[michaelw]

thanks for sharing the clips, ken
to me, it was a little more difficult to discern between the pickup system, not because of the recording medium or
technique used, which was perfectly fine to me, but more because of the difference & woods & body shapes

it were a "blind" comparison, i would have likely been able to determine which was the sitka/rosewood grand orchestra & euro
spruce/mahogany grand symphony but other than the signal seemingly being hotter on the ES2 with the same settings & the
516s characteristics of having stronger fundamentals & more-forward midrange, i wouldn't really be able to make a decision,
yay or nay, that i would like to have the ES2 in a future guitar, but in general i favor mahogany's response over rosewood, so i
would've leaned toward the 516 based it's it acoustic tone alone, only because of having played a 818e FE & a 516ce engelmann

i don't recall seeing/hearing an ES2 clip yet ,  so yours is the first
thanks for taking the time & effort to put it out there & share it here ... raw is good 

i do find the post above mine to be a bit odd, because the poster uses soundcloud
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=4198.msg43213#msg43213

from my listening, i found it very difficult to hear an 814ce in this clip,
other than a hint around 1:07-1:09 possibly, but that's probably just me
http://tarekith.com/mp3s/Tarekith-InSplits&Starts.m4a

[KenGL]

Soundcloud streaming murders audio for stuff like this.  There's obviously differences, but could you make the files downloadable so we can hear them in better detail?  Thanks!

Download button now added to soundfiles.

Regards,

KenGL

[KenGL]

thanks for sharing the clips, ken
to me, it was a little more difficult to discern between the pickup system, not because of the recording medium or
technique used, which was perfectly fine to me, but more because of the difference & woods & body shapes

it were a "blind" comparison, i would have likely been able to determine which was the sitka/rosewood grand orchestra & euro
spruce/mahogany grand symphony but other than the signal seemingly being hotter on the ES2 with the same settings & the
516s characteristics of having stronger fundamentals & more-forward midrange, i wouldn't really be able to make a decision,
yay or nay, that i would like to have the ES2 in a future guitar, but in general i favor mahogany's response over rosewood, so i
would've leaned toward the 516 based it's it acoustic tone alone, only because of having played a 818e FE & a 516ce engelmann

i don't recall seeing/hearing an ES2 clip yet ,  so yours is the first
thanks for taking the time & effort to put it out there & share it here ... raw is good 

Michael,

Thanks!

Raw is good for evaluating the unmodified output of a pickup/preamp system but, of course, both systems do sound better when played through the amplification systems in my signature. The 818e with Regular ES Version 3 is more feedback resistant than the 516e FLTD with New ES2. To me, the New ES2 sounds more acoustic-guitar-like than the Regular ES Version 3. IMHO, the Regular ES Version 3 (and earlier versions) would be well-suited to the higher sound levels in rock and pop-rock bands whereas I feel the New ES2 would fit in well with solo-acoustic players and acoustic-roots-type band players.

Regards,

Ken

[Gutch]

I'm hearing a pretty distinct difference between the two examples.  The piezo based system seems to emphasize low mids with a warmer upper register with less individual note clarity.  The SBT/Magnetic system seems to emphasize the upper mids and high register with a lot of note clarity, but weak on the bottom end.   I'd love to hear a combination of the two systems -- I think that would hit all bases well.


Question -- Does the new piezo based system also use any components from the legacy system?  Mag pickup under the fretboard or the SBT?

[KenGL]

I'm hearing a pretty distinct difference between the two examples.  The piezo based system seems to emphasize low mids with a warmer upper register with less individual note clarity.  The SBT/Magnetic system seems to emphasize the upper mids and high register with a lot of note clarity, but weak on the bottom end.   I'd love to hear a combination of the two systems -- I think that would hit all bases well.


Question -- Does the new piezo based system also use any components from the legacy system?  Mag pickup under the fretboard or the SBT?

Gutch,

Other than the 9-volt, end-pin-jack/strap-button assembly, the New Expression System 2 doesn't use any legacy components from the magnetic-based ES. The preamp is different but has the same three-hole, control-button layout as the magnetic system. I'm thinking anyone with machining skill, including Taylor Guitars and myself, with access to a Bridgeport milling machine, could drill and bore the bridge for a retro-fit of the New Expression System 2 into guitars with the magnetic-based ES Versions 2 and 3.

Regards,

Ken

[michaelw]

Michael,

Thanks!

Raw is good for evaluating the unmodified output of a pickup/preamp system but, of course, both systems do sound better when played through the amplification systems in my signature. The 818e with Regular ES Version 3 is more feedback resistant than the 516e FLTD with New ES2. To me, the New ES2 sounds more acoustic-guitar-like than the Regular ES Version 3. IMHO, the Regular ES Version 3 (and earlier versions) would be well-suited to the higher sound levels in rock and pop-rock bands whereas I feel the New ES2 would fit in well with solo-acoustic players and acoustic-roots-type band players.

Regards,

Ken

for me, effects have their place in polishing a track & provide overall "roundness" &
sparingly used, especially with mostly acoustic recordings, they can be a good thing -
however, too much of a good thing can cause the loss of the native tone of the guitar,
which is why i appreciate your clips of the guitars being pretty much "straight-up"

i prefer plugging into & listening to a source that is transparent as possible &
when evaluating a pickup i like to use a powered monitor, as opposed to an
acoustic amp which may add unwanted coloration & extraneous noise to the signal

if i had more knowledge regarding the aspect of track recording & the rig to do it, i would
normalize the levels for each track, sync them & assign a seaprate channel to each guitar,
so that on playback, the guitars could be "critiqued" separately relatively seamlessly -
i've done a little bit of piddling with mixing live sound, but it was merely an observation

i wonder if someone with electronics savvy might consider "hacking" the ES ver 3 & ES2, incorporating
the neck, bridge & soundboard pickups, with 6 way switching in order to use any or all of the pickups
separately or in combinations, as there are other pickup manufacturers that offer triple source p'ups

[Edward]

...i wonder if someone with electronics savvy might consider "hacking" the ES ver 3 & ES2, incorporating
the neck, bridge & soundboard pickups, with 6 way switching in order to use any or all of the pickups
separately or in combinations, as there are other pickup manufacturers that offer triple source p'ups [/font][/size][/color]

I've wondered aloud in the past --with regard to the current gen-3 ES-- about whether someone with electroincs savvy could build a simple "blend pot" between the mag pup and body sensor. 
I do know that the body harness simply plugs into the preamp.  So if someone could interrupt the input of the mag pup, and then build a molex where this source and the body sensor can plug into, add a center-detent pot to adjust bias, you'd have a nifty little blender control not unlike existing dual-source systems.  I'd love it if someone would experiment with an ES and post results.  Anyone here know if the mag pickup "plugs" into the preamp??

Edward

[michaelw]

on the ES ver 1.0 with 2AA power supply & no defeatable body sensor switches on the preamp,
the neck pick up & humbucking coil have their own molex connectors, as do the the 2 body sensors -
on this version, my guess would be to have a "piggy-back" connector that goes in between the
plug & socket, wired to a pot, one for the neck p'up & one for each body sensor, for a total of 3 ...
that might get a little complex at that point but, as far as i know, i haven't heard of the neck p'up
being bypassed/defeated, as the signal seems to pass through it last, to the preamp, onto the output

with the ver 2.0 or 3.0, it might  be a slightly simpler matter to replace the body sensor defeat switches or switch
with pots, but any resistance values would need to be matched & some type of shielding taken into account, etc -
being able to attenuate or boost the magnetic neck pickup signal would be a nice option, but a
more feasible setup might  be to be able to independently vary the level of the body sensor(s)

again, i'm not sure - my electronics savvy is limited to ohm's law, reading color bands on resistors, figuring out
the polarity of caps & leds & keeping the smoke in the wires - desoldering & soldering components, not so much

go-go gadget macgyver

[Edward]

I was thinking similarly with the body-sensor switch: that since the two sources are in series and the switch defeats the body sensor, replacing the switch with a bias pot would be nice.  The problem is not having and entire ES just kinda laying around on the bench to goof with values ...lol!

Edward

...sorry for the derail, folks....

[Tarekith]

i do find the post above mine to be a bit odd, because the poster uses soundcloud
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=4198.msg43213#msg43213

from my listening, i found it very difficult to hear an 814ce in this clip,
other than a hint around 1:07-1:09 possibly, but that's probably just me
http://tarekith.com/mp3s/Tarekith-InSplits&Starts.m4a

Not to get too far off track, but I have no problems with soundcloud for sharing tracks with people or for the social aspects.  But anything you stream from there is poorly converted to a 128kbps mp3 which makes it less than ideal for detailed comparisons.  Downloads are the same format as the original upload, much better for comparisons.

And that track has a ton of 814 guitar in it, aside from a couple real synth tracks, everything else is heavily effected (boss Tera echo, jam up xt pro) and altered acoustic guitar.

Thanks Ken for making the links downloadable!