Taylor Limiteds - are they like the real thing (414 vs 814; 314 vs 614, etc)?

[AlexRkstr]

What is your experience with limited models? I see some 414ce/416ce Fall Ltd rosewoods that are commonly referred to as the "poor man's 814ce".

Similarly, Taylor built a 314ce L2 that is the equivalent to a 614ce.

Bracing being equal, is there a significant sonic difference between these two? Is the ugly wood they use on the lower series acoustically different?

[wooglins]

Used to be they were exactly the same as far as bracing, etc.

Now you have to look at whether the Ltd. has CV bracing or not.  Some are all gloss some are not.  The all gloss 31x and 41x models are the same when all gloss if they have the CV bracing.

A perfect example is the rosewood model 41x that has been released a few times in all gloss.  Aside from some trim differences they are identical.

[egkor]

A local dealer had the Limited 41Xce models w/ (EI?) Rosewood B/S and I believe CV bracing (yes the poor man's 81Xce as you describe) .  When I saw them hanging there I thought "Wow, this should be good when I sample them".  In other words I had high expectations.

After sampling their 2 416ce-LTDs (GS), I was left wanting more bass. I actually found it same day same store with the 410ce-LTD (DN), but at the time I was more interested in the GS shape.

My parting impression was: No, I did not think the 416ce-LTDs of that day were equivalent to the 816ce in tone. I was surprised it worked out that way that day for those particular guitars.

Ideally you would be able to make the same or similar test for yourself.

Gary K

[AlexRkstr]

A local dealer had the Limited 41Xce models w/ (EI?) Rosewood B/S and I believe CV bracing (yes the poor man's 81Xce as you describe) .  When I saw them hanging there I thought "Wow, this should be good when I sample them".  In other words I had high expectations.

After sampling their 2 416ce-LTDs (GS), I was left wanting more bass. I actually found it same day same store with the 410ce-LTD (DN), but at the time I was more interested in the GS shape.

My parting impression was: No, I did not think the 416ce-LTDs of that day were equivalent to the 816ce in tone. I was surprised it worked out that way that day for those particular guitars.

Ideally you would be able to make the same or similar test for yourself.

Gary K

Interesting, I would like to see if someone chimes in with a scientific explanation for this.

[dmccrider]

This is a subject I think I might know a little about. My main acoustic is an '09 414ce Fall LTD-Rosewood. Mine is an all gloss but I don't believe the bracing is CV, I think it is forward shifted X or something. I bought it brand new and I'd have to say that when I first brought it home it was definately a bit tight to start. The bass was lighter than what I would normally prefer (I like a lot of bass) and the tone was not nearly as warm as it would eventually become. After the first year or so it opened up nicely and it gained a really solid bass response and impressive tone. People complement me on it all the time saying that they thought it looked cool and comment on how amazing the sound is. I'm definately very happy with it, I've played lots of Taylors and I'd say that my guitar sounds better than the vast majority I've played and heard. I must admit however that I have played an 814 that I thought sounded better but I can totally understand how someone could call it a "poor man's 814" 'cause that is exactly what it has been for me! Make no mistake, if you like the sound of rosewood, I think you will agree it sounds much better than anything you will find under the 700 series. Another thing that I must mention was that at first I thought I liked all the appointments on the 814 better but over time I've really grown to appreciate the more understated look of my limited. It packs an awesome rosewood tone that you can take anywhere and not feel like you're showing off some fancy big money guitar! There is something to be said for that, I've got another Taylor that sounds better and worth more but it doesn't come out as much, I feel at home with my limited in almost any situation.

[play2praiseHim]

The quick answer to your question is absolutely yes !  You get more guitar for less $ with the LTD's. However, even 2 identical guitars within the same series will not sound exactly the same.  My walnut/cedar 414ce LTD is based on the W14ce. I happen to prefer the specs of my 414ceLTD to the W14ce. The best value for the $ is in buying used and buying a LTD. Buy a used LTD and you've hit the bargain lotto. Just remember, you have to judge each guitar on its individual merits.

[e8n]

Its hard to have the discussion about such generalities.  When I bought my 814LTD the dealer had two identical guitars (both coco 814ltds).  The one I didn't choose was beautiful in appearance.  The wood on it was wild looking.  The one I actually bought was a lot more vanilla for a Coco guitar.  Its really pretty but nothing like the other guitar.

I had the dealer A/B the two guitars of exactly the same model for me.  The pretty guitar was maybe a 7 out of 10 the one I ended up buying was a 9/10.  The difference in sound was enormous.  The two guitars were out of the same shipment and neither had been played much in the store so it wasn't a dead string issue etc.

The moral to the story is that even with two guitars that are supposedly exactly the same there are differences.  So that said, there will LTD that sound 10 times better than the "real" thing.  There will also be duds.  The only real way to tell is to play them all and find what you like.

-Dave

[wooglins]

A local dealer had the Limited 41Xce models w/ (EI?) Rosewood B/S and I believe CV bracing (yes the poor man's 81Xce as you describe) .  When I saw them hanging there I thought "Wow, this should be good when I sample them".  In other words I had high expectations.

After sampling their 2 416ce-LTDs (GS), I was left wanting more bass. I actually found it same day same store with the 410ce-LTD (DN), but at the time I was more interested in the GS shape.

My parting impression was: No, I did not think the 416ce-LTDs of that day were equivalent to the 816ce in tone. I was surprised it worked out that way that day for those particular guitars.

Ideally you would be able to make the same or similar test for yourself.

Gary K

Those guitars would not have had the CV bracing.  I am not sure any 31x or 41x Ltd edition has included the CV bracing to date.  That would possibly explain the difference in tone, as CV bracing is standard on the 81x.   

Also Dave makes excellent points about the differences between wood sets. 

[Edward]

You already heard it: different guitars, even if "identical," will sound different due to the sum of all those minute variables which comprise the instrument and its voice.

I had a 410 which was supposed to sound big; yet my maple DN has deeper, richer bass. Kept one, sold the other.
I had two Baby Taylors ...identical except for the outer-most laminate: one clearly had a deeper voice.  Kept one, sold the other.
I have a maple/engle in a GC body: bass tones are deeper and tighter than some GAs and GSs, no joke.  Yeah, she's a keeper alrighty.

Three quickie examples of how "what should" sometimes doesn't turn out to be "what is."  And many more folks, I am confident, would concur with their own tonal revelations.  The short story is the build specs can give us an idea of what to expect, but the final analysis comes from hearing it for yourself.  If you end up getting the less expensive guitar that "blows away" its more pricey counterpart, then you've found a gem.  But you have no "bargain" when you've saved money only to find yourself still wanting.

Edward

[e8n]

You already heard it: different guitars, even if "identical," will sound different due to the sum of all those minute variables which comprise the instrument and its voice.

I had a 410 which was supposed to sound big; yet my maple DN has deeper, richer bass. Kept one, sold the other.
I had two Baby Taylors ...identical except for the outer-most laminate: one clearly had a deeper voice.  Kept one, sold the other.
I have a maple/engle in a GC body: bass tones are deeper and tighter than some GAs and GSs, no joke.  Yeah, she's a keeper alrighty.

Three quickie examples of how "what should" sometimes doesn't turn out to be "what is."  And many more folks, I am confident, would concur with their own tonal revelations.  The short story is the build specs can give us an idea of what to expect, but the final analysis comes from hearing it for yourself.  If you end up getting the less expensive guitar that "blows away" its more pricey counterpart, then you've found a gem.  But you have no "bargain" when you've saved money only to find yourself still wanting.

Edward

So the moral of your story is "buy two, sell one".  I have to convince my wife that is a good idea. 

-Dave

[Captain Jim]

You already heard it: different guitars, even if "identical," will sound different due to the sum of all those minute variables which comprise the instrument and its voice.

I had a 410 which was supposed to sound big; yet my maple DN has deeper, richer bass. Kept one, sold the other.
I had two Baby Taylors ...identical except for the outer-most laminate: one clearly had a deeper voice.  Kept one, sold the other.
I have a maple/engle in a GC body: bass tones are deeper and tighter than some GAs and GSs, no joke.  Yeah, she's a keeper alrighty.

Three quickie examples of how "what should" sometimes doesn't turn out to be "what is."  And many more folks, I am confident, would concur with their own tonal revelations.  The short story is the build specs can give us an idea of what to expect, but the final analysis comes from hearing it for yourself.  If you end up getting the less expensive guitar that "blows away" its more pricey counterpart, then you've found a gem.  But you have no "bargain" when you've saved money only to find yourself still wanting.

Edward

So the moral of your story is "buy two, sell one".  I have to convince my wife that is a good idea. 

-Dave

Almost as expensive as: marry two, send one packing.  I'm just guessing on that, since my wife doesn't let me date.   

Back to the topic on hand: each Taylor IS "the real deal."  Each brings its own voice to the table.  Until last week, I had never bought a guitar that I didn't try first... and had it speak to me.  When I first considered a Taylor, and had heard how "consistent" they are, my experience has been that there are differences in guitars of the same series.

Let us know what you decide on.

Best wishes,
Jim

[Edward]

So the moral of your story is "buy two, sell one".  I have to convince my wife that is a good idea. 

-Dave

Well Dave ...didn't exactly work out that way. 
More like buy one, sell three!  And I did that twice!  That's what happens when certain "must haves" (that are, oh, lets just say somewhat beyond what I expected to pay) fall in your path.  But the tone ....ohhh, the tone

Edward

[michaelw]

in terms of the sitka/rosewood 414ce, the 99 & 03 (pre-standard II), fall 07 (standard II) &
the fall 11 (CV) LTDs had the same bracing pattern as the 814ce during the same year model

the 00 400MA, 02 & 03 300 maples had pre-standard II bracing also (like the 614ce had) -
there hasn't been any 300/400 maple LTDs since 03 & the 614ce went to standard II bracing
(in the fall of 04), although there have been maple LTDs with adi CV bracing (fall 09)

the tonal difference between a mix of LTD & standard models is likely to vary
just as there could be a difference between 2 LTD or 2 standard models

'ugly wood' 

i think it looks ok (410MA)

based on a 08 714ceLTD, 09 716ceLTD & 12 412ceFLTD, i'd say
the LTDs can  sometimes be more 'real' than the standard models

so far, the fall 11 rosewood & 12 cedar/tas blackwood 400s had CV bracing

[egkor]

The 416ce-LTD(s) I sampled (in my earlier post) were the 2011 Fall Ltd models, which I did believe to have CV Bracing.

Gary K

[maritimer]

IMO, I consider Taylor LTD's as being in two distinct classes.  First is the tweak to the standard model class where a feature is enhanced / changed through a limited offering of a top, or back and side wood.  An example is as was noted above where rosewood is added to the 4xx series.  Or the addition of Koa or blackwood etc for back and sides.  The look and feel of the guitar is otherwise identical to the standard model. The second class of LTD's are what I consider as true custom shop, top line LTDs and as expected are higher priced and more limited in production.  These LTD's feature rare wood selections and also feature BTO'esque finishing with bindings, backstraps etc.  Examples of these are the all koa bursts and cedar/macassar 12 fretters. 

I think that the LTD offering from Taylor is fantastic as it provides an opportunity for many to get into a guitar that has some BTO features at a better price point.  It also affords us players the opportunity to try them out and see how the change in woods affects the tone as compared to the standard models without committing to a BTO.  I know that exposure to LTD's is highly influential for those considering BTO's.  Some prefer the LTD's, some prefer the standards, some go the BTO route.  Thankfully we all have different appetites so we continue to get a seasonal menu change through the limited offerings!