Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: rosborn on February 27, 2015, 08:01:14 PM
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Hello All,
I am interested in the Taylor 410 (without electronics). I have read that the Ovangkol is similar to Rosewood. I have a Martin D-18 (spruce over mahogany) and I am looking for something that sounds different. Unfortunately, I don't have the opportunity to play it first as there are no 410s in my area, so I am buying from an online retailer. I like the sound of Rosewood but I really can't afford a 800 Series guitar.
So...I would like to know your opinions of the 410 sound and how it compares to the 810. Also, if any of you have a Martin D-18 how it compares with the 410.
Thank you and I look forward to your responses!
Rob
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We used to have a Martin D-18 (husband traded it for a Breedlove MC myrtle wood). And I've played my friend's ovangkol a bit. To me the ovangkol seems brighter than the rosewood 814 that I almost bought. Not as warm but similar tonal qualities. Re the Martin, it seemed a little more bass-y than my friend's Taylor guitar. Both were quite rich tonally though. Just slightly different. If you are trying to duplicate the D18, I'm not sure you will be 100% the same.
Edit: I just noted that you weren't trying to duplicate...sorry I misread. I think that you will find the ovangkol clearer, a bit brighter and (especially at the beginning) a bit crisper until it opens up a bit. It's rich but not as deep, IMO.
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We used to have a Martin D-18 (husband traded it for a Breedlove MC myrtle wood). And I've played my friend's ovangkol a bit. To me the ovangkol seems brighter than the rosewood 814 that I almost bought. Not as warm but similar tonal qualities. Re the Martin, it seemed a little more bass-y than my friend's Taylor guitar. Both were quite rich tonally though. Just slightly different. If you are trying to duplicate the D18, I'm not sure you will be 100% the same.
Hi!
Thank you for your reply! I'm not trying to duplicate the sound of the D-18; rather, I'm trying to find an affordable Taylor that sounds very different from my D-18. I don't want two guitars that sound alike - I couldn't justify that purchase.
Rob
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yes, I just caught that and edited my post about the same time that you responded. Sorry.
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yes, I just caught that and edited my post about the same time that you responded. Sorry.
No worries. Thank you very much for that feedback.
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Ovangkol has a similar tonal range as Rosewood, but the midrange is 'boosted' rather than 'scooped.' So the 410 should definitely have a noticeable sonic distinction from your 810.
I personally prefer Ovangkol to East Indian Rosewood (like in your 810), but not as much as some of the brighter-sounding woods (e.g., Cocobolo, Koa, Maple).
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Ovangkol has a similar tonal range as Rosewood, but the midrange is 'boosted' rather than 'scooped.' So the 410 should definitely have a noticeable sonic distinction from your 810.
I personally prefer Ovangkol to East Indian Rosewood (like in your 810), but not as much as some of the brighter-sounding woods (e.g., Cocobolo, Koa, Maple).
Hi Tim,
I actually have Martin D-18 (solid spruce top over solid mahogany back and sides) and not a 810. I was using the 810 (Rosewood) as a reference to what I had read about the sound of the 410 (Ovangkol). How about comparing the 410 to the D-18? Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Rob
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Hey rosborn, my buddy has a D18v that I've played quite a bit and heard him play a lot as well...He also had an HD28 (rosewood). I find as compared to the HD28, the D18 is brighter and cleaner tonally as a result of the mahogany. Similarly, as far as an ovangkol Taylor goes, I also think it is brighter than the rosewood Taylors, but it still has a certain depth of tone and they say, as alluded to earlier, the mids are more pronounced than rosewood, that it has less of a "scooped eq". I feel certain an ovangkol dread would sound at least somewhat different from your D18, but I'm wondering if you would want to consider a different shape such as the Grand Auditorium or Grand Symphony to further accentuate the difference?
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Hey rosborn, my buddy has a D18v that I've played quite a bit and heard him play a lot as well...He also had an HD28 (rosewood). I find as compared to the HD28, the D18 is brighter and cleaner tonally as a result of the mahogany. Similarly, as far as an ovangkol Taylor goes, I also think it is brighter than the rosewood Taylors, but it still has a certain depth of tone and they say, as alluded to earlier, the mids are more pronounced than rosewood, that it has less of a "scooped eq". I feel certain an ovangkol dread would sound at least somewhat different from your D18, but I'm wondering if you would want to consider a different shape such as the Grand Auditorium or Grand Symphony to further accentuate the difference?
That's and interesting suggestion. What is the size difference between the 410 and the 414? And, how would the tone differ?
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Hey rosborn, my buddy has a D18v that I've played quite a bit and heard him play a lot as well...He also had an HD28 (rosewood). I find as compared to the HD28, the D18 is brighter and cleaner tonally as a result of the mahogany. Similarly, as far as an ovangkol Taylor goes, I also think it is brighter than the rosewood Taylors, but it still has a certain depth of tone and they say, as alluded to earlier, the mids are more pronounced than rosewood, that it has less of a "scooped eq". I feel certain an ovangkol dread would sound at least somewhat different from your D18, but I'm wondering if you would want to consider a different shape such as the Grand Auditorium or Grand Symphony to further accentuate the difference?
That's and interesting suggestion. What is the size difference between the 410 and the 414? And, how would the tone differ?
The 414 is Taylor's Grand Auditorium which is Taylor's "flagship" shape in the sense that they probably sell more of this shape than any other and is a shape Bob Taylor came up with in the 90's (1994). It has about the same girth at the lower bout as a dread but has more of an hour glass shape at the waist and a more narrow upper bout. It also is a bit less thick from back to top, so it's very comfortable. You can see more here:
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/shapes/grand-auditorium
I would say that this shape definitely still has good bass tone, but it also has quite a bit of sparkle (treble) that maybe a dread might lack. Dreads, to me, bring more boom. The GA might also respond better to finger picking (maybe a bit more responsive top) than a dread but can also be strummed aggressively as well, though a good dread can be hammered and you might not take it that far with a GA. Nevertheless, the GA has plenty of headroom. A poster on this forum, strumming fool, swears by this shape, and for good reason, it is VERY VERSATILE.
Anyway, I would definitely give it a consideration as it would be an even greater departure from the D18 than just a dread in ovangkol would. You may not be able to find a ovangkol Taylor in your area, but if you have a store that sells Taylor, it is fairly certain they will have a GA shape in one of the guitars they offer, being Taylor's most popular shape, and you could at least try the shape to see what you think. Even if they only had a 114 or 214 (laminate), they would still give you a good idea. They sound great, too!
Let us know how it goes!
PS. Not to try to sell you on another Martin, but if Martins are the only guitars available at the stores in your area, most people would say they copied the Taylor GA shape with their Grand Performance series. If you can see one of those in person, you will have gotten quite close to the Taylor GA shape and that can give you a good idea if the 414 would be a good shape for you. BTW, the new 414ce (now that they're glossy finished) is on my radar, too!
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Ovangkol has a similar tonal range as Rosewood, but the midrange is 'boosted' rather than 'scooped.' So the 410 should definitely have a noticeable sonic distinction from your 810.
I personally prefer Ovangkol to East Indian Rosewood (like in your 810), but not as much as some of the brighter-sounding woods (e.g., Cocobolo, Koa, Maple).
Hi Tim,
I actually have Martin D-18 (solid spruce top over solid mahogany back and sides) and not a 810. I was using the 810 (Rosewood) as a reference to what I had read about the sound of the 410 (Ovangkol). How about comparing the 410 to the D-18? Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Rob
Sorry, Rob; I didn't read your post closely enough.
I personally have only played one Martin guitar; it was Spruce over Mahogany, but I'm not certain it was a D-18. I was comparing it to the Taylor 510 (also Spruce over Mahogany), and for all intents and purposes, they were sonically equivalent to my ears. So let's assume for the moment that your D-18 and my 510ce are similar enough in tone to qualify my 510ce as an analog for your D-18.
I've not directly compared a 410 to a 510; but I suspect that they would be largely similar in tonal profile. Both Mahogany and Ovangkol project 'boosted' midrange frequencies, with Mahogany favoring a bit more of the high end and Ovangkol being a bit 'warmer' to my ears. I think the primary difference would be in their overall tonal ranges; Ovangkol has a much wider response range (both toward high and low ends -- hence the reason it is often compared with Rosewood), whereas Mahogany tends to 'live' in the midrange frequencies. I also don't generally find Ovangkol to have the clarity of Rosewood (or even Mahogany), which is one of the properties that I do like about that tonewood.
I think you could hear some differences in tone between a 410 and your D-18, but whether those differences would be different enough to satisfy you is a bit harder to pin down; it's a pretty subjective topic... I suspect that a Rosewood guitar -- as opposed to Ovangkol -- would really be closer to what you're wanting... But your budgetary considerations seem to be pushing you away from an 810... Have you considered a used 810...? Or, if you're a fan of bright-sounding guitars, a 'legacy' 610? That would definitely be different from your D-18.
Regarding the Grand Auditorium (GA) compared to the Taylor Dreadnought (DN): Both are similar in size, but the DN shape promotes the midrange frequencies, whereas the GA seems to provide a more even overall tonal balance. So a 514 might strike you as quite different from your D-18, even though they both have solid Mahogany bodies. If you can try out a 514, it wouldn't hurt to consider it.
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I don't know if this will help, but when I decided that I "needed" ( ha!) a K series guitar, I was also in a situation where there was no way to try one locally. So I had to resort to shopping on-line. Wildwood Guitars (www. wildwoodguitars.com) has a good selection and they have sound and video clips of a lot of their guitars. You may be able to do a sound comparison of 400 series vs 800 series and they will also play and compare them for you. I was reluctant at first, but all worked out great when I purchased my K26.
Good luck
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I don't know if this will help, but when I decided that I "needed" ( ha!) a K series guitar, I was also in a situation where there was no way to try one locally. So I had to resort to shopping on-line. Wildwood Guitars (www. wildwoodguitars.com) has a good selection and they have sound and video clips of a lot of their guitars. You may be able to do a sound comparison of 400 series vs 800 series and they will also play and compare them for you. I was reluctant at first, but all worked out great when I purchased my K26.
Good luck
This is a really good suggestion. If you can listen to properly recorded videos at least it would give you an idea of sound comparisons. I know that some of the others have mentioned that the Mahogany isn't as deep as the Ovangkol. Since that was the opposite of what we noticed with our D-18 vs our friend's Taylor, (and we know that could have been anything from the particular trees used to the worn in sound of our guitar) so I would have had no idea it was the reverse in different circumstances. Sweetwater also has lots of videos for you to listen to different guitars. Even youtube does (if you can find one that has been properly recorded and not with bad sound equipment or odd effects added).
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I don't know if this will help, but when I decided that I "needed" ( ha!) a K series guitar, I was also in a situation where there was no way to try one locally. So I had to resort to shopping on-line. Wildwood Guitars (www. wildwoodguitars.com) has a good selection and they have sound and video clips of a lot of their guitars. You may be able to do a sound comparison of 400 series vs 800 series and they will also play and compare them for you. I was reluctant at first, but all worked out great when I purchased my K26.
Good luck
Cowboy,
Unfortunately, the 400 series does not seem to be well represented on the Wildwood site. In fact, there aren't a lot of videos available for the 400 series on the internet, period.
I'm not having much luck.
Thanks for the suggestion though.
Rob
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There is a YouTube video comparing the 310 to the D18. The Taylor is definitely brighter. One might assume the 410 would also be brighter and sound more different due to ovangkol instead of sapele back/sides. Whether it's enough different to justify the purchase can only be determined by listening live. Good luck.
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Well, Rob, I don't know whether this will help, but I was up at Empire Music today. While my brother was taking his lesson, I poked around in Empire's high-end room, and noted they had a 410 and a D18 in stock. So I played them side by side.
Frankly, the tone of both guitars sounded similar to me to a degree, in that both woods promote midrange frequency response. The 410 sounded fuller but warmer; the D18 seemed to have more focus [on the midrange] and clarity. I think this would be the primary difference you'd find between two Dreadnoughts made of Ovangkol and Mahogany.
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Well, Rob, I don't know whether this will help, but I was up at Empire Music today. While my brother was taking his lesson, I poked around in Empire's high-end room, and noted they had a 410 and a D18 in stock. So I played them side by side.
Frankly, the tone of both guitars sounded similar to me to a degree, in that both woods promote midrange frequency response. The 410 sounded fuller but warmer; the D18 seemed to have more focus [on the midrange] and clarity. I think this would be the primary difference you'd find between two Dreadnoughts made of Ovangkol and Mahogany.
Tim,
You're awesome! Thank you for being my eyes, ears and hands. From what you've written, it does indeed sound like Ovangkol probably favors the Rosewood end of the tonal spectrum - from my experience Rosewood does tend to be warmer than Mahogany.
I have a friend who has an Alvarez MD70 (solid Sitka spruce over solid EIR back and sides). We have compared our guitars and, much like your description, the two guitars sound similar to a degree, and like your experience, the MD70 sounds warmer and just a bit fuller. I don't know, it sounds like the Ovangkol is very similar to a Rosewood dread. I'm still going to consider getting that 410.
Thanks again!
Rob
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I have all three, but not dreds.
I have a 414ce Ovangkol, a 516ce Mahogany, and an 814ce Rosewood.
They all sound different. The Rosewood has a warmer sound than the Ovangkol, but since it's a new 814 with the new bracing, it has big bass.
The low E booms. I like them both.
They are just a little brighter than the 516 Mahogany, but my Mahogany is a GS.
Maybe I confused you more. LOL
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Is your 18 one of the new style with forward shifted bracing? I do not have a 410 but do have a 314ce and a new style d18. The 18 has much more volume and sustain. The 314ce is bright but not as balanced. If I had a chance to do it over I would have passed on the 314 and got the d18.
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Well, Rob, I don't know whether this will help, but I was up at Empire Music today. While my brother was taking his lesson, I poked around in Empire's high-end room, and noted they had a 410 and a D18 in stock. So I played them side by side.
Frankly, the tone of both guitars sounded similar to me to a degree, in that both woods promote midrange frequency response. The 410 sounded fuller but warmer; the D18 seemed to have more focus [on the midrange] and clarity. I think this would be the primary difference you'd find between two Dreadnoughts made of Ovangkol and Mahogany.
Tim,
You're awesome! Thank you for being my eyes, ears and hands. From what you've written, it does indeed sound like Ovangkol probably favors the Rosewood end of the tonal spectrum - from my experience Rosewood does tend to be warmer than Mahogany.
I have a friend who has an Alvarez MD70 (solid Sitka spruce over solid EIR back and sides). We have compared our guitars and, much like your description, the two guitars sound similar to a degree, and like your experience, the MD70 sounds warmer and just a bit fuller. I don't know, it sounds like the Ovangkol is very similar to a Rosewood dread. I'm still going to consider getting that 410.
Thanks again!
Rob
No worries, Rob! Yeah, I'd say Ovangkol and East Indian Rosewood are reasonably close sonic cousins. If you're looking for 'budget' Rosewood, you'll probably be happy with Ovangkol.
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Is your 18 one of the new style with forward shifted bracing? I do not have a 410 but do have a 314ce and a new style d18. The 18 has much more volume and sustain. The 314ce is bright but not as balanced. If I had a chance to do it over I would have passed on the 314 and got the d18.
Yes, my D-18 is one of the new ones. I was comparing the Taylor 310 and the D-18 when I was in the process of making the purchase. I went with the D-18 for the same reasons you cited.
I would really like to give Taylor a chance though.
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I had a 410 for a brief period a couple of years ago.
I was a newbie, just learning. My 410 sounded awesome, everywhere I went, everyone that heard it wanted to play it. I let them, They seemed impressed.
I traded it for a 412 simply because I felt like I couldn't hold it, get comfortable.
I wish I had it now, bet I could get comfortable. Financial restraints dictate much in our lives.
Play one, see what you think, mine was bright but bassy, not a real word.
I didn't read other posts to this thread because I felt like I needed to give an honest opinion., uncolored.
Did Strummin, chime in yet he's an ovangol fan.
Rick
P.S I actually had a DN4, which was renamed a 410 after it was a 410 to begin with?
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Thank you, everyone, for your very helpful responses. Based on these responses and those of others I have queried, who have owned both the Taylor 410 and Martin D-18, there isn't enough of a difference between the two guitars to justify me purchasing a 410, primarily because I was really hoping to get something sounding more like Rosewood to complement the Mahogany of my D-18. So, I'm going to keep looking - probably for a used Taylor with Rosewood.
Thanks again!
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Thank you, everyone, for your very helpful responses. Based on these responses and those of others I have queried, who have owned both the Taylor 410 and Martin D-18, there isn't enough of a difference between the two guitars to justify me purchasing a 410, primarily because I was really hoping to get something sounding more like Rosewood to complement the Mahogany of my D-18. So, I'm going to keep looking - probably for a used Taylor with Rosewood.
Thanks again!
Maybe you can find a 410 LTD (Rosewood)...it would be satin finish and in the right price range.
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Thank you, everyone, for your very helpful responses. Based on these responses and those of others I have queried, who have owned both the Taylor 410 and Martin D-18, there isn't enough of a difference between the two guitars to justify me purchasing a 410, primarily because I was really hoping to get something sounding more like Rosewood to complement the Mahogany of my D-18. So, I'm going to keep looking - probably for a used Taylor with Rosewood.
Thanks again!
Maybe you can find a 410 LTD (Rosewood)...it would be satin finish and in the right price range.
Here's a used 2003 410ce rosewood on ebay for an amazing price...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-410CE-2003-Special-Order-Rosewood-w-Grover-Tuners-/151604278543?pt=Guitar&hash=item234c51b50f