Bad news for my ES

[forhim]

Got my new (well used) Fishman Pro (600w) amp and it's great...though my ES system is totally not happening.  Line level noise prevents me from turning the gain up on my amp.  The sssssssssssssssssssssssss that comes out of the ES system is totally not gonna work.

Don't get me wrong....the guitar that I'm playing, an '09 414ce-LTD is a wonderful guitar.  It's just a shame that electronics can make a great guitar sound super cheap.

So here's what I did...

1. tried the guitar straight into the amp...both channels...hiss
2. ran through my lr baggs venue di going 1/4 pin out...hiss
3. ran through lr baggs venue di going xlr out into xlr in...hiss
4. actually changed the ES preamp (same model)...hiss

This is how I determined it wasn't the amp...

1. unplugged everything and turned up gain and master volume...nothing (although reaching the max of the gain stage and volume produce some sound...but no hiss
2. plugged in a mic and cranked gain and volume...no hiss
3. called Taylor customer service...twice

The first time I called the rep was nice but only told me, "The ES has a noise floor and there's really nothing we can do about it."  I asked whether the 2010 upgrade addressed these issues...he said "No."

I called customer service again and the next rep was much more giving of information.  Again he mentioned the noise floor and suggested a new battery, etc.  So I followed his instructions even to the point of trying out a completely different ES preamp.

I've seen numerous other posts on ES issues and I really want to like it, but alas it's development seems far from final.  I guess I have a hard time believing that something both Taylor (renowed for their focus on great and consistent products) as well as Rupert Neve (a renowned developer of sound equipment) would be satisfied with any kind of "noise floor."

Incidentally, going through the Venue DI, I decided to exploit the gain stage on the Venue as much as possible.  With the ES volume at detent I could never get the gain on the Venue to show red even with the hardest strumming.  Even with a new battery, the signal level wasn't as hot as it should have been, IMHO.

I've decided to order an lr baggs anthem system.  I've spent a combined 2-3 hours on the phone with Brian from LR Baggs and he is the most knowledgeable and patient customer service rep I've ever had the pleasure of speaking with.  They've told me that if the Anthem doesn't work in my situation, they would help me get the components I need without any extra charge.

As for the ES...it will be removed and I will be purchasing this...

http://www.truplugusa.com/

...to facilitate the ES removal and anthem install

What a bummer...but here's to no line level noise....hope the Baggs comes through.

[jalbert]

I am sorry to hear of your problems with the ES. I am curious: have you tried another guitar through the new amp? Ideally you could try another Taylor with the ES, and a guitar with a Fishman or other brand of electronics. This will possibly rule out a problem with your pre-amp. I am also curious whether you've tried the guitar with a full band going--you might not notice the noise floor when the volume level is loud.

[forhim]

I've not tried another guitar because I only have the one...trying another ES preamp (same model number though) is basically like trying another ES equipped guitar. 

The line level noise would most assuredly be covered up by the band...but it would not just go through the amp but if the DI were used the line level noise would also go into the PA.

The only other source I've put through the amp was the mic and, like I said, I cranked it up.

The band is very particular about gear running well...all things considered of course.  One cannot control circumstances that are present say at a gig.  But, identifying problems before a gig, should give us an advantage so we are not dealing with things like this.

The amp would likely get used in the bands more acoustic settings (2 acoustic guitars and an acoustic bass) and the line noise would be very disrupting. 

[michaelw]

i was just wondering if your guitar exhibited the same concern with the 130W loud box
that you mentioned in your 'diamond in the rough' thread, which will hopefully be moved here -
a ground fault test plug to check the outlet the amp is being powered from would verify a good ground &
if there is a ground-lift or 'phase-switch in your signal chain, have other settings made any difference at all

an a/b box, with nothing plugged into the second channel should eliminate the noise floor ('mute')
when the guitar is not being placed, but i'm unsure if there might be a 'pop' through the system

i may have missed this & if so, i apologize - if the guitar was purchased new, i would contact an
authorized repair center in your area or if there is a good tech that can submit warranty claims

since you have the 9V system, an upgrade to the 2010 single body sensor with discrete pre-amp, would be a very viable
alternative & if it is something you feel you can install yourself, then the $ for the 'updated' system itself is very reasonable

either way, i am sorry for the issues & frustration you are experiencing & the Anthem is a fine system, imho -
i hope that you are able to resolve the concerns & are able to have the plugged in tone you desire soon

[forhim]

I think it did...though I don't remember...I really only used it once and I don't remember...it's possible the gain was very low and the volume was up on the guitar channel.

I haven't messed with ground lift, etc...I will when I get home.

The a/b is an option, but the noise is just disconcerting even when playing

I thought about the ES upgrade...the GC6 I had has the upgrade and I liked it but I just wish the folks at Taylor could provide me with better answers.  Granted they cannot diagnose a guitar accurately over the phone but the information given on the new preamp wasn't enough to cause me to order it and the new harness.  LR Baggs on the other hand would have stayed on the phone with me for what seemed like forever...I always hang up with them knowing so much more than I did before I called.

Like I mentioned before, trying a completely different preamp is almost like trying a different guitar...granted it's running through the same harness, battery, etc.

Thanks for your help

[forhim]

UPDATE:

Got home and took at my wife's $XXX Luna guitar with a no namame active pickup system in it.  Here are the conditions of my test:

1. Took Luna guitar plugged it in and set volume on pickup to 3 o'clock with everything flat
2. Set gains on venue DI until I got clip meter occasionally showing red
3. Went to amp (muted) and set gain to blink occasionally red
4. Unmute and turned up master volume
5. Tried out guitar strumming and picking...turned volumes way up until at feedback and then backed off

Conclusion: yes there was some noise but very little compared to

Taylor ES plugged in at exact same settings...conclusion:

ES system was MUCH weaker and the noise almost overpowered the flat picking.

Totally not usable...I hope you guys ate having better success with your ES system.  I really like the way they sound, if only the noise wasn't there!

As far as buying the 2010 preamp and harness,  not convinced I want to spend the money on a product even the Taylor reps seemed to steer me away from...especially when the lr baggs guys spent SO much time with me on the phone.

Love Taylor guitars...IMHO it's best to stick with what one does best and leave the electronics to the pickup guys...this of course can't speak for all ES systems because I have to believe that there are some that are quite...the the Taylor rep's admission of noise, to me, is a concern.  Though like I mentioned before, I tried two different ES preamps.

Anthem shows up tomorrow...will begin preparations tonight. 

Looking forward to amplifying my fine 414-LTD through a pickup that only seeks to exploit te quality of the Taylor guitar!!

[DMBfan41]

Any chance it's the cable you're using from the guitar?

We had a guy at church who's guitar would create a terrible hiss through the system.  We must have spent weeks trying to diagnose before figuring out he was using a bad cable.  Our problems went away.

I had a similar issue with my ES and it turned out a loose sensor connection.  My guitar guy was able to fix it so now it sounds just the way it was meant.

[jalbert]

Your story reminded me of something. There's a huge difference in the output level between using a balanced and unbalanced cable with the ES. Hopefully you have or can get your hands on a cable that's TRS (stereo) on one end and XLR (balanced, mic connector) on the other. Taylor used to include these with ES-equipped guitars in years past. Use the TRS-XLR cable to the microphone input on the Loudbox. I think you'll notice a dramatic difference in the signal strength, which will be perceived as a lower noise floor.

[DMBfan41]

Your story reminded me of something. There's a huge difference in the output level between using a balanced and unbalanced cable with the ES. Hopefully you have or can get your hands on a cable that's TRS (stereo) on one end and XLR (balanced, mic connector) on the other. Taylor used to include these with ES-equipped guitars in years past. Use the TRS-XLR cable to the microphone input on the Loudbox. I think you'll notice a dramatic difference in the signal strength, which will be perceived as a lower noise floor.

+1.  Cables are the most unappreciated tools and often overlooked or ignored.  While a cable may not fix the OP's issue, getting you got a good quality cable ensures what leaves point A arrives at point B and C and Z.

[not darth]

I'm no sound tech (but I should talk to a friend that is) but, couldn't one sample the hiss, then put it through circuitry that would invert the signal, overlay it and cancel it out? 
That's what noise cancelling earphones do, and the technology is even in refrigerators to cancel motor noise.  Surely ProTools or something could handle this issue.
-K

[forhim]

Thanks for the replies!

Cable from guitar to amp is a Mogami Gold 1/4 cable.  I used the same cable when testing the Luna guitar.

I remember Taylor saying that using a balanced 1/4 cable allows for 3db more volume.... Admittedly, I haven't used one for this guitar but I can give it a quick try... Both straight to the amp and through the venue DI.

Don't have any loose sensors...I wish it were that...I reconnected the preamp leads when I swapped it out during initial testing.

[Herb Hunter]

Have you tried a TRS to XLR cable plugged into the Ch. 2 XLR input? This would allow you to take advantage of the balanced output of the ES which reduces noise. An alternative would be to use the same cable plus a $20 Radio Shack impedance transformer plugged into either the Ch. 1 input or plugged into your LR Baggs Venue. 

[forhim]

I tried TRS to TRS straight into the amp this morning.  Results were the same.

I've yet to try the trs to xlr in, primarily because I'd like to leave channel two xlr open for a mic.

After today, and withe the removal of the ES system...I'm hoping all these issues will go away.

[Herb Hunter]

I tried TRS to TRS straight into the amp this morning.  Results were the same.

I've yet to try the trs to xlr in, primarily because I'd like to leave channel two xlr open for a mic.

After today, and withe the removal of the ES system...I'm hoping all these issues will go away.

A TRS to TRS cable, when plugging into an unbalanced input such as the one in your Fishman amp, is no different than a standard guitar cable because your amps input jack is only wired to connect to two of the three conductors of the TRS plug.

Think of the ES output as being a stereo one where the signals from the left and right channels are identical. When you plug your guitar into a balanced input like the mic input of your amp using a TRS to XLR cable, both of those "channels" are picked up by the amp's preamplifier. When you plug the ES output into the channel one whether you use a standard cable or a TRS to TRS cable, the amps preamp is only picking up one of those channels resulting in increased noise.

If you want to use a microphone in Ch. 2, you should try the impedance transformer I mentioned in my previous post. You can always return the transformer if you don't think it decreases the noise level sufficiently.

[forhim]

The ES system is now gone...so no trying it any longer.

The Anthem system is going strong so far...thank you all so much for your comments...I'll report my progress with the anthem.